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Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long)

 

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feuergnom  (D License)

Jan 17, 2005, 5:16 PM
Post #1 of 73 (9203 views)
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Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) Can't Post

This is a tricky one and i hope to get some answers/feedback from riggers. The question I (and a lot of jumpers from Germany and Austria have) are not intended to slam a manufacturer or put a bad light on him, we are just trying to find answers
Although I'm quite fluent, English is not my first language - so don't slam me if someting is not as clearly formulated as it could be - ok?

To the mods: Feel free to move this to another forum if it is not appropriate here, I just thought it was the best place to discuss this issue.


Over at the stammtisch we have a heated dicsussion about this malfunction. Sorry it's German, but the pics and the video speak for themselves. This incident happened last August.

i know a lot of you will want to know what kind of gear was involved:

main: Demon (size approx 110)
reserve: Quick,
gear: Omega
manufacturer: performance variable = PV (German manuf.)
jumper: 1500, Instructor, Rigger


Rough translation of what happened (still - pics say way more than my words):
After pulling one of the outer lines got cought under the center flap which caused the main to spin rapidly. Cut away - but as you can see the reserve got tangled....

This has happened twice before to other jumpers, all of them survived with injuries.
the manufacturer of the gear was contacted after the first and second incident and stated that this kind of mal would be impossible. Well after this one they had proof it could and did happen (pic and vid).


Here you can see where the line got caught under the flap and the damage it did to the rig (might be of interest for riggers):

To make the long story short:
Officials met with the manufacturer - the outcome was questionable. PV didn't issue a security bulletin , "because it was late in the season", not much jumping during winter, not many rigs of that build around. They needed time for a solution - hence no grounding of the rig.
The Austrian riggers assoc. thought different and issued a safety bulletin - the discussion became a heated one.

Next step: PV stated that this incident happened due to sloppy packing and an instable pull and issued a new packing instruction for the rig and the canopy (Note: the owner is instructor, has 1.500 jumps and was team packer etc.). Plus they stated that this could happen to any other rig in the market.

so - finally - my questions:
• Can this kind of mal happen on any other rig?
• Has it happened in the past?
• If it has happened - what kind of rig?
• What was the reaction of the manufacturer? service bulletins/recall/improvements?

What i find questionable was how this whole story was handled


Again - i am not trying to slam PV. We and the others at stammtisch are trying to find some answers ñ even if they are unpleasant for us.

This post was made by feuergnom & BenediktDE


edit: stupid me - it should say: could this happen with any other rig (its damn late and i have to get some sleep)
Unsure

last edit: fixed thread title -------› off to bed

Edited by slotperfect to fix the clicky link. Cool


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Jan 17, 2005, 7:42 PM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 17, 2005, 6:06 PM
Post #2 of 73 (9065 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Can this kind of mal happen on any other rig?

It looks like the design of that #2 flap makes it too easy for a line to snag on it.

Quote:
Has it happened in the past?

It has happened from "free stowing" the lines. It is rare though. How did this jumper stow their lines?

Quote:
If it has happened - what kind of rig?

I don't know for sure. It had more to do with the stiffener in the end of the flap where the grommet is and free-stowing the lines. It looks like the #2 flap in this case has a snag point exactly where the other pictures show the line hooked on. Flaps shouldn't get any wider towards the grommet.

Quote:
What was the reaction of the manufacturer? service bulletins/recall/improvements?

Not as far as I know. Again, the only way I've ever heard of this happening was with old gear and free-stowed lines.

Quote:
the manufacturer of the gear was contacted after the first and second incident and stated that this kind of mal would be impossible.

Clearly not impossible.

Quote:
Officials met with the manufacturer - the outcome was questionable. PV didn't issue a security bulletin , "because it was late in the season", not much jumping during winter, not many rigs of that build around. They needed time for a solution - hence no grounding of the rig.

People are still jumping the rigs, right? This needs to be addressed before it happens again.

Quote:
PV stated that this incident happened due to sloppy packing and an instable pull

The video didn't show an unstable deployment.

Quote:
and issued a new packing instruction for the rig and the canopy

What is the change? From what to what?

Derek


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jan 17, 2005, 9:16 PM
Post #3 of 73 (8977 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

It looks to me like the line was hung up on the flap itself. I have never heard of this happening before. I have heard of gromets snagging lines, but not the flaps themselves.

It would seem to me that this would be easily solved by extending the stiffener inside the flap further to the point where it attaches to the rig. The lines were hung up on the point between the end of the stiffener and the point where the flap connects to the bottom of the reserve container.


Zoter

Jan 17, 2005, 11:16 PM
Post #4 of 73 (8938 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

That looked horrible......he was going in quite fast, hows the jumper ??


nate_1979  (B 27889)

Jan 17, 2005, 11:20 PM
Post #5 of 73 (8936 views)
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Re: [Zoter] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That looked horrible......he was going in quite fast, hows the jumper ??

No shit, I'm still a bit shook-up after watching that...


Zoter

Jan 17, 2005, 11:25 PM
Post #6 of 73 (8932 views)
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Re: [nate_1979] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

He fought it to the ground though....never stopped for a sec ...and kept hold of his handles.....Kudos


(This post was edited by Zoter on Jan 18, 2005, 12:50 AM)


mysky  (D License)

Jan 17, 2005, 11:36 PM
Post #7 of 73 (8922 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

I also have to ask. Is that jumper ok? I certainly hope so. I got chills watching it and what makes me concerned is that they only show the video up to what looks like about 300-500 feet. That's like getting the numbers to a lottery ticket and seeing the results on tv as they pick the numbers and so far you have 5 out of 6 matching numbers and then all the sudden the power goes out before the 6th number is announced. Please let me know what the 6th number is! Granted winning the lottery is a good thing and your friend being injured or worse (I pray not) is not a good thing. Please post a.s.a.p. with the jumpers status.Unsure


(This post was edited by mysky on Jan 17, 2005, 11:39 PM)


audacium  (D License)

Jan 18, 2005, 12:05 AM
Post #8 of 73 (8911 views)
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Re: [mysky] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, thanks for your concern, the jumper is fine. In fact, he got away with surprisingly little injuries, although everybody on scene thought they would have to count this as a fatality (I was not present personnally). Worst thing was severely wounded heel I believe.

In fact the reserve opened (or better opened somewhat) approx. 200ft (!) above ground (that is from the website), so for spectators it looked like he would go in. Approx. 60 ft above ground the jumper had managed to kick out of the twists, but as the main and all the mess was still caught in the reserve he continued to spiral to the ground.

Just a little clarification to Feuergnom's first post. The line got caught under the flap, and the subsequent cutaway did not work as the line _remained_ caught (so it was noo fast activation or something in this style). Well, the jumper's only remaining option was to put out as much nylon as possible, he activated the reserve, and then the reserve stayed in the freebag (the spring pilot chute was caught in the main) . Only by fighting the whole time and pulling on the risers the jumper managed to get the reserve out of the freebag.

As mentioned we all would like to know whether this can also happen to Mirage, Javelin, etc. and what else is out there, if not, whether it depends on the construction or whether the jumper just had really bad luck. I believe the construction of the flap should be changed, but the manufacturer states it is just a packing problem. Well...the jumper and a lot of other people do not think so.

Again, thanks for your concern.


(This post was edited by audacium on Jan 18, 2005, 12:09 AM)


feuergnom  (D License)

Jan 18, 2005, 12:26 AM
Post #9 of 73 (8897 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

hi derek - first off thanks for your thourough reading, i hope i can answer your questions (and i do hope the others from stammtisch will join this thread too).
i am sure you also looked at these pics Bilder der Polizei Mühldorf - they were taken on site, right after the jumper hit the ground and the rig was taken off by medics with the aid of the dz's rigger so everything was still in place.

essential pieces from the protocoll of the investigation (german)

Zum Vergleich wurden Videoaufnahmen von unterschiedlichen Hauptfallschirmöffnungen analysiert. Für eine sichere Fallschirmöffnung sind unter anderen drei Faktoren von entscheidender Bedeutung:
1. Horizontale Lage beim aktivieren des Hauptfallschirms
2. Freie Leinenlänge im Containerboden
3. Verwendete Packgummis

translation:
for reasons of comparison videos of different openings have been analysed. for a secure opening of the main parachute three factors are essential
1 horizontal position during deployment (that means pull stable)
2 lenght of free (unstowed) lines on the bottom of the container
3 type of used stowing bands/rubbers

further down in the protocoll it is stated "that the stowing bands were to large, so some lines came off early, thus getting caught under the # 2 flap."

another interesting part of the text (for all of us who think it would be easy to change something about the construction of the stiffener in the flap):

Überdies kann eine konstruktive Änderung am Container das Problem des Verfangens von Leinen an unterschiedlichsten Stellen nicht verhindern. Da die Ausführung der Verpackungen bei allen Herstellern annähern gleich ist, kann sich gleiches Szenario auch bei anderen Fallschirmen ereignen.

translates as:a change in the construction of the container (read: flap) won't solve the problem of lines getting caught in different places. due to the fact that the design of any brand/type of container is more or less similar the same kind of scenario can happen with other containers


so you asked if these rigs are still jumped with: yes.
they were grounded in austria for two weeks which caused an uproar in germany (sloppy austrians making a move without any investigation of their own Crazy )

and for the changes in the packin manual: afaik it hasn't been issued yet, but the maximum of free unstowed lines mustn't exceed 30 centimeters (approx 1 foot)


so basically (and to complete the story):
no, there aren't any flaws in the design and the only one to blame is the jumper in question.

so i hope that was the info all of you needed (i couldn't it put in my first post, it was simply too late yesterday)

if you get three identical mals from three different people over a short period of time - well come to your own conclusions.

so once more - any input from riggers is highly appreciated


to the rest of the bunch (sorry for not answering individually)

• yes. all three jumpers survived, afaik all are walking
• for making a "simple" change of the # 2 flap: after seeing how much knowledge is put in a three-ring-system i doubt any alteration of the design of a rig can be easy (but maybe you can't compare a flap with something as complex as a 3ring - remember i am not a rigger)


edit for worst typos


(This post was edited by feuergnom on Jan 18, 2005, 12:32 AM)


feuergnom  (D License)

Jan 18, 2005, 12:29 AM
Post #10 of 73 (8893 views)
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Re: [audacium] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

thx for chiming in & making my post more precise!


audacium  (D License)

Jan 18, 2005, 12:53 AM
Post #11 of 73 (8877 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It has happened from "free stowing" the lines. It is rare though. How did this jumper stow their lines?

Normal stows with rubber bands afaik.


Zoter

Jan 18, 2005, 1:34 AM
Post #12 of 73 (8848 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

how easy would it be to have 'freed' the line(s) trapped on the No.2 flap.......I guess if they were under tension it would have been possible to grab the line, reduce the tension and potentially unsnag the line....
I AM NOT suggesting at all that this would have been the right thing to do with a performance canopy and at 'low' altitude.....just wondering if its possible ...


speedy

Jan 18, 2005, 1:55 AM
Post #13 of 73 (8829 views)
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Re: [audacium] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Hooknswoop said : Flaps shouldn't get any wider towards the grommet.

In my opinion that is the main problem here and it should be fixed. Alas I am not a rigger so no one is interested in my opinion.

I cannot see any way I could reproduce what is shown in pictures 5 and 6 here with my Atom Legend unless you took a pair of scissors to the rig 1st.


Falko  (D 10613)

Jan 18, 2005, 2:09 AM
Post #14 of 73 (8818 views)
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Re: [Zoter] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
how easy would it be to have 'freed' the line(s) trapped on the No.2 flap.......I guess if they were under tension it would have been possible to grab the line, reduce the tension and potentially unsnag the line....

Don't think so. On the video/pics you can see the left 2 cells being pulled down at least (my guess) 3-5 ft (that is the distance from the riser to the back of your reserve tray and back). There must be a lot of tension on that line. Without gloves you're probably going to cut yourself. And even wearing gloves, my guess is you would slip off the line.

A hook-knife might have helped, if one had the TIME and presence of mind to recognize the scenario ("damn, line snag on gear, I need to get rid of that"), analyse the implications ("if I don't cut the line my freebag might not come out") and then vary your standard emergency procedures (i.e. grab hook knife, cut line and then normal cutaway & reserve pull).

But I can say that sitting comfortably on my ass... I probably would have done the same, follow my standard procedures!
By the way, Kudos to the jumper... he saved his life in a situation where many people would have just gone in. Frown


(This post was edited by Falko on Jan 18, 2005, 2:11 AM)


piisfish

Jan 18, 2005, 4:56 AM
Post #15 of 73 (8708 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

there is a post with quite a similar entanglement on the spanish forum...
here
the basic problem was not the same though... And the jumper landed his reserve with a lineover...


(This post was edited by piisfish on Jan 18, 2005, 4:58 AM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 18, 2005, 5:07 AM
Post #16 of 73 (8688 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
and for the changes in the packin manual: afaik it hasn't been issued yet, but the maximum of free unstowed lines mustn't exceed 30 centimeters (approx 1 foot)

That is odd since in the U.S. manufacturers recommend 18 inches +/- or lines in order to prevent them from hangin up on the reserve container and causing line twists.

That hasn't happend, AFAIK, inn the U.S. ina long time and people here have some 'interesting' methods of packing. Very odd that it has happened 3 times with that container.

i would like to get my hands on an Omega and do some head scratching of my own......

Derek


RTB  (D 582)

Jan 18, 2005, 6:12 AM
Post #17 of 73 (8625 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
There was a similar incident on a Atom rig where a line was caught on the middle flap and (almost?) ripped it of the rig. There was a modification issued to sew on a deflector flap to prevent this from happening.
Can't find the SB now though.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Jan 18, 2005, 7:06 AM
Post #18 of 73 (8559 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
and for the changes in the packin manual: afaik it hasn't been issued yet, but the maximum of free unstowed lines mustn't exceed 30 centimeters (approx 1 foot)

That is odd since in the U.S. manufacturers recommend 18 inches +/- or lines in order to prevent them from hangin up on the reserve container and causing line twists.

That hasn't happend, AFAIK, inn the U.S. ina long time and people here have some 'interesting' methods of packing. Very odd that it has happened 3 times with that container.

i would like to get my hands on an Omega and do some head scratching of my own......

Derek

I would also like to add that in the late '70's & early '80's "freepacking" was very common in the US, and I NEVER heard of this happening. Freepacking involved coiling the lines into the container w/o stows.

Also, as a part of the square reserve project, ParaFlite enlisted the aid of volunteers who put THOUSANDS of live jumps on mains packed with only bag-locking stows, and the remaining lines coiled in the container. I've seen postings from a DZ.commer who was a participant.

Blaming the packer or the jumper here is bullshit. There is a design flaw that needs to be corrected. It was not obvious, but now that it has been demonstrated, both in the air and on the ground, it is inexcusable for the mfgr to pretend it doesn't exist.


badlock

Jan 18, 2005, 7:15 AM
Post #19 of 73 (8545 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

I would like to add, that the equipment used holds TSO c23 D, so we can't easily count this accident as an incident due to unproven equipment.


(This post was edited by badlock on Jan 18, 2005, 7:16 AM)


hookitt  (D License)

Jan 18, 2005, 7:45 AM
Post #20 of 73 (8520 views)
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Re: [badlock] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would like to add, that the equipment used holds TSO c23 D, so we can't easily count this accident as an incident due to unproven equipment.
I would like to point out that a TSO has nothing to do with the main parachute.


badlock

Jan 18, 2005, 7:51 AM
Post #21 of 73 (8509 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I would like to add, that the equipment used holds TSO c23 D, so we can't easily count this accident as an incident due to unproven equipment.
I would like to point out that a TSO has nothing to do with the main parachute.

You're right, but it seems, that the major factor in this case is the container, isn't it?
*imho* It could have been any canopy you can imagine. My guess is that that has no influence in this case.
Just my 0.02$


ryoder  (D 6663)

Jan 18, 2005, 7:57 AM
Post #22 of 73 (8497 views)
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Re: [badlock] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would like to add, that the equipment used holds TSO c23 D, so we can't easily count this accident as an incident due to unproven equipment.

The TSO covers the harness, reserve container, and the reserve canopy. It does not cover the main container. TSO-c23d references AS8015B. The only (indirect) reference to main deployment in this standard is that there be a total of 8 test jumps with a cutaway, then reserve activation. 8 jumps doesn't prove very much.


skycat  (D 25740)

Jan 18, 2005, 8:46 AM
Post #23 of 73 (8427 views)
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Re: [audacium] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
As mentioned we all would like to know whether this can also happen to Mirage, Javelin, etc.

Preliminary inspection on the Mirage last night showed that as long as the main pin protection stayed closed it couldn't be duplicated due to all the stiffeners and layers of fabric. We also have a javelin sitting in our house that we can test out tonight.

Looks like Hooknswoop is going to get to start experimenting again. Wink


ciechan  (C 1705)

Jan 18, 2005, 8:49 AM
Post #24 of 73 (8428 views)
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Re: [RTB] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There was a similar incident on a Atom rig where a line was caught on the middle flap and (almost?) ripped it of the rig. There was a modification issued to sew on a deflector flap to prevent this from happening.
Can't find the SB now though.

Here is description of this accident:

http://pub20.bravenet.com/...072434/fetch/458663/

and SB in german and english

http://www.pink.at/SM040902.pdf

http://www.pink.at/SMatom000329.PDF

http://www.parasale.com/bulletin/atom35.pdf


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
Jan 18, 2005, 8:52 AM
Post #25 of 73 (8423 views)
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Re: [RTB] Could this really happen to/with any other rig (long) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There was a similar incident on a Atom rig where a line was caught on the middle flap and (almost?) ripped it of the rig. There was a modification issued to sew on a deflector flap to prevent this from happening.
Can't find the SB now though.

SB_04-002


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