Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
what is next....

 

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D22369  (D 22369)

Jan 3, 2005, 7:20 AM
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what is next.... Can't Post

Do you think Canopy's have maxed out yet?
The swoops with todays canopy's are long and fast

will we ever see canopy's approach or exceed a 400-500' swoop on a regular basis?

what do you think?

Roy


(This post was edited by D22369 on Jan 3, 2005, 7:25 AM)


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Jan 3, 2005, 8:16 AM
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Re: [D22369] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Do you think Canopy's have maxed out yet?
The swoops with todays canopy's are long and fast

will we ever see canopy's approach or exceed a 400-500' swoop on a regular basis?

what do you think?



i tihnk there is much more progression that can be done, but maybe not with the current canopies.

another thing to think about is we already have seen 400+ swoops, the record is 435ft.

i mean, there's always something to learn, even on the canopies we have today, no one gets a perfect swoop every jump. but, at this point the pro's are close to maxing out the canopies they have, but i'm sure icarus, or pd, or precision will come out with something that will take the progression of the sport even futher, maybe longer swoops, better carves, more speed.......or all of the above.



just my thoughts on it though.

later


D22369  (D 22369)

Jan 3, 2005, 8:24 AM
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Re: [skygod7777] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

another thing to think about is we already have seen 400+ swoops, the record is 435ft.
Quote:

I remember reading about that 435 footer, way too awsome, and have seen some hot swoopers hitting 300+ on a regular basis.

but 400'+ is still a rare event - (one that I would really like to be present to witness)

I was just wondering if their was any way to make a cleaner chute design better materials- better technique, or are we their yet?.....

Roy


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Jan 3, 2005, 8:32 AM
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Re: [D22369] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I remember reading about that 435 footer, way too awsome, and have seen some hot swoopers hitting 300+ on a regular basis.

right right


Quote:
but 400'+ is still a rare event


oh yes, i guess i didn't really say that, i've seen 400 foot swoops, but everyone one i've seen/done was in like 15 knot downwinds Sly, so they don't really count.


Quote:
I was just wondering if their was any way to make a cleaner chute design better materials- better technique, or are we their yet


i think there there will be more to some, i know icarus has some canopies in the works right now, the jvx that is about to be released here in the next few weeks is one that can handle higher wing loadings and still getting the same distance as a lighter loaded vx or velo.....at least this is was jim slaton has told me via e-mail.


i'm calling it now, i think we will see more progression, and better canopy designs in the near future that will allow us to swoop longer, carve harder, and all with more speed..............if not at least i'm still going to think it so i feel better Tongue.


and like i said, this is just my opinion on this, and opinions are like assholes.............everyone got em..........and they all stinkTongue


later


GQ_jumper  (D 29397)

Jan 3, 2005, 8:41 AM
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Re: [skygod7777] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that we have not yet come close to realizing the full potential of canopies, Jim was talking about being able to get the same amount of lift on smaller canopies through added rigidity. and there are always people out there looking for the newest advance in canopy technology. as long as we have people in this sport wiling to push the envelope to take it to a new level i don't think we will see an end anywhere in the near future.


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jan 3, 2005, 8:56 AM
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Re: [D22369] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we are going to see a plateau for about 7-10 years, and then some new technology will come out that will cause another explosion forward in swoopology.

I think that technology will be something along these lines:
A material that can be folded but will retain a memory of the shape it wants. The nose portion of the ribs will be made of this material, making parachutes a semi-rigid wing that can be folded into a container.

ps - I have trademarked the term swoopology. Any use of the term swoopology without the express permission from my fat ass will result in a stern talking to. I may even make you go sit in the corner, assuming you haven't spent the whole day there already with your assed out flying skills.


Spizzzarko

Jan 3, 2005, 9:13 AM
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Re: [D22369] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure the technology, and the designs exist currently. It's a simple matter of aeronautical design. The problems I see is as follows:

The general skydiving public is not ready for more advanced designs. I would venture to guess that the highspeed low drag designs of today (IE VX, Velocity, Xaos-27, JVX) that you see the professionals winning the swoop comps with, only make up about 3%-5% of a manufacturers overall sales.

With that being said, what incentive is it for a manufacturer to spend all of this money for research and developement of a new and improved design? Having your name out there with cutting edge designs is one thing, but when you think of all time greatest canopy's what comes to mind? Lets take the Stilletto or Sabre for example. These designs have been out since the late 1980's and very early 1990's. Now that's some pretty old technology by todays standards, but I'm sure PD will tell you that they have been their all time best sellers (with exception to the PD Reserve), and that they are still being sold today, even though there are more performance oriented designs out there. Now lets focus on the performance aspect of this issue.

It is my opinion that few people in this sport are really good canopy pilots. I also believe that your typical weekend sky jumper doesn't even really want to become a canopy skygod. I'm sure they are just as happy using their canopy as a device to slow them down from freefall before they impact the earth, so they can go up and do it all again. We still need to face the unpleasant fact that we are still killing ourselves by doing stupid things under perfectly good canopy's. Swooping may be fun and all, but it is an inherrently dangerous business, so why should PD build something else for a bunch of people to get killed on?

The newer designs that I mentioned earlier (IE VX, Velocity, Xaos-27, JVX) are still setting new records. 5 years ago it was JC Colclasure going 340' on an FX. 2 years ago it was Shanon Pilcher going 418' on a Velocity. Currently it's JC Colclasure going 430+' on a VX (Please excuse me if you held a record and I didn't mention you). I really don't forsee people all of a sudden making a giant leep in distance, but I think they will contiue to edge the mark up over time. I don't think we as general canopy pilots are anywhere near as close to reaching the performance limits of our current canopy's as the professionals. Don't get me wrong, I would love nothing more than to see some no name dude come from some little backwoods 182 dropzone and just smoke all of the pro's in a competition, but the odds of that happening are few and far between.

As far as the future of canopy design holds, I really can't say. I'm sure there are new and different designs forthcoming, maybee even a new technology, but I really don't hear about it to often up here in Colorado. Colorado is about 5 to 10 years behind the mainstream skydiving industry.

SWOOPOLOGY there I said it with out permision... Let me say it again SWOOPOLOGY!!!! hahahahahah


(This post was edited by Spizzzarko on Jan 3, 2005, 9:16 AM)


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Jan 3, 2005, 10:14 AM
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Re: [Spizzzarko] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I would love nothing more than to see some no name dude come from some little backwoods 182 dropzone and just smoke all of the pro's in a competition, but the odds of that happening are few and far between.



you just wait until i turn 18 nowWink


later


Spizzzarko

Jan 3, 2005, 11:14 AM
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Re: [skygod7777] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

You can Doooo eeeeettt Mang...


Bartje  (E License)

Jan 3, 2005, 11:17 AM
Post #10 of 46 (1717 views)
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Re: [jdfreefly] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think we are going to see a plateau for about 7-10 years, and then some new technology will come out that will cause another explosion forward in swoopology.
I do think there is a next generation.
The German canopy, the "Rage", with a closed nose in front and the next one will be cross braced. The test I did see was unbeliveble. A lot of speed and lot of lift. The non cross braced was already faster in speed than the Vx or Velocity but the lift was not great for the speed.
The first year there was a Rage at the podium in a German swoop competition.
The Rage, the new Icarus, the Xaos27, I think we do not have to wait 7 a 10 years.
Here is a link with more info from the Rage: http://www.paratec.de/index_start.html


(This post was edited by Bartje on Jan 3, 2005, 11:22 AM)


Jskydiver22  (C 34942)

Jan 3, 2005, 12:27 PM
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Re: [D22369] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I've thought about this question a lot. I think that canopies will never change as much as the changed from Rounds to Squares.

I think that canopies will just continue changing little bits at a time. They will probably end up being able to do some wicked things. Who knows what those guys down at PD, Icarus and precision are thinking up.

As far as the comment about someone coming from a little backwoods 182 dropzone....Give me some time, when i turn 18 and go places, i'll get my name out there Wink


piisfish

Jan 3, 2005, 2:14 PM
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Re: [D22369] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

these characteristics you mention might not be the domains in which the canopies.

In my opinion, what will evolve more will be aerobatics flight capacity, like paraglifers doing tumblings and stuff...


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jan 3, 2005, 7:29 PM
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Re: [Bartje] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

The rage is just an extension of an old technology. The design may very well be the next great thing in todays swoopology, but it's limits are not very far ahead of the current models out there, that is assuming its limits are ahead of the others at all.

You missed my point. My point is, that at some time, and I think we are very close to it now, we will see a plateau in the distance achieved. Once that happens, it will not be until some new, as yet unknown, advance in materials science will cause another huge surge in the field of swoopology.

I do not think we will see 500ft swoops anytime soon, but then, I have been wrong before.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 3, 2005, 10:48 PM
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Re: [jdfreefly] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
advance in materials science will cause another huge surge in the field of swoopology.

I really don't feel like it'll be a new material, but a break out of the current paradigm of canopy design using current technology. ZP has been around for a very long time (relatively speaking) and it has only recently been used to a very full extent, but that's been to "new" canopy designs. Hence the high end swoop monsters we have now.

I feel like there's going to be an advancement that will take formed noses to a whole 'nother level, basically leaving the concept of ram-air behind, using another force to pressurize the cells. Possibly over pressurizing the cells creating an even more rigid wing then our current technology, having less drag, etc.

Who will do it? Fucked if I know, but I have a feeling whoever makes that next step will make some decent money with patents...just like another skydiving pioneer with a different take on gear has done.Wink


Bartje  (E License)

Jan 4, 2005, 5:14 AM
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Re: [D22369] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I remember reading about that 435 footer, way too awsome, and have seen some hot swoopers hitting 300+ on a regular basis.
the 435 was during the dutch Swoop Tour at Stadtlohn (Germany)
There seem to be problems with the record to be official but it was with an electronic eye an laser distance mesurement I belive.
more info at: http://www.euroswooop.com/dutch/2004/IndexResults.htm
It is in meters.
Like you said, not on a regular basis.


D22369  (D 22369)

Jan 4, 2005, 5:25 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

 Possibly over pressurizing the cells creating an even more rigid wing then our current technology
Quote:

boy,......I dont know if the swoopers are gonna wanna jump with an oversized battery powered industrial strength tire pumpTongue and think of the new mals you could have....... deployment....everything is fine, push the button, and POP!!!.......orrrrr.....push the button and ZAP!!! I can see the writup now...... faulty wiring led to the midair electrocution of this poor bastard.......Crazy TongueTongue

Joke...joke.......jest jokin!!! Cool <I crack me up>

Roy


Spizzzarko

Jan 4, 2005, 8:12 AM
Post #17 of 46 (1452 views)
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Re: [D22369] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been told by several different people, who are near PD, that there is a new High Performance PD canopy that is being tested that will outswoop the velocity. I have been thinking last night about what the future may bring for canopy's. I think maybee rigidity is the way of the future. This can be done maybee with some sort of inflatable air locked inner spar. More inner ribs and cross braces. Maybee cross braces that just don't attach to the top skin, but CB's that attach to the bottom skin too. Maybee a thinner airfoil. This draw back of these idea's will be pack volume, but that may solve the problems of rig sizing. If the main packs up bigger than you can have a bigger reserve container.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 4, 2005, 8:19 AM
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Quote:
I dont know if the swoopers are gonna wanna jump with an oversized battery powered industrial strength tire pump

That's better then the hand operated football pump with the long chord I had invisioned...Tongue


Spizzzarko

Jan 4, 2005, 8:36 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I figured we would just use one of those old bicycle foot pumps, that would always fall over to one side or the other just as you were stepping on it. We could just hold it in our hands and pump with a clapping motion durring inflation. Of course we would have to install FXC's on our main because our hands would be full so we couldn't pull the Pilot chute. We would also need spring loaded pilot chutes.Smile


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 4, 2005, 8:59 AM
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Re: [Spizzzarko] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Maybee a thinner airfoil.


Thats the idea, Less drag.

The formed nose thingy is something too. If you could get a canopy into a wind tunnel, with a closed nose, inflated with a pump through the tail (or side or wherever), you could monitor the air pressure in different areas of the canopy. If you could find a high enough pressure to inflate and maintain a canopy somewhere else but the nose, you'd be on to something. The air inlets have to create alot of drag, so if you could get rid of them, you're going faster.

How a canpoy like that would open, who knows.

Different bracing that allows a reduction of lines would be good.

Loose the stabs (like the JVX).

Increase the aspect ratio (again the opening/ staying open situaiotn).

Taper the nose as well as the tail (a true elipse)?


Keep in mind that all of the above are for better fatser longer swoops, not safe canopy decents. If you want safe, jump a Spectre 170.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jan 4, 2005, 1:38 PM
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Re: [jdfreefly] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think that technology will be something along these lines:
A material that can be folded but will retain a memory of the shape it wants. The nose portion of the ribs will be made of this material, making parachutes a semi-rigid wing that can be folded into a container.

With the thought that wing suiters might land sometime, perhaps something starting to resemble a tiny hangglider. But would that be considered a swoop? And could they safely do it for that distance?


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Jan 4, 2005, 2:31 PM
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Re: [kelpdiver] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
perhaps something starting to resemble a tiny hangglider


who knows where it could go, but i do know the a more ridged wing is what we're looking for..........have you ever seen the speed gliders?? i've never seen them in real life, but i've seen some shows on them and god damn are they fast, and as far as landing, they "swoop", if you want to call it that, for ever, much longer than what our canopies can do right now.


just a thought.


later


Spizzzarko

Jan 4, 2005, 3:11 PM
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Re: [skygod7777] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Well hell,

We might as well all sell our rigs and such and just get hanggliders. Imagine swooping ultra fast and long over the ground with your knuckles only an inch or so off the dirt. It would be the ultimate superman!!!!


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Jan 4, 2005, 3:22 PM
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Re: [Spizzzarko] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Well hell,

We might as well all sell our rigs and such and just get hanggliders. Imagine swooping ultra fast and long over the ground with your knuckles only an inch or so off the dirt. It would be the ultimate superman!!!!


oh shit son, i know you didn't just say that.......i mean come on, you can go fast and carve hard with those, but really how you going to do a phatty lazyboy with a hang glider Tongue


later


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jan 4, 2005, 3:56 PM
Post #25 of 46 (1316 views)
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Re: [D22369] what is next.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you think Canopy's have maxed out yet?

Nope. Wing structures (leading edge, bracing, etc) inflated with an external high-pressure source look like a nice idea for purpose-built swooping canopies (nose-down trims, detachable slider/pilot chutes, etc. are already taking us down this path).

In reply to:
will we ever see canopy's approach or exceed a 400-500' swoop on a regular basis?

Most pilots aren't there.


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