Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
are reverse risers safe

 


syntax  (A 8303)

Feb 2, 2005, 8:30 PM
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are reverse risers safe Can't Post

 I,m very close to ordering my fist custom container and had decided on an Atom Ledgend.The only thing putting me off is what Ive been reading about cut away problems with reverse risers or rather the potential for problems.What is the general feeling towards them?Has anyone had a bad experience solely attributed to them?


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Feb 2, 2005, 8:58 PM
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Re: [syntax] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

No! Since they came up with reinforced Type 17 risers there is not reason to use reverse risers.

Sparky


DexterBase  (D 29697)

Feb 2, 2005, 11:00 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Reverse risers? The same thing as "integrity" risers?

If you're BASE jumping then you should be using reverse risers.


Liemberg  (Student)

Feb 2, 2005, 11:06 PM
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Re: [syntax] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Has anyone had a bad experience solely attributed to them?

Yes, an English girl in Australia - but I don't think reversed risers was the only issue there...

Supposedly, low drag mals (bag lock etc.) might get stuck when you are (slightly) headdown during the cutaway. With the harness rings in the right place as is the case with rigs designed for reversed risers, like the Atom it seems a non issue.

Just remember (when swapping canopies) the risers belong to the rig, not to the parachute!

Normal 'non-reversed' risers don't have this issue and the reason for reversed risers has gone since there are better building techniques for normal risers than there were when reversed risers were invented.

Don't know if the French found out about that, already... Tongue


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
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Feb 2, 2005, 11:08 PM
Post #5 of 21 (2847 views)
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Re: [syntax] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

They're fine on the Atom due to the placement of the main ring higher on the shoulder.

Other rigs, with the main ring on the front of the shoulder can trap the middle rig and make release of the main difficult - or impossible.

t


pbla4024  (C 2033)

Feb 2, 2005, 11:18 PM
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Re: [Liemberg] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

But she used integrity riser non compatible with harness (Javelin). Rings should be a bit higher for harness with integrity risers.


masher  (D 3806)

Feb 3, 2005, 12:05 AM
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Re: [syntax] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

!!! 200 jump wonder !!!


The only trouble that I've seen/heard is from reverse risers being used on harnesses that aren't designed for them.

If the manufacturer designs a rig to use reverse risers, then it should be OK.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Feb 3, 2005, 5:17 AM
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Re: [Tonto] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
They're fine on the Atom due to the placement of the main ring higher on the shoulder.

That helps, but you still lose the 50% decrease in forces from the locking loop doing a 180 through the small ring. There is no reason to skydive w/ reverse or integrity risers.

Derek


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 3, 2005, 5:42 AM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

I asked Bill Booth - you know, the Zed Zed Top-looking dude who invented the 3-Ring release - this same question last month.
Bill replied that the reversed risers he tested varied between 20% and 80% the strength of (1998 pattern) Type 17 risers.
Since there is no published standard, determining whether you got a strong or weak pair is difficult.
The other issue with reversed risers is that they may work great when the harness is worn by its first owner, but as soon as anyone else dons that harness, all the dimensions (i.e. height of 3-Ring relative to shoulder) change.
Reversed risers were one possible solution to a problem, however, 3-Ring Inc. (Jump Shack, Rigging Innovations, etc.) subsequently invented better solutions.
Reversed risers are now just amusing antiques.
The sooner they fall out of fashion, the better.


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Feb 3, 2005, 5:42 AM
Post #10 of 21 (2729 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed.

The leverage advantage of "regular" 3 rings is lost.

I've used them in the past - but won't ever do so again.

t


Designer  (D 5771)

Feb 3, 2005, 6:54 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the info.Been serious thinking about replacement of my reverse risers for standard risers with the harder cut-away housings for safety.Like they say $120 for a new set of risers is alot better than not being able to cut-away!rob


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 3, 2005, 8:40 AM
Post #12 of 21 (2638 views)
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Re: [syntax] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What is the general feeling towards them?

They suck.


There is really no good reason for reverse mini risers any more.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Feb 3, 2005, 9:09 AM
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Re: [syntax] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

If you ask europeans, they say reversed risers are fine.
If you ask americans, they say they are not.

Just generalizing an itty bit here Wink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Feb 3, 2005, 10:53 AM
Post #14 of 21 (2569 views)
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Re: [syntax] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Reverse risers can lead to harder cutaways during high-load malfunctions (like spinners) since there is one less step of mechanical advantage.

Reverse risers can lead to non-cutaways during certain low drag malfunctions if the rig is not designed for the risers.

Standard risers used to have a strength issue due to the hole in the riser for the grommet, and compared to them, reverse risers are stronger. This is no longer the case with modern (reinforced) risers.

When dragging your rig during packing, standard risers can incur wear on their white loop since it contacts the ground during packing. Reverse risers do not have this issue.

Personally, I've used mostly standard risers. I use a set of reverse risers on a larger canopy that I use for my wingsuit rig and have never had a problem with them. When they wear out I'll replace them with standard risers.


sdctlc  (D 16437)

Feb 3, 2005, 7:42 PM
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Re: [syntax] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

 there seems to be periodically a discussion about "Integrity" or "reverse" risers and seems to create a bit of buzz on the net now and then. The one key thing to remember is that if you use them you will not notice a difference in their use during normal jumping BUT there are some situations that need thought regarding your EP's. One example of a difference you need to think about is created by a reduced angle between the rings on the "reversed risers" and the reserve riser. This can restrict the "open" space needed to allow the "reversed" 3-ring system to unfold releasing the main. This is where the talk of incompatability comes into play. RI Flexon for example, of which I have owned 3 and jumped for may years, had the option for reversed risers, which I also had for a number of years (not any more and the story below will tell why). The location of the rings on the MLW with all of my Flexon's was much "higher" on the shoulder, i.e. more at the top of the shoulder compared to Jav, vec, or really any other rig. This gave a good deal more of the "Open" space for the reversed risers release when needed from a open malfunctioning main...

There are a number of ways to have a problem happen regarding the cutaway with reversed risers though. Some have been mentioned including the mechanical advantage issue for the cutaway. You can run into a problem if the reserve is deploying while under an open main. We all know that the opening sequence of the reserve lifts its risers off the shoulder and the reserve riser becomes progressively closer to the "reversed" main riser rings if the main is not yet cut away.

Now from my own personal experience I was under my open main then realized my reserve was going out. I looked over my shoulder to see the freebag going to line stretch and my first thought was "shit" so I cut the main away before the reserve was open, thinking "quick chop fall under the reserve, canopy transfer all will be good!!"". Right???? WRONG!!!, a second later found myself looking up at a "Cut Away Main Main/Reserve Bi-Plane" with the cut away handle in my hand and cables dangling. Second thought: "WTF, this is not what I was expecting!" Luck had all ending good and that is a different story. I bring this up as something to think about regarding reversed risers

The reverse risers are out there, not so popular now but they are still around. You need to think about the differences with EP's brought about with this type of riser. Have your emergency procedures thought out regarding different situations that may be generated by the reversed risers. It is not always as simple as cut away - deploy reserve every time. If you use decide to get reversed risers great, if you dont great, but be aware how these risers might fit into your emergency procedures and beaware of the rig you jump in regards to the manufacturers stand on these risers.... One should carefully think about the different problems that can come about with reversed risers. I dont jump them any more, have a set in my gear bag but not on anything...

Blue Skies,
Scott C.


syntax  (A 8303)

Feb 3, 2005, 8:15 PM
Post #16 of 21 (2464 views)
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Re: [syntax] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for all your advice.I will look into the option of standard risers on the Atom.It would be a shame not to have what I think is an awesome looking rig because of the safety concerns regarding these risers.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Feb 3, 2005, 8:43 PM
Post #17 of 21 (2455 views)
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Re: [syntax] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Many year ago the Bearded Man from the south came up with an "Idea". The 3-ring circus main canopy release system. And it worked real dandy.

Every few years someone thinks they have a better idea and try to improve on the "circus". There were mini rings, mini risers, soft housings and reversed risers. All of the ideas have done one of two things. They have reduced the effectiveness of the system or the strength of the system.

The 3-ring release is a system. You change one of the components and you change the system. If it ain't broken, why fix it?

Sparky


Courteney  (D 24)

Feb 3, 2005, 8:47 PM
Post #18 of 21 (2455 views)
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Re: [syntax] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Well quite a few of us jump reverse risers at our dz.
And in spinning mals and a coupla bag locks we have found no problems with them.

I'm sure your body position at the time of a mal has something to do with it. In a baglock situation, there is a good chance of being put into a stand up, (won't happen all the time I know), if you're in that position, then the 3 rings should work whatever direction they're facing. Maintenance of the risers has something to do with too.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Feb 3, 2005, 9:36 PM
Post #19 of 21 (2445 views)
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Re: [Courteney] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well quite a few of us jump reverse risers at our dz.

That fact doesn't make them any safer. Why do you use them instead of the normal ones?

Sparky


Dougjumper  (B License)

Feb 3, 2005, 11:05 PM
Post #20 of 21 (2435 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That fact doesn't make them any safer. Why do you use them instead of the normal ones?
My Question exactly. Seems to be a slowing Fad and I always thought they looked kinda out of place etc..


xpug  (D 103237)

Feb 4, 2005, 5:09 AM
Post #21 of 21 (2385 views)
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Re: [sdctlc] are reverse risers safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are a number of ways to have a problem happen regarding the cutaway with reversed risers though. Some have been mentioned including the mechanical advantage issue for the cutaway. You can run into a problem if the reserve is deploying while under an open main. We all know that the opening sequence of the reserve lifts its risers off the shoulder and the reserve riser becomes progressively closer to the "reversed" main riser rings if the main is not yet cut away.

I witnessed one situation where an unsuccessful cutaway was compounded by reverse risers.

The person cutaway their main but failed to extract the full length of the cutaway cables (short arms). The right riser released but the left stayed put. The reserve was deployed almost instantly after the cutaway (no RSL).

The main was then trailing behind as the reserve risers came out. They butted up against the left main riser (which was being pulled backwards against the reserve riser), somewhat 'locking' the three rings in place as Scott hints at.

That turned into a reserve with line twists and a main dragging behind, which led to an uncontrollable descent. Miraculously, they escaped with only bruises.

Since then I have modified my EP's to ensure that my main risers have detached before deploying the reserve.

Knowing what I do now, I'm also sure that the risers would release should I have two-out. The main issue in this situation was not cutting away properly, but the reverse risers compounded it.

I thought about switching, but after consulting with a rigger and watching a re-enactment in a suspended harness, I am sure they are safe, given the correct EP's.

There have been no other reported incidents of this type that we could find or that had been bought to the attention of PdF.

However, please be aware of this specific situation if you do have reverse risers.


(This post was edited by xpug on Feb 4, 2005, 5:27 AM)



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