Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
So many canopies, so little credit line...

 

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GrumpySmurf  (C 32988)

May 1, 2002, 7:48 PM
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     So many canopies, so little credit line...  

So now, I am about to take the Sabre2 demo for the 2nd weekend of playing (glide and flare are nice, but it appears to turn too slow for my liking) - the Cobalt is soon to arrive (hopefully) and now Big Air Sportz got back to me so that they can hook me up with both their mains (Lotus and Samurai) to try out.

So a query for opinions - does one stay with an intermediate (slightly tapered, ZP) canopy and downsize one? Or does one stay with the same size of canopy they currently jump, but move to a more advanced (elliptical, ZP) wing?

Pros/cons of either?




watcher  (D 24876)

May 1, 2002, 8:04 PM
Post #2 of 71 (2751 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

Do both, downsize and go elliptical, when you change wings its gonna be different anyways might as well go down too. yeah everyone on this forum will prob tell you differently, ill might even get flamed too, but i dont think changeing from one canopy type to another was that big of a deal. From personal expirence i went from a 170 Square to a 120 Elliptical. But im always disagreeing with the ppl on the forum so i accept that as my fate.

Jonathan
D-24876



bhale  (D 16581)

May 2, 2002, 5:29 AM
Post #3 of 71 (2691 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

I think it really depends on you: how many jumps on current canopy, landings on current canopy-on a HOT no wind summer day, and your satisfaction level with current canopy.
You should NEVER rush downsizing. I, personally, believe you should make a couple of hundred jumps on one size before downsizing. You are definitely on the right track, by demo'ing several canopies.
When making the decision, keep those Hot, no wind days in mind. I vote Cobalt!



rhino  (D 22500)

May 2, 2002, 7:26 AM
Post #4 of 71 (2656 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

Don't forget to try the crossfire..

Blue Skies ..... Wink



Premier skybytch  (D License)

May 2, 2002, 7:43 AM
Post #5 of 71 (2647 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

In reply to:
So a query for opinions - does one stay with an intermediate (slightly tapered, ZP) canopy and downsize one? Or does one stay with the same size of canopy they currently jump, but move to a more advanced (elliptical, ZP) wing?
*conservatism alert! conservatism alert!*

Depends on what you want out of the canopy, what kind of landings you are doing now, how many jumps you have on what you've got and what kind of wingloading you're already flying. Assuming that you have at least a hundred jumps or more on your current canopy my recommendation would be to fly both types at the wingloading you're already used to, then if you want more speed or responsiveness than either one gives you try flying both types one size smaller.

In any case, a few things to consider before downsizing on either type - can you land your current main in a backyard if you had to? How good were your last 50 or so landings - into the wind, in no wind, crosswind, downwind, on a hot day? If you aren't 100% on what you've got imho downsizing is not a good idea. And... how current do you stay?

pull & flare,
lisa
---
On the other hand...you have different fingers


bhale  (D 16581)

May 2, 2002, 7:48 AM
Post #6 of 71 (2643 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

Could also be read as, "Stay alive/intact alert".
Good points, as always.



GrumpySmurf  (C 32988)

May 2, 2002, 8:06 AM
Post #7 of 71 (2627 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

Thanx on the input - will keep it in mind. Currently jumping a Safire-169 (picked it up last fall, it's on old retired student main - it probably has in excess of 1,500 jumps on it - I've added about 70 since early winter - I'll probably toss another 100 on it by the end of summer before getting a new one).

Opinion of current main:
1) The glide sucks - this is hasn't really been a problem until it dawned on me that all the spots I use for off landings from long spots will be covered in 6 feet of corn or 2 feet of soybeans come later this summer. The only time the glide was ok was when there was next to 0 winds when I was jumping on the west coast of Costa Rica in Feb (in the middle of thier 'summer').
2) The opennings have gotten increasingly funky ever since it kind of got immersed in saltwater in Feb. Blush (refer to 0 wind day in Costa Rica, above - I kind of overshot my landing spot and ended up kind of in the ocean) - tried hosing it down and letting it hang dry in the shade. I think the fabric was most likely abused as a student main, and the saltwater might have been the proverbial straw.

3) Most importantly, I'm becoming bored with it (I expected this to happen within a year or so when I bought it, since it was my first main) - aside from the opennings, of course - they are sort of like playing - 'Spin the Malfunction Wheel' Wink. About the only thing I haven't really tired are high perfomance landings, since I'm too much a lowtimer to try it (and it helps to watch people, with alot more experience than I, smack into the ground face first when they botch thiers).

I remember reading something along the lines of 'rather than downsize, try a more advanced canopy of the same size that you currently use' (sounds like something Lisa/Skybytch would say, that maybe where I read it) - thus why I asked.

I've been really hoping we might have a no wind day to see what it is like - but asking for a no-wind day in Chicago is like asked to win PowerBall -> good luck. I will certainly try to keep in mind what it would feel like with no winds - I certainly have learned, when in doubt - wear nylon pants and aim for the big field of mud - dirt comes out faster than broken stuff heals Smile




GrumpySmurf  (C 32988)

May 2, 2002, 8:15 AM
Post #8 of 71 (2622 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Assuming that you have at least a hundred jumps or more on your current canopy my
recommendation would be to fly both types at the wingloading you're already used to,
Trust me, you have taught me well Smile

Yeah I've been rather firm with the manufacturers about only trying mains in the size I currently jump - even if they recommend going one size down. I'd rather be bored on my first jump with a demo main, than in the hospital after my first jump on a demo main. Of course it doesn't help when each of them uses a different measurement system from the others - so trying to be objective in 'is it the main or is it the size' that is resulting in the performance loss/gain is proving tricky.



skycat  (D 25740)

May 2, 2002, 8:31 AM
Post #9 of 71 (2613 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

In reply to:
2) The opennings have gotten increasingly funky ever since it kind of got immersed in saltwater in Feb. (refer to 0 wind day in Costa Rica, above - I kind of overshot my landing spot and ended up kind of in the ocean) - tried hosing it down and letting it hang dry in the shade. I think the fabric was most likely abused as a student main, and the saltwater might have been the proverbial straw.
You may need a reline, depending on how many jumps the lines had on them to begin with that little swim could have put them over the edge or made them shrink unevenly (if spectra). Have a rigger take a look at your lines next time you are at the DZ.




rhino  (D 22500)

May 2, 2002, 8:35 AM
Post #10 of 71 (2610 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

The crossfire has a kick ass glide.. Smile

Blue Skies ..... Wink



GrumpySmurf  (C 32988)

May 2, 2002, 8:52 AM
Post #11 of 71 (2601 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

Shameless plug, eh? Smile
I will keep them in mind, want to see what the general public thinks of the updated XFire before looking at it. After Big Air, Icarus will be next on my list to contact - I will want try out both the new Safire and the XFire.



GrumpySmurf  (C 32988)

May 2, 2002, 8:58 AM
Post #12 of 71 (2599 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

Not a bad idea - though they are Vectran, I figure they would fuzz up long before going out of trim - though with saltwater exposure, that may not longer be the case.
Thanx on the suggestion!




rhino  (D 22500)

May 2, 2002, 9:01 AM
Post #13 of 71 (2597 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

I have a new crossfire2 that will be here in a couple of weeks.. I'll post after I jump it. I can't wait!!!!!

Blue Skies ..... Wink



Premier skybytch  (D License)

May 2, 2002, 10:03 AM
Post #14 of 71 (2581 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

>The crossfire has a kick ass glide.
Before recommending a Crossfire to someone... you might want to find out how many jumps they have.

pull & flare,
lisa
---
On the other hand...you have different fingers


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 2, 2002, 10:23 AM
Post #15 of 71 (2570 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

>So a query for opinions - does one stay with an intermediate (slightly tapered,
> ZP) canopy and downsize one? Or does one stay with the same size of canopy
> they currently jump, but move to a more advanced (elliptical, ZP) wing?

Don't forget the third one - stick with what lands you safely. Downsizing or going more aggressive is not always the hot ticket. My canopy right now is a 1.7 to 1 elliptical - my next will probably be a 1.5 to 1 semi-elliptical, maybe even a 7-cell. Looking at what kind of jumping I'll be doing over the next year or so (mainly big ways) I need slow flight and opening performance more than I need swoop-ability.

-bill von


rhino  (D 22500)

May 2, 2002, 10:32 AM
Post #16 of 71 (2566 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

If she is demoing a cobalt she can handle a crossfire at an equal wing loading I am sure. Besides I was commenting on glide.

Blue Skies ..... Wink



Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
May 2, 2002, 10:40 AM
Post #17 of 71 (2561 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

I'm not sure how many jumps Mark is up to but I'm remembering he posted about 150 not long ago.Thats the lowest jumps I'd EVER tell anyone to look at a Crossfire or Cobalt at near the loading he is going for. My money is on the Lotus for you Mark..... Its just a freaking sweet canopy from all accounts and BigAir is the shinitz. Just try and find a used Lotus.... not going to.. .they are horded away Smile

If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....


GrumpySmurf  (C 32988)

May 2, 2002, 11:11 AM
Post #18 of 71 (2549 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

In reply to:
She
*blink blink*



kallend  (D 23151)

May 2, 2002, 11:17 AM
Post #19 of 71 (2544 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

<<<ou should NEVER rush downsizing. >>>

I agree; you should start small and then you don't need to downsize.



hobbes4star  (B 24739)

May 2, 2002, 11:18 AM
Post #20 of 71 (2542 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

i would do both go elleptical and downsize. but that is my preferance. it depends on you. you are the one flying it, and landing it.

why jump when you can fly


rhino  (D 22500)

May 2, 2002, 11:35 AM
Post #21 of 71 (2531 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

Sorry Mark. lol

Blue Skies ..... Wink



airdrew20012001  (D 24834)

May 2, 2002, 11:39 AM
Post #22 of 71 (2529 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Do both, downsize and go elliptical, when you change wings its gonna be different anyways might as well go down too. yeah everyone on this forum will prob tell you differently, ill might even get flamed too,
I agree, that's what I did. I went from a triathalon 160 that I had totally maxed the performance out on to a stilletto 135. Just be really cognizant that you are in a whole new ball game and have to start over from scratch. I went beck to striaght in landings with a little double front riser. I am now back to 90s but was cranking pretty agressive 270's before I made the change.

Drewfus McDoofus


GrumpySmurf  (C 32988)

May 2, 2002, 11:43 AM
Post #23 of 71 (2526 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

Actually, it's more like 120 jumps right now (of which, over a hundred on a 170 of some form - Safire or Sabre2). Exit weight is 210 - 215 ish, jumping a Safire 169. The Lotus definitely caught my eye as one to try. The debate really came down to - stay with a 170 sq.ft canopy but take a look at more tapered canopies, or stay with the lightly tapered sort and follow through the downsize plan set for later this year. I was jumping a 170 Sabre2 at the end of my student training (the benefit of AFP training on ZP mains, I guess) and was happy with it afterwards (even downwinded it once on a hot sunny day and walked away without a scratch, 6 years of aikido paid off Smile) - I figured I'd put off the downsizing to a 150 for a year and see how things were going at that point.
Subsequently snagged a used Safire 169 early winter (little did I know I was in fact downsizing) and am now bored with it - and thus why demoing mains. Went back to trying a Sabre2 170 demo, flies nice, but is a little sluggish compared to the Safire - though I like the glide and flare (and PD gets a solid thumbs up on customer service) - it's this sluggishness in turns and unresponsiveness to harness input that made me start wondering about a more tapered wing.

Figured I'd pose the question, if you felt you were ready to downsize one size on a slightly tapered main, would you do so, or would you instead stay with the same size and look at a more elliptical wing - what would be the Pros and Cons of each decision. Which do you feel is the wiser progression - downsizing then moving to more advanced wings as experience grows, or moving to a more advanced wing then downsizing, again - as experience grows. I feel it very unlikely I will do both at once. Figured I'd invite a discussion.
Billvon, though does raise a valid point - upsizing based on a need to land safely with the type of flying you do.



rhino  (D 22500)

May 2, 2002, 11:45 AM
Post #24 of 71 (2521 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

You also may want to Demo a Diablo... Talk about fun!!

Blue Skies ..... Wink



GrumpySmurf  (C 32988)

May 2, 2002, 11:47 AM
Post #25 of 71 (2520 views)
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     Re: So many canopies, so little credit line... [In reply to]  

Kewl - Velocity 79 - here I come! Smile
Can I count the canopy decent as freefall time?




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