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Question for Mirage - SB 12-04

 

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BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jan 15, 2005, 4:17 AM
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Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 Can't Post

1. Why should it cost the skydiver one dime when a manufacturer issues an SB? I get a recall from the vehicle manufacturer, I drive in with a notice, the dealer fixes it, they sign, I sign, they get paid by the manufacturer.

2. What is there about this that requires a Master Rigger over a Senior Rigger? We don't have a Master Rigger in the state. So, it's about $60.00 out of pocket to ship and insure it.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 15, 2005, 5:04 AM
Post #2 of 78 (1699 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why should it cost the skydiver one dime when a manufacturer issues an SB?

It shouldn't. They should provide their shipping #. You go to a shipping place, give then the container and #, they box it, ship it and bill the #. I don't know why they wouldn't. I used to think Mirage's were #1. After how they are handling this, that is no longer the case.

Quote:
What is there about this that requires a Master Rigger over a Senior Rigger? We don't have a Master Rigger in the state. So, it's about $60.00 out of pocket to ship and insure it.

RI has Product Modification Procedures (PMP's) for some of their rigs. They'll authorize Senior Riggers to do most, if not all, of them. From looking at the SB, I could do it easily. They should classify it as a minor repair and let Senior Riggers that have the equipment and feel they can do it handle it. Mirage should authorize $X.XX for riggers that turn in S/N's (or pics, or other proof) of containers they have applied the SB to to get paid. This does motivate me to hurry up and finish my Master ticket though.

Derek


Gravitymaster  (D License)

Jan 15, 2005, 5:32 AM
Post #3 of 78 (1689 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1. Why should it cost the skydiver one dime when a manufacturer issues an SB? I get a recall from the vehicle manufacturer, I drive in with a notice, the dealer fixes it, they sign, I sign, they get paid by the manufacturer.

2. What is there about this that requires a Master Rigger over a Senior Rigger? We don't have a Master Rigger in the state. So, it's about $60.00 out of pocket to ship and insure it.

It shouldn't cost the skydiver anything. The reason it does is because they know you have no choice. Either pay or stop jumping. It sucks to have to pay out of your own pocket for a design error, after spending $1800.00 for a fancy backpack.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 15, 2005, 5:37 AM
Post #4 of 78 (1687 views)
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Re: [Gravitymaster] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The reason it does is because they know you have no choice. Either pay or stop jumping.

You do have a choice, but it sucks. Either pay to get the SB applied or remove your AAD and keep jumping.

Derek


tdog  (D 28800)

Jan 15, 2005, 7:12 AM
Post #5 of 78 (1666 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
1. Why should it cost the skydiver one dime when a manufacturer issues an SB? I get a recall from the vehicle manufacturer, I drive in with a notice, the dealer fixes it, they sign, I sign, they get paid by the manufacturer.

[Opinion #1]
Some of the automotive recalls you talk about have nearly put companies out of business, and when they knew that it could (Ford-Firestone coverup a few years back) they tried to cover it up. Before a recall in automotive industry lawyers and accountants meet behind secret doors to determine if the costs of the lawsuits are more or less than the costs of the recall. Not to say this always happens, but it could happen, and it has happened…

I rather a manufacture feel no financial pressure not to release a SB. We hope they put our lives above their profits... But the way to insure that they are willing to notify the public of safety problems is to make it financially independent.
[Opinion #1/]

[Opinion #2]
When I put together a bid for my customers in my company, I have a line on the bid called “contingency.” When customers ask why, I say, “My employees will work every day in your office, and they likely will knock over a coffee cup in your office and spill on your carpet. If you want me to ‘insure’ you for that, meaning reimburse you for routine accidents, I am going to charge you for it now. If you want to take liability for small mishaps like that, you can pay later and I won’t charge you now. Which one do you want?”

Point of this… The manufacture is gonna charge you now or latter for the “recall”. In automotive examples, recalls are built into the price of cars because the government makes all automotive manufactures play on the same playing field…
[Opinion #2/]

Now - the other side of me says, shit, that sucks, you will be without a rig for a while and have to pay $$$... Can't wait until my rig needs something done too, because I am gonna be mad... Devil


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 15, 2005, 7:19 AM
Post #6 of 78 (1662 views)
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Re: [tdog] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I rather a manufacture feel no financial pressure not to release a SB.

I would think the risk of lawsuits if they knew of a problem and did nothing to fix it would far out shadow the cost of applying a SB.

Derek


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jan 15, 2005, 9:00 AM
Post #7 of 78 (1647 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What is there about this that requires a Master Rigger over a Senior Rigger?

Because it's not a minor repair it's a major alteration. If done incorrectly it could affect the airworthiness of the rig. That's the major difference between what a senior and a master rigger can do.

Can someone reference the FAR this is stated in? I don't have my books handy.

edit - it was found for me. FAR Part 65.125 Certificates:Privileges. In short, a senior rigger may "pack or maintain (except for major repair) any type of parachute for which he is rated" and a master rigger may "pack, maintain or alter any type of parachute for which he is rated."


(This post was edited by skybytch on Jan 15, 2005, 9:04 AM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 15, 2005, 9:46 AM
Post #8 of 78 (1631 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Because it's not a minor repair it's a major alteration. If done incorrectly it could affect the airworthiness of the rig. That's the major difference between what a senior and a master rigger can do.

The manufacturer can define it as a minor or major repair. RI does it all the time. I've moved Cypres pouches, etc on Talons w/ permission from RI. Mirage Sys can do the same thing.

If you look at most SB's, you could easily say that if done incorrectly they could affect the airworthiness of the rig. The Reflex grommet SB could affet it's airworthiness if done incorrectly. Smash the grommet too much and make a sharp edge which could cut the loop. If I owned a Mirage, I would be pissed, same as I was pissed about the -M SB.

Derek


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jan 15, 2005, 11:18 AM
Post #9 of 78 (1617 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

The $60 also includes the repack on the reserve so you are not waiting and paying for a reassembly fee from your local rigger.

You have the option of sending the rig to Mirage AAD and Reserve less and they will do the Mod for free and return ship it for free.Benifit is its free. Downside is you have to remove the reserve and AAD and will be hit with a reassembly fee from your rigger in most cases. It will let you take the chance to wash your rig and Scotchguard it so its not too bad of a deal.

Or you can ship everything there, pay the $60 for the mod and a factory repack. Benifit to this is the rigger packing it does not have to reassemble it and the total downtime can usually be minimized. Downside is shipping is going to cost you a whole lot more with the extra weight and insurance and its being repacked by the factory.

If it was a minor mod and senior riggers could do it that would solve ALL sorts of issues.


Gravitymaster  (D License)

Jan 15, 2005, 3:40 PM
Post #10 of 78 (1584 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
The reason it does is because they know you have no choice. Either pay or stop jumping.

You do have a choice, but it sucks. Either pay to get the SB applied or remove your AAD and keep jumping.

Yep, great choice. Toss out $1200. Cypres or spend $60. to fix their design problem even if you just paid for a repack. Of course, you could also buy another brand of container next time around but all container manuf. are the same.

My first rig was a used Vector. I sent it to RW to have the ROL switched to a BOC, new velcro and a few other minor svcs. The spandex they sewed on was so tight that I damn near went for silver due to a hard pull. I had a rigger look at it and he advised me not to jump it until a larger piece of spandex could be sewn on. When I called RW, I was told I would be charged for resewing it if I shipped the rig back, plus reshipping costs. They finally consented to mail another spandex pouch, but I had to pay another rigger to sew it on. Nothing like good customer service. I now own a Javelin.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 15, 2005, 3:43 PM
Post #11 of 78 (1582 views)
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Re: [Gravitymaster] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

Huh...have you seen what I've posted about Wings? They (Henry) picked my rig apart and replaced all the hardware with stainless when the normal hardware rusted after two years. All they charged was for the hardware (at their cost). They didn't charge for the labor or anything else.

They even overnighted my rig back so I could put it back together for the weekend.

Now THAT is customer service.


(This post was edited by AggieDave on Jan 15, 2005, 3:44 PM)


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jan 15, 2005, 7:01 PM
Post #12 of 78 (1554 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The Reflex grommet SB could affet it's airworthiness if done incorrectly. Smash the grommet too much and make a sharp edge which could cut the loop.

IIRC the Reflex SB was regarding grommets not being set deep enough. Besides, a main grommet isn't an airworthiness issue (loop gets cut on the main it's not as likely to kill ya), whereas an AAD in the reserve container is.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 15, 2005, 7:14 PM
Post #13 of 78 (1547 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
IIRC the Reflex SB was regarding grommets not being set deep enough.

Right and if you find one that needs to be set more and overdo it, it could affect the airworthiness of the rig. It could create a horse shoe. I've seen a reserve dploy as the main did because of a sharp grommet. Fortunately the main and reserve didn't entangle.

I don't think there a re very many repairs that woulodn't affect the airworthiness of a rig if done incorrectly.

Derek


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jan 15, 2005, 7:58 PM
Post #14 of 78 (1532 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

First, I'd like to say that for the most part, manufacturers do a pretty good job of making things right on a case-by-case basis. And, in some cases, they go above and beyond the call.... Mirage has.

It just so happens that Mirage is the current focus. My point is that I see a growing trend of issuing an SB that has an effect on a wide spectrum of customers. No doubt most of us remember how the -M situation was handled (or mishandled).

Same as the situation with Reflex. All manuafacturers were doing their grommets the same way and after the Reflex incident, IIRC almost every manufacturer came out with the same SB, but a senior rigger could perform it.

For me, I have used my position as an Instructor to recommend gear and did so several times last year which resulted in sales for Mirage and others. I do not use the Instructor incentive from any of the manufacturers because I feel like it's a conflict of interest. I want to recommend the best rig for that particular student based on financial situation, body type, abilities, etc.

That said, if the trend continues of a manufacturer issuing an SB at the expense of the owner, then I can no longer recommend them. Second, if the manufacturers took the financial burden of an SB, they would in turn increase their quality control methods, which would result in greater sales.

What happened to -M sales after that SB? What happened to your willingness to recommend a -M? I still jump a -M, but if a student asks me now, what reserve to buy, I tell them another manufacturer.

I currently have three former students who bought Mirages last year based on my recommendation, now I get to tell them, "Well, we don't have a Master Rigger in the neighborhood, so your only choice is to send it to Mirage and pay the shipping, plus $60.00 (rather than the usual $45.00) for the repack. That's a $100.00 bill to them out of their pocket - on top of the $1200-$1800 they just spent for the H/C.

When the SB for capewell pins came out, you know how many riggers did the test for free? And, I know more than one that bought the proper equipment to do the pin test and never charged a dime... because they thought it was the right thing to do.

The right thing to do is not make your customers pay for an SB. Anybody who's been in business or dealt with a business, knows that mistakes are made. How the business handles those mistakes determines whether they can maintain the customer relationship. The right thing to do is eat it in the name of safety, learn from it, handle it properly and have a reputation for doing things right.

I just ask that the trend of all manufacturers making the customers pay for an SB - stop.


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Jan 15, 2005, 8:00 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 15, 2005, 9:42 PM
Post #15 of 78 (1514 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My point is that I see a growing trend of issuing an SB that has an effect on a wide spectrum of customers. No doubt most of us remember how the -M situation was handled (or mishandled).

Fucking whaaaa.... ya know?

This is an expensive sport. Suck it up.

Think it's a new trend? It's been going on since the dawn of time.


Geeeze..... I got out of the gear business because I couldn't deal with the negativity anymore. Why does everyone have the "Dire Straights Syndrome"? You know....."Money for nuthin', and your chicks for free?"

[/end rant]


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 16, 2005, 7:26 AM
Post #16 of 78 (1451 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

Not money for nothing, but get what you pay for.

Derek


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

Jan 16, 2005, 8:57 AM
Post #17 of 78 (1430 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
now I get to tell them, "Well, we don't have a Master Rigger in the neighborhood, so your only choice is to send it to Mirage and pay the shipping, plus $60.00 (rather than the usual $45.00) for the repack.

That's not quite the only option. Bob Fiesthammel is the dzo of Skydive Missouri and a DPRE. Mt. Vernon, MO is about 2.5 hours North of you on I-44. It might be worth paying one person to round up all your Mirages and haul them to Mt. Vernon.

I was going to have Fiesty do mine until I decided that I wanted to have Mirage make some other mods on it.

-Blind


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jan 16, 2005, 9:56 AM
Post #18 of 78 (1417 views)
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Re: [BlindBrick] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, John. I didn't know Feisty was a Master Rigger. I'll pass that on.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jan 16, 2005, 9:57 AM
Post #19 of 78 (1416 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not money for nothing, but get what you pay for.

You pay for a container. You get a container. Once it's in your hands the suitability of that container for any purpose isn't technically the manufacturer's problem, it's yours. Every container owners manual I've seen has a disclaimer that states that, and it also states that if you don't agree you are welcome to return it for a full refund as long as it hasn't been jumped.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 16, 2005, 11:45 AM
Post #20 of 78 (1402 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

I expect the reserve system to work and the manufacturer to pay to fix any manufacturing or design defects. Things like how long a container lasts or how good the pin protection is, I'm stuck with. If I damage a rig through normal use, I would fix it/expect to pay to have it fixed.

If a manufacturer does not issue a SB for a design/QC problem, they are opening themselves up to lawsuits for hiding it.

If gear manufacturers need to charge more to account for recalls/problems/whatever, then do it. I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with paying for their mistake.

I wouldn't have a problem if they issued a notice on how to pack Mirages (basically like the manual says) to prevent this issue in place of the SB. That would make my life a whole lot easier. No containers to mod and it wouldn't make small Mirages harder to pack, as the SB does.

Derek


skydiver30960  (D License)

Jan 16, 2005, 12:05 PM
Post #21 of 78 (1396 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is an expensive sport. Suck it up.
In reply to:

Bingo.

Not for diablopilot, but for those complaining about the cost of shipping:

I don't even own a Mirage and have only packed a handful compared to the God-knows-how-many some of the other riggers on this Forum have, but everything I have seen from them (other jumpers' satisfaction with their product, interaction with their employees at sundry boogies) demonstrates that they are a top notch company with a top notch product. Even the finest automobiles need maintenance or they break down once in a while. Problem is, when a car breaks down, you're late for work. When a rig breaks down, somebody dies. Mirage is just doing everything they can to keep YOU safe and jumping.

Relative to the other costs of this sport, the cost of shipping a rig to the manufacturer is a pittance. You've made a significant investment in what is (arguably) the best manufactured rig currently available, and are now haggling over a couple dollars and a couple of days to keep it top-of-the-line.

It's January and cold as hell for MOST (I know, not all) of us in this neck of the woods. How much jumping will really be missed?

I know it's a bummer paying for another repack if you've just had it done. But hey: I've seen people take a reserve ride on the first jump after a repack, so it could be worse! Tongue

Elvisio "no dog in this fight, but what the hell" Rodriguez


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 16, 2005, 12:09 PM
Post #22 of 78 (1393 views)
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Re: [skydiver30960] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Even the finest automobiles need maintenance or they break down once in a while. Problem is, when a car breaks down, you're late for work. When a rig breaks down, somebody dies. Mirage is just doing everything they can to keep YOU safe and jumping.

We aren't talking about a breakdown, we are talking about a design problem. What happends when a car manufacturer realizes they have a design problem on their cars? Who pays for it? Not the owner, that's for sure.

Kelli's old Mustang had a design flaw with the intake manifold. Ford paid to replace it, 100% of the parts and labor, and in her case, towing.

When the alternator quit, I didn't call up Ford. I ordered a new one and replaced it.

Completely different scenarios.

Derek


(This post was edited by Hooknswoop on Jan 16, 2005, 12:10 PM)


skydiver30960  (D License)

Jan 16, 2005, 12:22 PM
Post #23 of 78 (1387 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess I can see your point, but if my truck was recalled for a manifold problem, and I was able to drive it to the dealer for the free replacement, would I then present the dealer with a bill for the mileage and cost of "my time" spent waiting while they did the repair?

I guess it all comes down to where you draw the line. And while I can see that many might draw the line at "Mirage Systems pays for everything" I guess I'd just be a bit more likely to forgive them this one small transgression because of everything else they have going for them.

Elvisio "summer dreamin'" Rodriguez


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 16, 2005, 12:33 PM
Post #24 of 78 (1382 views)
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Re: [skydiver30960] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I guess I can see your point, but if my truck was recalled for a manifold problem, and I was able to drive it to the dealer for the free replacement, would I then present the dealer with a bill for the mileage and cost of "my time" spent waiting while they did the repair?

What if your manifold cracked and left you stranded? Would you expect the manufacturer to pay for the towing, parts, and labor (assuming it was a recall)?

With the Mirage SB, there is a problem with the reserve system that could cause it to lock up. Even though it doesn't have to be done until the next re-pack, I don't think waiting and jumping it with a possible reserve total mal is such a good idea. I know Kelli won’t be jumping her Mirage until after it is fixed. What if you are on a team and have paid for a competition and now will have to rent gear to attend to competition or forfeit your entry fees along with missing the event? What if you make your living skydiving and need your container to earn money? How much money are you going to be out after paying to ship it back? What about a DZ that has Mirage student rigs and their loss of income from having them down for the SB? What if you are trying to sell your rig and have someone interested? Who pays for the SB then since the rig will be out of service and it will cost $ to get it fixed, it is worth less by whatever the amount it costs to fix it? They are other issues besides shipping and a re-assembly and re-pack.

Quote:
I guess it all comes down to where you draw the line.

I draw the line very simply and clearly; my fault or fair wear and tear, I pay. Their fault, they pay.

Derek


ECVZZ  (A License)

Jan 16, 2005, 1:17 PM
Post #25 of 78 (1368 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Question for Mirage - SB 12-04 [In reply to] Can't Post

I was also thinking of automobile mfr recalls as I was reading this. It's a good, and fair analogy.

If Dodge sells me a vehicle and later finds that due to a design or engineering flaw, the front wheel may fall off in the course of normal operation, then they better damn well fix it for free. If the wheel falls off because I've done 3 brake jobs on the thing and never bothered to clean, inspect, repack and adjust the wheel bearings, then that's my bad.

Gear mfrs are no different. Just because it's skydiving gear doesn't mean they should be exempt from correcting potentially fatal design or manufacturing flaws (at their expense). I pay them for the same reason I pay Dodge...To supply me with a safe, state of the art product, and that includes designing, engineering, and manufacturing costs. If they fuck up during any phase, then don't expect me to pay for it...I already have when I bought the product.



Greg

"Why don't they make a light that only shines on things that are worth looking at?"


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