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Cypres2 or Vigil

 

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danger29  (C License)

Jan 7, 2005, 7:47 AM
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Cypres2 or Vigil Can't Post

I am in a position to buy my First set of brand new kit, I have previously owned a second hand rig that had no AAD.
I plan to do a lot more jumps than I have been doing so I am going to make sure my new kit has one.
Cypres2 or Vigil??? I have read some of the previous threads and most just seems a matter of opinion.
I have jumped rented kit with both types of AAD and have never had a problem with either.
My CCI's opinion is that they about the same. Yes, cypres have been around for years but thay had the same teething problems as Vigil did last year. Have Vigil sorted all of these problems? Is the cypres worth the extra money? ( I know safety is not an area to scrimp and save but an AAD is ONLY a back up device )
I am interested in what you all have to say on the matter.
Cheers


mattjw916  (D License)

Jan 7, 2005, 7:56 AM
Post #2 of 112 (6170 views)
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Re: [danger29] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

The real question is, which one are you most comfortable with? The main reason I own and would buy another Cypres versus other options is resale value.

edit: typo Tongue


(This post was edited by mattjw916 on Jan 7, 2005, 7:56 AM)


danger29  (C License)

Jan 7, 2005, 8:03 AM
Post #3 of 112 (6161 views)
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Re: [danger29] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

I always thought i would go for Cypres but having changed the DZ i jump at and using a Vigil for the first time I asked a few questions about it. ( The CCI is a very experienced BPA master rigger/examiner )
The result was I felt totally comfortable using both.
I know the Vigil is not water proof but i have absolutely no intention of swooping the pond, ( there is always the possibility I may have an off landing in the sea or lake or something though!!! )


Ron

Jan 7, 2005, 12:50 PM
Post #4 of 112 (6082 views)
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Re: [danger29] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

If you had asked a year ago...CYPRES2

Now I don't think it matters since Vigil has the big bugs worked out.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jan 7, 2005, 2:49 PM
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Re: [danger29] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

Both appear to be very good devices.

If I were buying right now, I'd probably get a Vigil....

_Am


madeyebiohazard  (C 34442)

Jan 7, 2005, 5:26 PM
Post #6 of 112 (6021 views)
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Re: [danger29] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

The thing is this is tough to answer for someone else it's like asking what container to buy Javelin or Mirage in reality both products are functional, both products have advantagees and disadvantages I think the only advice i could give would be to do your own research and then chose the brand that suits your needs and supplies you with the assurance and safe feeling you need.


(This post was edited by madeyebiohazard on Jan 7, 2005, 5:27 PM)


danger29  (C License)

Jan 8, 2005, 7:59 AM
Post #7 of 112 (5963 views)
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Re: [madeyebiohazard] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks all,

I'm going to ask around a bit at my DZ for more opinions but i think i'll end up going for the Vigil.
That also means the money I save will go towards a shiny new sony PC109.......

Stay Safe, Blue Skies


skydiverton  (D 123456789)

Jan 10, 2005, 7:03 AM
Post #8 of 112 (5836 views)
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Re: [danger29] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks all,

I'm going to ask around a bit at my DZ for more opinions but i think i'll end up going for the Vigil.
That also means the money I save will go towards a shiny new sony PC109.......

Stay Safe, Blue Skies

How much money do you think you safe?


kimgriffin  (D 15354)

Jan 10, 2005, 7:22 AM
Post #9 of 112 (5833 views)
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Re: [danger29] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

Shoot, I work for Vigil USA but agree 100% with who ever said go with what makes you feel most comfortable. I would never buy a rerserve or AAD based on price.

I suggest you look at the 2 AADs websites, maybe even read manuals to inform yourself.

Best of luck, Kim
Kim Griffin
Vigil USA
DeLand Florida


danger29  (C License)

Jan 10, 2005, 8:21 AM
Post #10 of 112 (5821 views)
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Re: [kimgriffin] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

I would never buy the Vigil purely because it's cheaper. I've saved long and hard to be able to buy whatever I want.

I have used both Cypres and Vigil and was fine with both, I just wanted to know if the problems that Vigil had last year had been sorted. if they have then I would go for the Vigil if not then the Cypres2.

Almost everyone i have asked has said the same, If they were buying a year ago, there is no question, Cypres2 but now they would go for Vigil.

If I do decide on the Vigil and it's slightly cheaper then great, Why pay more for something that does the same or very similar? But, price is the last thing on my mind.

Is it true that some european countries have banned the use of Vigil at their DZ's? I think it was Gerymany that said they didn't like the fact that the Vigil has a tolerance of +/- 80m ( 240ft )

This is the kind of thing I want to find out about.


Ron

Jan 10, 2005, 8:52 AM
Post #11 of 112 (5813 views)
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Re: [danger29] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Almost everyone i have asked has said the same, If they were buying a year ago, there is no question, Cypres2 but now they would go for Vigil.

I never said I would by a Vigil over a CYPRES2.

I only said that I don't think it matters anymore.

I would still probley get the CYPRES since I just have a better feel about it.

The Vigil had problems...some of them serious enough that I thought they were dangerous. They had a few situations that were quite dangerous (In air fires), and they had a few that were just really annoying. All of these seem to be worked out. I am sure there are still problems with both units....CYPRES2 had some issues with it's display unit not working when it came out.

In either case no matter what the company, I would not want to be the first on the block with a new toy. New equipment sometimes have hidden issues not seen in the testing. Some are really bad (Nova's) some are annoying but not dangerous.

In either case I don't rush out to buy the new toys. I tend to wait two years of real world commercial use before I buy something. It is my life we are talking about.

The Vigil still seems to have its problems, but none that would bother me anymore.

I am glad I still have 4 years on my old gen 1 CYPRES.


specnaz007  (D License)

Jan 10, 2005, 7:22 PM
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Re: [kimgriffin] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kim,
It really bothers me that all info concerning testing has disappeared from the new Vigil website. With the history and some problems (some very serious) I would like to know what tests have been carried out on the new designs (vigil 2).

Can you inform me about that?

Thank you,
GarikWink


kimgriffin  (D 15354)

Jan 11, 2005, 11:25 AM
Post #13 of 112 (5691 views)
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Re: [danger29] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

Danger29,

Quote:
I have used both Cypres and Vigil and was fine with both, I just wanted to know if the problems that Vigil had last year had been sorted. if they have then I would go for the Vigil if not then the Cypres2.


The problem that you speak of is that the first Vigils released did not have strong enough protection against extremely strong static electrical shocks. This caused a few Vigils to fire on the ground and one on a static line jump. The problem was fixed in early April. A stronger shield for static electricity was put in place. Once the mfg realized what the issue was, it was an easy fix. Nothing else was changed on the Vigil... all functions remain the same. New Vigils were made for all customers and all Vigils replaced at no charge. Since then, 10 months and tens of thousands of jumps ago, there have been no problems. There have also been a few saves . One save came about after a guy cut away a spinner at 800ft.

Quote:
If I do decide on the Vigil and it's slightly cheaper then great, Why pay more for something that does the same or very similar? But, price is the last thing on my mind.

I agree, great to save money but you should not base your decision on it. You actually get more with the Vigil and the cost of ownership is much less but I wont go in to that schpeel here.

Quote:
Is it true that some european countries have banned the use of Vigil at their DZ's? I think it was Gerymany that said they didn't like the fact that the Vigil has a tolerance of +/- 80m ( 240ft )

Germany federation did disallow the use of the Vigil last fall. They claimed that the Vigil had a potentiometer (a dial inside the unit that allows settings to be changed which the first TEST units did have, of course. Its very common for test equipment to have such a dial but no production Vigil has ever had one.) The ban was lifted the same week when the owner of Belgium brought the Vigil for the DFV for inspection (like our FAA I suppose). They found not one issue with the Vigil and reinstated approval the next day. You guys would not believe some of the politics behind skydiving.

From my knowledge, the Vigil is used and accepted by federations in all countries except Sweden, Norway and Australia. Some federations have more hoops to jump through than others and take longer for all mfgs to get their products on their market.

The tolerance/accuracy of the Vigil is the most precise on the market +/-65 feet. The Vigil has a countdown clock and it takes measurements 64x per second, meaning the right when you hit 840 feet at 78mph, it fires the cutter. Basically, its waiting for you to hit 840 feet, thinking you need your reserve in 5,4,3,2,1,FIRE. It also has a specially designed and patented battery that is charged and ready to fire right when the activation alt and speed are reached.

If you have any other questions, I can get back to them when Im back from the PIA Symposium.

~Kim Griffin
Vigil USA
DeLand Fla


kimgriffin  (D 15354)

Jan 11, 2005, 11:52 AM
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Re: [specnaz007] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Specnaz007. Yeah, I do believe that info was taken off due to a discrepancy with the guy no longer associated with the company who designed the first website. The owner of Vigil is traveling to the US right now. I'll ask him when we're all at PIA. The new Dec04 website is still in the works - there are MANY pieces that are just not there yet. Testing of the Vigil 3-4 yrs ago has not changed. So, the info not being there doesnt mean any of the testing has changed.

The mfg in Belgium has many ways they have tested Vigils. Have you seen pics of the test chambers and facilities where the Vigil is produced? BTW, in regards to testing, each Vigil is tested in each mode (tandem, student, pro) many times to see that it will fire when it needs to and not when it's not suppose to. It's then set back to 0 jumps and shipped.

There was no new design to test. The Vigil didn't need to be redesigned back in Apr 04 when the static electricity shielding issue was realized. There already was a shield for static electrical discharges inside the first Vigils, it just wasn't strong enough to handle a certain hard to reach (but obviously not impossible) high voltage. They shut down production for weeks to do testing and make sure there would be no other problems. They increased the strength of that shielding and reschocked the sh#! out of test units in what they call their Bazooka test chamber.

I've worked with 2 other skydiving mfgs (PD and BirdMan) in the past 12 yrs and have never seen those companies release all their testing data. I find it interesting that people ask. But, it's always your right to ask and find out as much as you can about a product. I completely respect that.

If you would really like to know more about how the original Vigils were tested and how the new static electrical shield was tested, I would suggest you call the owner of Vigil or his chief engineer. They're insanely busy getting ready for PIA Symposium right now and sure they will be once their back but I can get you that contact info if you would like. If so, email me from my address on the website.

K? Ill probably be away from this forum for a week or so. If youre at the PIA Symposium, come by and say hi. You can also ask the owner/designer of the Vigil (Jo Smolders) your questions.

~Kim Griffin
Vigil USA
DeLand Fl


(This post was edited by kimgriffin on Jan 11, 2005, 11:55 AM)


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jan 11, 2005, 2:01 PM
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Re: [kimgriffin] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've worked with 2 other skydiving mfgs (PD and BirdMan) in the past 12 yrs and have never seen those companies release all their testing data. I find it interesting that people ask. But, it's always your right to ask and find out as much as you can about a product. I completely respect that.

Testing of those products are a bit more straightforward, and people largely do the same thing when they use them in the air. Testing an AAD is hard to do in a non stupid manner. And even harder to test of aging issues.

The maintenence free self test feature is perhaps the most common concern. I put out a supposition of what Vigil might be doing on that in this thread, but it would be most interesting to know how the company will maintain faith in this approach in say, 2010.


nate_1979  (B 27889)

Jan 12, 2005, 9:23 PM
Post #16 of 112 (5568 views)
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Re: [kimgriffin] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

As someone posted earlier, the biggest thing with the Vigil that people still seem to have a problem with is the lack of testing the unit will receive after you get it.. Just a question, how would you guys handle it if someone was to want to send their unit in for checks (say every 4 years like the cypress)... Would that type of service be made available and what would you charge for such a service.. Seems someone could buy a vigil, voluntarily send the unit in every four years, but not hit that 12 year experation assuming the unit continued to function within specifications?


danger29  (C License)

Jan 13, 2005, 9:23 AM
Post #17 of 112 (5507 views)
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Re: [kimgriffin] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for all the info Kim.

i am now interested in the fact Australia dont accept the Vigil as I am going to New Zealand/Australia for a year, hence all the new equipment.

Am i right in thinking I wont be able to use a Vigil in Australia? Although I am staying in NZ, I plan to travel and jump in OZ as well.

Any info you can give me on this would be appreciated. I am not in a rush to get my kit as I dont think I will be going until sometime around August so i still have plenty of time to make my mind up!!


LavaLady  (F 387)

Jan 13, 2005, 5:30 PM
Post #18 of 112 (5463 views)
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Re: [danger29] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi there,
The official position of the Australian Parachute Federation is as follows.

"The APF Director Safety has stated that a Vigil AAD may not be fitted to rigs that may be used by solo students, whether the unit is turned off or turned on. This ruling is to remain in force until further notice."

Further investigation and enquiry is still being made by both the APF Director of Safety & Director of Rigging before any policy change.

So, this means that if you are not a solo student, and your container has been approved for Vigil use by the manufacturer, you will have no problem using your equipment in Oz.Wink

Kim Hardwick
APF Technical Officer


skydiverton  (D 123456789)

Jan 16, 2005, 11:38 PM
Post #19 of 112 (5342 views)
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Re: [kimgriffin] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There was no new design to test. The Vigil didn't need to be redesigned back in Apr 04 when the static electricity shielding issue was realized. There already was a shield for static electrical discharges inside the first Vigils, it just wasn't strong enough to handle a certain hard to reach (but obviously not impossible) high voltage. They shut down production for weeks to do testing and make sure there would be no other problems. They increased the strength of that shielding and reschocked the sh#! out of test units in what they call their Bazooka test chamber.

The text above indicates they re-tested the static-electricity issue. That should be enough. When you change something to improve static electricity you have to verify that test. It is useles to do droptest again.

In aerospace industry in general there are several ways to prove your equipment is good for flight (skydive):
1) By similarity/experience. (A company making parachutes for years knows how to attach lines to fabric)
2) By analysis (Simple cases may be calculated. For example airpressure on an airplane wing)
3) By test (Take the equipment and test it upto the level required)

Of course the first option is the cheapest (in general) but it is not always possible.

In general. It is up to the certifying organisation what they want as evidence.
In skydiving these (national) organisations are mostly accepting the evidence from the supplier as presented. Very few organisations do additional test/ research. From my head I know only the german and swedisch organisation do additional research themselves, and yes these organisations can put limits on the use or even ground it. It might be harder to convince these organisations, because they look more in detail (that is their job).

I'm not a certification buro or a rigger, but I've asked some questions in the past which have not been answered.

Note:
Vigil changed the website frontpage from:
Guardian angels don't need maintenance!
To:
Guardian angels don't need scheduled maintenance!

Does that mean you rely on mainenance on condition, or You switch on your vigil in the morning and it refuses to switch on because of a out-of-tolerance.

greetings

Ton


indiana  (D License)

Jan 17, 2005, 12:57 PM
Post #20 of 112 (5276 views)
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Re: [kimgriffin] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
They increased the strength of that shielding and reschocked the sh#! out of test units in what they call their Bazooka test chamber.


Dear Kim,
The above mentioned Bazooka test chamber is a normal pressure chamber (like the FXC test chamber, to simulate a skydive). It is not designed nor able to do any tests concerning static electricity.

Happy landings,
Indiana


redknight

Jan 18, 2005, 12:59 AM
Post #21 of 112 (5214 views)
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Re: [indiana] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Indiana

That is correct
But have you seen the one they are using in the laboratory and for the practical tests of the main PCB
Was on their old website. Forgotten ???

Smile
Redknight


(This post was edited by redknight on Jan 18, 2005, 1:04 AM)


redknight

Jan 18, 2005, 2:30 AM
Post #22 of 112 (5197 views)
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Re: [kimgriffin] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In reply to:
Danger29,

Quote:
Is it true that some european countries have banned the use of Vigil at their DZ's? I think it was Gerymany that said they didn't like the fact that the Vigil has a tolerance of +/- 80m ( 240ft )

Germany federation did disallow the use of the Vigil last fall. They claimed that the Vigil had a potentiometer (a dial inside the unit that allows settings to be changed – which the first TEST units did have, of course. It’s very common for test equipment to have such a dial but no production Vigil has ever had one.) The ban was lifted the same week when the owner of Belgium brought the Vigil for the DFV for inspection (like our FAA I suppose). They found not one issue with the Vigil and reinstated approval the next day. You guys would not believe some of the politics behind skydiving.

~Kim Griffin
Vigil USA
DeLand Fla

In reply to:
You are completely right Kim

Hey you all
Remember post #187 , Oct 22, 2004 from 4XTTTOM
For convenience in attachment

Redknight
Attachments: Brief Wiederfreigabe VIGIL an Smolders engl 20041022.pdf (40.3 KB)


skydiverton  (D 123456789)

Jan 18, 2005, 4:22 AM
Post #23 of 112 (5171 views)
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Re: [redknight] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

So the question stays:
How did AAD prove their claim about the improved static-shielding. Apperantly not by test.

Perhaps by analyses or similarity??


kimgriffin  (D 15354)

Jan 19, 2005, 1:44 PM
Post #24 of 112 (5066 views)
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Re: [skydiverton] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course, the new, stronger static electrical shield was tested. Give me a break. You think they want to make new Vigils for everyone in the world again?

I will wait for the engineers to return from Jacksonville and get you a more comprehensive answer. Or, I'll get someone over there to answer your question.

We have had no issue since the new Vigils were sent out 10 months ago and tens of thousands of live skydiver jumps, 3 real live activations/"saves" and excellent interest and feedback from the riggers, military personnel and fun jumpers attending PIA.


skydiverton  (D 123456789)

Jan 21, 2005, 1:42 AM
Post #25 of 112 (4995 views)
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Re: [kimgriffin] Cypres2 or Vigil [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Of course, the new, stronger static electrical shield was tested. Give me a break. You think they want to make new Vigils for everyone in the world again?

I will wait for the engineers to return from Jacksonville and get you a more comprehensive answer. Or, I'll get someone over there to answer your question.

We have had no issue since the new Vigils were sent out 10 months ago and tens of thousands of live skydiver jumps, 3 real live activations/"saves" and excellent interest and feedback from the riggers, military personnel and fun jumpers attending PIA.

Sorry, but I did not write you HAVE to test, there are other means to prove your compliance.

Just another little question. Your manual recommends to switch off the unit while riding the plane back down. Did you ever try that while doing a tandem that refused to jump (In some airplanes this means I keep my passenger hooked-up)

I do not think the Vigil is a bad product, but if I have to choose which one to buy I have my personal preferance


(This post was edited by skydiverton on Jan 21, 2005, 1:44 AM)


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