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Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera?

 

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Poll: Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera?
100 tandems 10 / 18%
250 tandems 9 / 16%
500 tandems 23 / 40%
1000 tandems 9 / 16%
list of skills 6 / 11%
57 total votes
 
riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jan 23, 2005, 5:55 AM
Post #1 of 59 (3885 views)
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Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? Can't Post

This question arose during PIA 2005.

What is the minimum experience level before a Tandem Instructor should strap on a hand-mounted camera?

Initially the Australian Parachute Federation specified a minimum of 500 tandems, briefing by Chief Instructor, a training jump with a licensed jumper, etc.
In 2004, APF reduced their minimum to 100 tandem jumps.
We all know that numbers lie and jump numbers are only a crude measure of skill levels because some jumpers just bore "X" number of holes in the sky, while their colleagues practice specific skills on each dive.

Maybe I should have posed the question: "Which skills should a TI demonstrate before he/she can strap on a hand-mounted camera?"
... 10 stable exits in a row?
... zero roll-overs on landing?
... has successfully handled a tandem malfunction?
... 100 handles checks in a row?
... has achieved 'zen' at tandems?
... has achieved 'autonomy' at tandems?
... has achieved 'mindlessness' at tandems?
... has achieved 'base form' at tandems?

We will only listen to responses from TIs who have done more than 100 tandems.


tandemphil  (D 26626)

Jan 23, 2005, 6:22 AM
Post #2 of 59 (3871 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

My personal preference is not to wear a handycam at all. I have a little over 1000 tandems and I don't like the video that the handycams get. If the video from a handycam were to be edited together with video from an outside camera flyer I could see the point. We could actually produce some interesting videos that way. But, I have never seen that done at any dropzone. Right now, it seems to me that handycams are just another way to scam a few $$'s out of the customers without providing a high quality end product. Hey, instead of strapping an altimeter on the students hand, why don't we give them the handicam? The end result won't be much worse than the footage I have seen those things produce so far.


Liemberg  (Student)

Jan 23, 2005, 7:08 AM
Post #3 of 59 (3861 views)
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Re: [tandemphil] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

You sure about that?
some pics from a handcam
(edited to remove video link that didn't work, I'm working on it and you can approach it through my homepage and polish up on your dutch - click 'video's' and click the clickies you find untill a mediaplayer video starts, don't forget to scroll down)

Though I have a small "bulletcam"-setup it IS a distraction. However, with my setup, the distraction is in the briefing (camera is in a pouch on passengers belly) and during hook-up in the plane (connecting the camera, starting to film) - take a bit more time in the beginning and there will be no problem.
In freefall-under-drogue filming is easy, on exit you forget the camera. I would not want a Mini-DV cam on a glove - just picture slammer +5G opening and that thing pivoting on your hand... you look up at a couple of broken suspension lines and have just seriously sprained the pulse of your left-hand.
Luckily the RSL saves you and now you start to wonder if you will be able to flare the hell out of this beast all by yourself, with your left hand hurting like hell - No thanks...

But even with my toy, I would say 100 and "talented in the realm of multitasking"


(This post was edited by Liemberg on Jan 23, 2005, 7:20 AM)
Attachments: Picture 101.jpg (103 KB)


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jan 23, 2005, 10:07 AM
Post #4 of 59 (3834 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

(hi-jacking thread) Tell us about the stills. Where is your trigger? (/hi-jacking thread)


(This post was edited by Andrewwhyte on Jan 23, 2005, 10:08 AM)


Liemberg  (Student)

Jan 23, 2005, 10:32 AM
Post #5 of 59 (3832 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Tell us about the stills. Where is your trigger?
My 'trigger' is a button on my Sony PC6 that says 'photo'. Basically you replay what you have on Mini-DV tape and push it when your favorite scene comes along...Photo is written to a memory stick and uploadable to your computer as a JPG (through USB connection)
Tongue

Disadvantage - it gives you a 640x480 image - good enough to impress your friends behind a monitor, lousy when you want a print larger than 9x13cm...

Still interested? PM me for URL on where to get a bulletcam that works with any AV-in camera
(they take mastercard and ship worldwide...)

edit: My old one was a PC-6 This is all made with PC105E. If you have a sony with a memory-stick and USB out + DV-out + AV-in this should work the way I described.


(This post was edited by Liemberg on Jan 23, 2005, 1:48 PM)


skydiverjerry  (D 9092)

Jan 23, 2005, 12:52 PM
Post #6 of 59 (3803 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

you could leave the choice up to the tandem master, if they feel that the increased risk,s are negligable and they can still fly safly and do the drills witha handy cam ok if not they should not be forced or coersed into using one.
you could creat a rule were any dzo found to be coersing a ti into using a handy cam could be sanctioned.
just my thought


Liemberg  (Student)

Jan 23, 2005, 1:40 PM
Post #7 of 59 (3794 views)
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Re: [skydiverjerry] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
you could creat a rule were any dzo found to be coersing a ti into using a handy cam could be sanctioned.
I'm coersing them to do tandems anyway.
thank god most of em can be bribed into it.
Otherwise I had to do it all on my own.
That would suck. Tongue


skydiverjerry  (D 9092)

Jan 23, 2005, 9:07 PM
Post #8 of 59 (3762 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

hehehe

yep bribing them with cash should be iligal, if dzo's everfind out that tandems are fun for me i,ll be out of a job.

rules rules rules
new rule it is now against the rules to invent new rulesCool however ideas can be expressed but only if not designed to be a rule


(This post was edited by skydiverjerry on Jan 23, 2005, 9:08 PM)


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
Jan 24, 2005, 3:48 AM
Post #9 of 59 (3730 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What is the minimum experience level before a Tandem Instructor should strap on a hand-mounted camera?

According to the BPA, no-one can have enough experience, since they have forbidden their use. From Item 9a (Permissions) of the minutes from the British Parachute Association Safety and Training Committee meeting minutes of 10th June 2004

Quote:
A letter from Dave Emerson went out with the agenda proposing that a hand cam arm/wrist mounted video camera be accepted for use by Tandem Instructors with a minimum of 500 Tandem jumps and CCIs approval. At the last meeting Dave handed out a number of CDs containing video footage of the hand cam in use. Dave was present at the meeting and was able to provide further details of his request to the Committee.

Following some discussion on this request, a counter proposal was tabled by Phil Cavanagh and seconded by Paul Hollow a hand cam may not be accepted for use by Tandem Instructors.

For: 9 Against: 7 Abstentions: 2
Carried


Liemberg  (Student)

Jan 24, 2005, 6:42 AM
Post #10 of 59 (3712 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
According to the BPA, no-one can have enough experience, since they have forbidden their use.

Wow!

O well, they do live on an island, don't they? Smile

I can see them having trouble with a camera-on-a-glove but do you know if they also have considered my setup?

Hey, we survived 6 (only got the setup working at the end of last season) - that should count for something, shouldn't it? Smile

Anybody wanna bet how long it will take them to revoke that descision due to new technology?

(MPEG-4 video camera's with 4 GB harddisk, small and weighting next to nothing - all sorts of lightweight camera's with MPEG capability and 1 GB-cards, enough to film the jump-exit-to-landing...)
Attach big altimaster 2 at passengers shoulder, build sturdy glove, push button prior to exit...



dragon2  (D 101989)

Jan 24, 2005, 7:44 AM
Post #11 of 59 (3696 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
O well, they do live on an island, don't they? Smile

And you don't?! Tongue

We don't have any rules here yet concerning handcams do we? Or rather, same rules as regular camera's? Or are there recommended practices for TI's like 'don't jump with a camara guy untill you have 25 tandem jumps' etc? Oh well, I think we have way too much rules here as-is.... Crazy


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
Jan 24, 2005, 7:50 AM
Post #12 of 59 (3694 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can see them having trouble with a camera-on-a-glove but do you know if they also have considered my setup?

No, they just considered the camera-glove like the one's produced by Total Control or Rob, although myself and some other tandem instructors have considered doing something similar with bullet cams as we have had some experience with them when BASE jumping. However, I'm a weekend warrior with barely 200 tandems so I might give it a while yet before I have a go. My issue was managing the camera deck itself. We considered slinging the camera under the armpit (I know you've said before Rob, but what do you do?), but comfort was a worry (although the cameras are getting smaller all the time) or having it on the front of the student. Have you extended the plug(s) to make it easier to connect and disconnect? Also, are you using a CamEyeII? Leaving the camera in standby and having a remote operation and indication of recording makes it a lot easier and more reliable. A Tandem Instructor at our dropzone occasionally has his students wearing his World Team mass jump streamers for deployment under canopoy without issue, but it is another factor and therefore risk.

The problem with legislation is that it usually harder to undo that it is to put it in place. Also, with it not specifically describing the hand-cam as the whole camera on the hand rather than just the lens, it gives those who don't understand, the reason not to allow it.


(This post was edited by cpoxon on Jan 24, 2005, 7:51 AM)


Liemberg  (Student)

Jan 24, 2005, 12:03 PM
Post #13 of 59 (3654 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And you don't?! Tongue

I do, I do - but at least we have the same currency - theirs is 1,58 times ours and thats when I grab a calculator. And I didn't mention feet and pounds and stones and inches and yards... Crazy


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jan 24, 2005, 1:46 PM
Post #14 of 59 (3640 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
And you don't?! Tongue

I do, I do - but at least we have the same currency - theirs is 1,58 times ours and thats when I grab a calculator. And I didn't mention feet and pounds and stones and inches and yards... Crazy

I forget, how many stone in a furlong?


Liemberg  (Student)

Jan 24, 2005, 4:35 PM
Post #15 of 59 (3620 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Have you extended the plug(s) to make it easier to connect and disconnect? Also, are you using a CamEyeII? Leaving the camera in standby and having a remote operation and indication of recording makes it a lot easier and more reliable.
Wasn't neccesary to extend the plugs. Cable of the camera was long enough to go through the sleeve of my arm, over the passengers shoulder onto two plugs sticking out of the pouch (a sort of ski bag)
Cam Eye II doesn't work that well - bummer. (shows record / pause / stop, doesn't permit starting with its remote-button, that could be a PC105E thing though) You start taping by pushing the button on the small screen of the sony. When you close that screen the button is 'inside' so it keeps taping. Then you close AND LOCK the ski-bag.
Yes - you throw away the first five minutes of the film, but who is counting when you can re-use the tape? Under canopy you twist the camera a quarter turn for a more natural image (if you don't do this it is either sideways in freefall or under canopy)
We are gonna call it 'budget video'. You lose some quality but the math is what it is - one slot less in the plane. You sell more video since you offer it at less than half price from a normal video.

Then again we DO have a dedicated computer editor - sixteen years old, wanting to skydive but seriously lacking funds - otherwise it would be to much of a hassle.
(For me at last, there are limits to multitasking Smile )

Note from the video-editor: "Footage needs a bit more work than usual but is enough to make a nice film, film becomes even better if I tape additional ground footage with other camera..."


lewmonst  (D 24575)

Jan 24, 2005, 5:18 PM
Post #16 of 59 (3612 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't like the handycam. I wouldn't want to use it for all the points we've all mentioned already. I agree the bullet cam is better than a wrist mount, but it's still a distraction and all that more to deal with in the plane and on hook-up. It's ok for some TI's, but not for me. Maybe my opinion will change when I have 1000 more tandems and I get an extra $50 for doing it... but not likely.
I do like the list of required skills before doing it, for those that are going to do it. I hope I'm never at a dz that pressures TI's to do it. I also hope the videographer's role is never eliminated.

peace
lew


Liemberg  (Student)

Jan 25, 2005, 7:48 AM
Post #17 of 59 (3560 views)
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Re: [lewmonst] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I get an extra $50 for doing it

Keep dreaming... Tongue (Now if it were your own setup with camcorder, bulletcam, video-editing computer etcetera it would be a different matter but even then... Anybody making $50 on a camerajump, get all the toys from the DZ AND the jump for free? I think not...)

Quote:
I hope I'm never at a dz that pressures TI's to do it.{...} I also hope the videographer's role is never eliminated.

When I'm advertising it (as I will be shortly) I'm not going to cope with tandemmasters that refuse to do it. You don't jump with this easy set-up that has no safety issues at all?*) Then, in all likelihood, you don't jump tandem for me...

The videographers role will not be eliminated but I'm afraid it will be reduced...

*) Starting the hookup one-and-a-halve minute earlier isn't a safety issue, it's an inconvenience...


lewmonst  (D 24575)

Jan 25, 2005, 10:12 AM
Post #18 of 59 (3549 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

I doubt I'll ever be looking for work in the Netherlands. I'm very happy where I'm at anyway. But I hope it continues to work out for you and your dropzone and it doesn't cause any issues.
How much do you pay your TM's? (in equivalent US dollars?) With or without the handycam?

peace
lew


Liemberg  (Student)

Jan 25, 2005, 12:01 PM
Post #19 of 59 (3540 views)
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Re: [lewmonst] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How much do you pay your TM's? (in equivalent US dollars?)

"Their contribution is so invaluable that it is hard to put a monetary figure to it - so usually I try to avoid that..." Tongue

About $36,- per jump (either tandem or tandemcamera - but there's lots more tandem...) Figure doesn't mean much to you I guess cause here it is completely different what that dollar could buy you - less miles on the car but better health insurance, to name just one. Haven't negotiated the handcamfee yet, but I'll work something out. Lets say that they allways complain and nevertheless keep coming - I must be doing something right... Smile


brentcair  (D 14435)

Jan 26, 2005, 7:57 AM
Post #20 of 59 (3502 views)
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Re: [tandemphil] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

How many handcams have you shot


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jan 26, 2005, 8:16 AM
Post #21 of 59 (3497 views)
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Re: [brentcair] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How many handcams have you shot?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

More than 200 jumps with handi-mount.

I am still negotiating with my DZO as to whether he will pay CAN$40 or $45 per handi-cam video.
If I hand off the video for editing, $10 goes to the guy who dubs my footage onto VHS tape, along with music and titling.
For comparison, my DZO pays TIs $30 per jump without ...


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jan 26, 2005, 9:26 AM
Post #22 of 59 (3489 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

 The BPA dinosaur rolls on.......unbelievable.....they make something illegal that is common practice in many countries of the world....

What a joke...but typical.....I wonder why they bother allowing skydiving to happen at all....Dolts.....the lot of them....

There are plenty of places where handicam is done safely AND well......

I'd like to see the reasoning behind a ban.....I suppose they should ban hand and wrist mounted altimeters next.....

What a pack of cretins.......Crazy


Liemberg  (Student)

Jan 26, 2005, 12:26 PM
Post #23 of 59 (3471 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Dolts.....the lot of them....

Making friends and influencing people again, Tim? Smile


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jan 26, 2005, 3:43 PM
Post #24 of 59 (3461 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah man......but what tipped you off???Wink


aironscott

Jan 26, 2005, 5:20 PM
Post #25 of 59 (3453 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera? [In reply to] Can't Post

Rob-
Could you clarify a couple of things for me? You get paid $30 Canadian to do a tandem correct? You get $45 for tandem with handcam or an additional $45 for the hand cam? What does a a video guy get paid? Does it seem like I'm obsessed with getting paid?

As far as your original question on this thread my opinion is that TIs should have at least 100 tandems before they even attempt doing flips on exit. I don't think that most people reach tandem competence until 500 or so. Zen occurs no sooner than 1000. That being said, I think that once you get your rating you should be entitled to all of the benefits that go with it. I believe that it would be an excellent suggestion that TIs have a minimum of 100 tandems before they add a camera rating but there isn't enough research done on this subject to validate any actions at this point.

Blue Skies
Aaron


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