Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
AFF or SL

 

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deltarush

Feb 25, 2005, 1:55 AM
Post #1 of 82 (3196 views)
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AFF or SL Can't Post

A big hiya to all!!!

Which is better course is better to do AFF or SL? My gut feeling is AFF as u learn quicker and have someone with u ?
Just want to know what other diveys think

may all ur spirits fly

deltarush


Peej  (B 2456)

Feb 25, 2005, 2:13 AM
Post #2 of 82 (3149 views)
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Re: [deltarush] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Hey there, welcome to DZ.com!

In my opinion, AFF for the exact reasons you've posted.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Feb 25, 2005, 6:03 AM
Post #3 of 82 (3117 views)
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Re: [deltarush] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

I still believe that S/L gives a more well rounded graduate. You have more canopy time, more exits, your not afraid to get out lowWink, you have more opportunity to learn spotting (a very lost art), you HAVE done it on your own which is a goal for many.

But, I "grew up" on T10's and ParaCommanders.Cool


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Feb 25, 2005, 6:05 AM
Post #4 of 82 (3114 views)
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Re: [deltarush] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

Please fill out as much of your profile as possible.

There are strengths and weaknesses to either instructional methodology.

AFF's main strength is you'll learn to fly your body better and faster. It's main weakness is information overload/performance anxiety. For some, the learning objectives for each dive overpower the enjoyment of freefall.

S/L's main strength is you'll learn to become a good parachutist before you become a good skydiver. As a result it'll take you 15-20 skydives to learn as much as what someone who went thru AFF in 8-10 dives.

The bottom line is that everyone learns differently and has different financial situations. No matter which methodology you choose, it takes a minimum of 25 skydives to get your "A" license and either method will *generally* arrive you at the same point with the same level of skill.


Ron

Feb 25, 2005, 7:45 AM
Post #5 of 82 (3092 views)
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Re: [deltarush] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Which is better course is better to do AFF or SL?

You have to define "better".

AFF is great if you have to learn right now! It has a very heavy focus on air skills, but in most cases it seems to leave out some canopy control, spotting and low exits.

SL is great for canopy control, spotting, and I have yet to see a student be afraid of a low exit like I have seen some AFF's students do. It takes longer, but time spent on a DZ can be a good thing.

I would put an average SL students spotting and canopy control skills up against most AFF students with the same number of jumps. The AFF guy will most likley have better air skills.

The thing is that spotting and canopy control will save your life...Points in time will not. Also, most people after the graduate really try and improve air skills...Most never try to learn to spot or work on flying a canopy better.

So if I had to pick one....It would be SL.

This is a hot topic, and now I will be yelled at by a bunch of folks that think AFF is better...Most of them learned AFF and have never seen a SL jump made.

Either program will teach you what you need to know to survive....I think the SL program does a better job of focusing on the important things that most ignore later.

Back when SL was the only way to learn...People knew how to spot...Today people just look for a green light.


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Feb 25, 2005, 7:57 AM
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Re: [deltarush] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

We need to get some students to go through both progressions and tell us which one they liked more. Wink


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 25, 2005, 8:08 AM
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Re: [Ron] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

To further your discussion Ron, I would argue that students coming from a proper tandem progression have better canopy skills at the same jump numbers then a SL or traditional AFF student since they were taught atleast twice hands on how to properly fly and flare a canopy by an experienced instructor.


Of course if that instructor slacked or didn't care, then they probably didn't learn that much, but good instructors vs. bad instructors is a different discussion.Wink


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Feb 25, 2005, 11:03 AM
Post #8 of 82 (3059 views)
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Re: [Ron] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Back when SL was the only way to learn...People knew how to spot...Today people just look for a green light.

But how hard it is to spot for a 4000' exit? If you're using a round, sure. Otherwise, seems like it would be harder to set the start of the jump run for a full Otter load going much faster at 15k.

Is SL really the difference back then, or is it that now jumpers have let GPS equipped pilots run the jump run? On a bigger plane, fewer opportunities to take charge of spotting even if the jumpers are so inclined.


cbain  (D 25839)

Feb 25, 2005, 11:18 AM
Post #9 of 82 (3053 views)
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Re: [Ron] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Which is better course is better to do AFF or SL?


So if I had to pick one....It would be SL.

This is a hot topic, and now I will be yelled at by a bunch of folks that think AFF is better...Most of them learned AFF and have never seen a SL jump made.

I'd have to agree with Ron even though I did AFF and have never seen a SL jump made. Laugh

But my husband went through SL (and did a lot of subsequent H&P's) and he has better canopy skills then me. CrazyI used to be better than him in the air but he's catching up to me in jump #'s and skills there too. Of course, I could just be slow too. Unsure

Christina


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 25, 2005, 11:44 AM
Post #10 of 82 (3042 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

>We need to get some students to go through both progressions
>and tell us which one they liked more.

I went through both. I liked AFF a lot more but learned a lot more in SL.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Feb 25, 2005, 11:50 AM
Post #11 of 82 (3037 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
But how hard it is to spot for a 4000' exit? If you're using a round, sure. Otherwise, seems like it would be harder to set the start of the jump run for a full Otter load going much faster at 15k.

Is SL really the difference back then, or is it that now jumpers have let GPS equipped pilots run the jump run? On a bigger plane, fewer opportunities to take charge of spotting even if the jumpers are so inclined.

GPS and so? If you have ground vision you should be able to check is that the right spot or not.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Feb 25, 2005, 11:57 AM
Post #12 of 82 (3032 views)
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Re: [deltarush] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

It depends.

You may read a lot about the technical side. Search the forums!

Financial side: both costs about the same, but AFF is more intensive, so you should have the money together...

It depends on the weather too. If the clouds are closing by 1500m ... you have no chance for AFF.
So if you have the money, possible good weather, free time AFF can be a better choice.


Ncrowe  (A 46781)

Feb 25, 2005, 12:00 PM
Post #13 of 82 (3031 views)
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Re: [billvon] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

The thing is that spotting and canopy control will save your life...Points in time will not. Also, most people after the graduate really try and improve air skills...Most never try to learn to spot or work on flying a canopy better.

I didn't learn anything about turning points during AFF. I did learn about flying my body, getting off my back, and maintaining headings etc. I can see how canopy skills can and will save your life but its the basic freefall control you learn in AFF that allow to be get comfortable in the air and freefall awarness is definetly a huge part of being a well rounded skydiver. I'm really suprised SL and AFF havent been combined into a 12-14 jump course that would allow one to hone canopy and freefall skills.


Ron

Feb 25, 2005, 12:18 PM
Post #14 of 82 (3029 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But how hard it is to spot for a 4000' exit?

Harder than most AFF grads can do.

In reply to:
Otherwise, seems like it would be harder to set the start of the jump run for a full Otter load going much faster at 15k.

The lessons learned at 4 grand carry to 15.
If you don't know how to spot from 4, you have no chance at 15.

In reply to:
Is SL really the difference back then, or is it that now jumpers have let GPS equipped pilots run the jump run?

Well it is a factor of single exits out of whatever plane you are flying. I had my students start spotting on jump #2. Bt the time the program was done they had learned to spot from either 10 or 13 grand. AFF does not do this...Plus I had the student through 12-18 jumps. AFF can be done in 7-9.

In reply to:
On a bigger plane, fewer opportunities to take charge of spotting even if the jumpers are so inclined.

Try getting out at 4 grand...they will let you spot.


Ron

Feb 25, 2005, 12:23 PM
Post #15 of 82 (3029 views)
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Re: [Ncrowe] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
didn't learn anything about turning points during AFF

You learned air skills...Which is the least important part of skydiving.

In reply to:
I can see how canopy skills can and will save your life but its the basic freefall control you learn in AFF that allow to be get comfortable in the air and freefall awarness is definetly a huge part of being a well rounded skydiver

Not dying will allow you to jump and learn those skills...Also like I said no one seems to go out and try to learn to spot..But they spend thousands on coaching, tunnel ect. With jumps freefall skills will come, without spotting practice spotting skills will not.

Do you know how to spot? Do you REALLY know how to spot? No offense, but unless you have done it 20-30 times I doubt it.

In reply to:
I'm really suprised SL and AFF havent been combined into a 12-14 jump course that would allow one to hone canopy and freefall skills.

The ISP tried that.

Some places have great Student programs...Other programs suck.

So if I had to choose what way my child would learn...S/L at a small DZ.


Ncrowe  (A 46781)

Feb 25, 2005, 12:28 PM
Post #16 of 82 (3026 views)
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Re: [Ron] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

 

No offense taking Ron but your right I can't spot for crap. I've always jumped large turbine planes with GPS spotting, I feel even If I could spot better no one is going to listen to what a 60 jump chump says, only thing i'm going to get is " GO GO GO GO " I do however make sure to check the spot to the best of my ability as well as look for other airplanes etc before I get out.


Ron

Feb 25, 2005, 12:30 PM
Post #17 of 82 (3025 views)
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Re: [Ncrowe] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No offense taking Ron but your right I can't spot for crap

Please go to a small DZ and learn.

In reply to:
I feel even If I could spot better no one is going to listen to what a 60 jump chump says, only thing i'm going to get is " GO GO GO GO "

Hell, I know how to spot and have 3,000 jumps and I get yelled at...Let em yell.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Feb 25, 2005, 1:15 PM
Post #18 of 82 (3016 views)
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Re: [Ron] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
But how hard it is to spot for a 4000' exit?

Harder than most AFF grads can do.
In reply to:

I did for the 5500 and 3500 HnP requires for the A. At that height, the Barn and surrounding fields at the student area at Skydance are huge. Even making the error of spotting, THEN climbing out onto the 182 step, no problem at all. Same for the simulated emergency on the 3500 where it was open the door and get the fuck out.

so that's why I asked. Even if you screw up where the level horizon is, you can't be that far off, can you? Whereas a 10k freefall can involve significant wind drift and looking 10-20degrees off vertical at 15 will cause significant error.

Until I got past the first of the unstable manuevers, I shyed away from the door, so no spotting for me. I'd have to say SL has got to be better for clearing away the issue of door fear. And having 10k extra feet to work with made exits less important, so it was quite a while before I considered myself having basic competency. SL would have forced that quick, or washed me out.

The part I don't like is that if you screw up and have some sort of problem on a 3500, you don't have very much time to fix it, and no seasoned AFF-I backing you up. Seems rough for someone on their first 10 jumps.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 25, 2005, 1:24 PM
Post #19 of 82 (3011 views)
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Re: [Ncrowe] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

>I can see how canopy skills can and will save your life but its the basic
>freefall control you learn in AFF that allow to be get comfortable in the air . . .

You learn a LOT more about getting stable in SL. You don't even get to freefall until you can demonstrate a stable exit, something many AFF grads can't do.

>I'm really suprised SL and AFF havent been combined into a 12-14
>jump course that would allow one to hone canopy and freefall skills.

It's actually a 25 jump course called the ISP. Most people don't want to pay the extra money.


mattjw916  (D License)

Feb 25, 2005, 1:29 PM
Post #20 of 82 (3011 views)
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Re: [Ron] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Try getting out at 4 grand...they will let you spot.

I have found this to be true even at big DZs like Eloy. I spent almost 5 days last fall doing nothing but H&Ps there working on canopy flight. I'd look for the light generally but would wait until I was where I wanted to be before I jumped and not a single person ever bitched about the extra 3-5 seconds I waited while the green light was on.

Don't think it's going to happen on the weekends though, or when it is otherwise busy. Wink


sunshine  (D License)

Feb 25, 2005, 2:51 PM
Post #21 of 82 (2995 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
We need to get some students to go through both progressions and tell us which one they liked more.

I did go though both student programs. S/L definitely focuses more on canopy control which is waaaay important. I also learned to spot which most jumpers never really learn to do. Once i got into my 45 second freefalls is where i had trouble. Thats why i switched over to AFP (a form of AFF). I consider myslef lucky for going through both programs. They both have their pros and cons, but overall i think SL is the way to go.


(This post was edited by sunshine on Feb 25, 2005, 2:56 PM)


Superman32  (B 28074)

Feb 25, 2005, 5:05 PM
Post #22 of 82 (2966 views)
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Re: [sunshine] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm currently going through AFF with the tandem progression and I really like it.
For me, the tandems were a great way to get more comfortable with the idea of stepping off that door and skydiving in general.
P.S. I have never seen a SL jump or really know anything about it. It is just what I have experienced.


firstime  (B 28972)

Feb 25, 2005, 6:25 PM
Post #23 of 82 (2952 views)
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Re: [deltarush] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

good post, i did AFF but had to do a HP from 4500k
I always pulled @ 45 so the fact of getting out @ 45
then pull meant I was well below my normal pull alti.
Moving foward, the guys @ my DZ all did S/L in a real small DZ (we have since moved to a mega DZ)/
These guys are super great canopy pilots because of
the small landing area. I can't answer this question
but the above statement sort of answers half of the
post.

this season will be devoted to canopy control ONLY.
I learned how to fall, it's time to fly


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Feb 25, 2005, 9:11 PM
Post #24 of 82 (2938 views)
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Re: [deltarush] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

My daughter started skydiving last summer and went S/L instead of AFF. What's the most important thing to do in skydiving? Answer: get an open canopy over your head and then make a safe landing with it. SL lets you practice those two skills with few other distractions. I like that approach.

Also, Dad (me) is a current s/l instructor and TM, but long expired AFF rating, Mom is also a S/L instructor, so we went s/l.


bch7773  (C License)

Feb 25, 2005, 9:45 PM
Post #25 of 82 (2935 views)
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Re: [deltarush] AFF or SL [In reply to] Can't Post

search the forums... AFF vs SL has been beat to death, but theres a lot of good threads discussing them.


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