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Javelin Vs. Racer

 

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CISSCO101  (D 22901)

Dec 16, 2004, 10:45 AM
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Javelin Vs. Racer Can't Post

I am in the process of selling my javelin odessey and want to purchase a Racer 2k3.Can anyone shed some light on this question backed up fact not fiction,of if any thing whats wrong with this. I also am selling my Sabre2 and updating to an same size Stiletto,are there any real problems with the stiletto that PD will not admit.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 16, 2004, 10:53 AM
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Re: [CISSCO101] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Whats wrong with the Jav? What are looking for in a new rig?

There is nothing wrong with a Stiletto.

Edit: Why are you getting rid of the Sabre2?

A Jav with a Sabre2 sounds like a solid setup to me.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Dec 16, 2004, 10:55 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Dec 16, 2004, 10:53 AM
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Re: [CISSCO101] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

>Can anyone shed some light on this question backed up fact not
> fiction,of if any thing whats wrong with this.

No serious problems there; it's all in what you like. You will have to be more selective in choosing a rigger; not all riggers can pack racers well, and a poorly packed racer can be dangerous.

>I also am selling my Sabre2 and updating to an same size
> Stiletto,are there any real problems with the stiletto that PD will
>not admit.

The Stiletto works OK. I don't recommend them to most people because it's an old design and there are far better ones on the market now. But some people swear by them; it's all in what you're used to.


CISSCO101  (D 22901)

Dec 16, 2004, 10:58 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

all I ever hear is negative things about the racer and nothing really positive.anything from how bad they are to repach to the main flap comes open in freefall.the stilitto is a different matter the word is they open hard and they spin up quite often.


CISSCO101  (D 22901)

Dec 16, 2004, 11:03 AM
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Re: [billvon] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

thank you for the reply and will take your advise and get the stiletto,but have to research the racer as all i hear is nothing but negative thigs about it. I lookat it in this way if, it was such a bad rig it would not sell at all.


sid  (D 20135)

Dec 16, 2004, 11:04 AM
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Re: [billvon] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

 Quote
"No serious problems there; it's all in what you like. You will have to be more selective in choosing a rigger; not all riggers can pack racers well, and a poorly packed racer can be dangerous."


to be fair Bill, a poorly packed anything can be dangerous. I've seen more than my fair share of Javelins with pilot chute hanging out and the pop-top sitting up on top of the pack job because the rigger only knew one way to pack a reserve. I even found a closing loop routed like this one http://www.sidsrigging.com/riggers/whats_wrong.htm


sid  (D 20135)

Dec 16, 2004, 11:16 AM
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Re: [CISSCO101] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
all I ever hear is negative things about the racer and nothing really positive.anything from how bad they are to repach to the main flap comes open in freefall.the stilitto is a different matter the word is they open hard and they spin up quite often.

To put this in perspective, when I was training to be a rigger one of the people I apprenticed under said they hated Racers and when I got my ticket I should refuse to pack them. I ended up working for JumpShack because, following a couple of packing classes, I found that the Racer (especially the new 2K3) is one of the safest and strongest rigs on the market. The 2K3 is probably the most freefly friendly rig out there and once you learn a couple of basic techniques the reserve repack is easier on this rig than many, many others. I decided to work for a manufacturer, I looked at the rigs out there and chose this one, despite the fact I had been "warned away" from the rig by one of my mentors. I may be biased because I now work for the manufacturer, but as a rigger with his own client base I'll pack a Racer over most other rigs any day.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 16, 2004, 11:21 AM
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Re: [CISSCO101] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
all I ever hear is negative things about the racer

Didn't you say you were buying one? I wouldn't have 1000's of jumps on my Racer if I thought there was a problem, I'm just wondering why you are switching from your Jav. They are also good rigs, and if you have a problem or complaint, I'd be interested to know what it is.

As far as the Stiletto, I also wouldn't have 1000's of jumps on them if they had any problems. I have not had hard openings, nor any line twists on any of my Stilettos. Again, though, why the change from the Sabre2? What are you looking for in a new canopy?

My questions are not objections to your choices, but an attempt to understand your motivation for changing your gear. Is your harness ill fitting or uncomfortable? Is the container sizing wrong? Does your Sabre2 open hard, or not on heading? Does the glide and flare performance meet your needs?

Knowing what you hope to gain by switching your gear is essential for making reccomendations for alternate equipment.


Canuck

Dec 16, 2004, 11:43 AM
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Re: [CISSCO101] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

I wont comment on the Racer vs. Jav. because I've never owned either one.

As for the Stiletto, the design is around 12 years old, and people are still buying them new. That says something. You will rarely find somebody who says Stillettos open hard. I've jumped 107s, 120s, 135s, and 150s and always had nice openings. Most people that complain about them spinning up are on an out of trim lineset, or have shitty body position.

Canuck


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Dec 16, 2004, 11:46 AM
Post #10 of 94 (2785 views)
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Re: [sid] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

>to be fair Bill, a poorly packed anything can be dangerous.

True. But:

1) a Racer is an unusual design, one that requires tricks that are not part of your typical rigger's experience. Since there are no other rigs on the US market that are closed like a racer (even the reflex isn't that similar) the skills to do so are pretty specialized.

2) to properly repack a racer often involves tacking and fabricating new parts (like the double ended running closing loop.) If a rigger does not know how to do this, he may omit the step. I've seen this happen a lot.

3) A poorly proportioned reserve is a snag risk due to the elevated pop top. This is true of the reflex as well, but not very true of internal PC rigs due to the added protection of the pin covers.

Most riggers would have no problem learning how to pack racers if they don't already know, and the training is readily available (Jump Shack does a seminar at every PIA, for example.) You just have to make sure your rigger can do it.


brits17  (D 24752)

Dec 16, 2004, 11:46 AM
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Re: [CISSCO101] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

Stiletto's are not hard opening canopies, and I rarely hear of them 'spinning up.' I think you'd be happy with one.

As far as the Racer goes, well I wouldn't say they're THE most freefly friendly rig out there, but in Sid's defense, they are a breeze for packing a reserve Wink There are pros and cons, if you do a search in the gear and rigging forum, you'll find tons of info.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Dec 16, 2004, 11:48 AM
Post #12 of 94 (2785 views)
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Re: [CISSCO101] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

>the stilitto is a different matter the word is they open hard and they
>spin up quite often.

They are more likely to spin up than some other canopies, but keep in mind that when Stilettos first came out no one understood the importance of keeping your shoulders square etc. so there were more such incidents.


hookitt  (D License)

Dec 16, 2004, 11:48 AM
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Re: [sid] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The 2K3 is probably the most freefly friendly rig out there and once you learn a couple of basic techniques the reserve repack is easier on this rig than many, many others.

I will not agree with that first part. On what do you base that on? How is the 2K3 more freefly friendly than say, a Mirage or an Infinity or a VooDoo.

Racers are not difficult to pack. That I will agree on.

edit to add the quotes


(This post was edited by hookitt on Dec 16, 2004, 11:48 AM)


lewmonst  (D 24575)

Dec 16, 2004, 1:50 PM
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Re: [billvon] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>the stilitto is a different matter the word is they open hard and they
>spin up quite often.

They are more likely to spin up than some other canopies

yep. my only chop was a stiletto. And I have had a few hard openings on stiletto's. most (200ish) were just fine though.

I still don't understand why you'd want to sell an Odyssey and Sabre2...

peace
lew


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Dec 16, 2004, 2:58 PM
Post #15 of 94 (2690 views)
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Re: [CISSCO101] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Sid, the 2K3 is a solid performer in any discipline of skydiving. I fly my 2k3s for Birdman, tandem camera(mostly on my back or sit) and for RW. Forget everythiing negative you've heard about racers when it comes to the 2k3.Everything stays closed and it's still the most comfortable and lightest rig on the market. But don't take my or anyones elses word for it, demo one and decide for yourself if you like the way it fits and flys, you won't be disappointed. I like my 2k3s so much I also had them make me a 2k3 tandem rig that weighs in at an industry unmatched 38lbs complete.


Another great thing about JumpShack is that your total turn around time for a custom built rig is 2-3 weeks on average. My custom tandem rig/chutes was built in an amazing 3 days time and in my hands by weeks end.


(This post was edited by LouDiamond on Dec 16, 2004, 3:04 PM)


CISSCO101  (D 22901)

Dec 16, 2004, 3:02 PM
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Re: [davelepka] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

the reason I would like to get rid of the javelin is that pilot chute and the way it is packed or should I say jamed under the cap.The reason for the stiletto is that I want a little faster turn without having to run like carzy to land it.I think size for size both the sabre and stiletto are fast in a stright line but thestiletto has a little faster turn .I am not planning to get nuts with it just a little faster turn for fun.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Dec 16, 2004, 3:08 PM
Post #17 of 94 (2682 views)
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Re: [CISSCO101] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
.the stilitto is a different matter the word is they open hard and they spin up quite often.

I never had a hard opening in 600 jumps. Other people's experience is similar. They don't open as slow as a Spectre but aren't anything like a Monarch or Sabre.

They don't spin up any more often than many other ellipticals.

They were many people's first elliptical (mine was built arround 1994) and ellipticals will spin if you open both in a turn and with line twists. Failure to fly through the opening or deal with problems early makes this more likely. Trim problems are also an issue.

Compared to the squares that were popular when Stilettos started to become common this was a problem. With a modern frame of reference it's not.

Newer designs equal or better the Stiletto's performance in all areas. Most notable are longer recovery arcs, lower stall speeds, and perhaps better response to harness input. The Stiletto does have nice control pressures and is pretty peppy - I didn't find anything I liked better until I jumped a Samurai.

You won't beat the price of a used Stiletto though.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Dec 16, 2004, 3:15 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 16, 2004, 3:17 PM
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Re: [CISSCO101] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

 
OK, in that case, keep in mind that any reserve pilot chute is 'jammed' under the cap. Many rigs (Vector, Talon, Infinity) hide this business under the flaps. The Racer exposes the pilot chute completely, and unless packed correctly, you may not be happy with that rig either. Try taking your rig to another rigger for your next repack, show them what you don't like about it, and see if they think they can do better.

As far as the canopy goes, the turns on the Stiletto are fast. You should have no problem landing the 190, or even the 170, without any running. Maybe demo both, and see what you think. If you are having to run with either canopy, ask one of the swoopers to watch/film your landing and see what's up.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Dec 16, 2004, 3:23 PM
Post #19 of 94 (2663 views)
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Re: [CISSCO101] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

>the reason I would like to get rid of the javelin is that pilot chute and the
>way it is packed or should I say jamed under the cap.

Yikes! I would advise trying a different rigger before you sell the rig. Any rig looks bad if you pack it poorly, and a racer without a divot in the freebag, and with a poorly tightened PC, looks much worse than a javelin with the same problems. A correctly sized rig and a competent rigger are requirements if you want any rig to look good.

>The reason for the stiletto is that I want a little faster turn without having
> to run like carzy to land it.

Consider something like a pilot/safire2 for a bit more lift than the sabre2, or a nitro for more lift and snappier turns. All three will have better openings than the stiletto. Like I mentioned before, there's nothing wrong with the stiletto, but it will not give you the performance (opening, turning, flaring, HP landings etc) that a more modern canopy will.

(Warning for AggieDave - I have been sponsored in one way or another by Flitesuit, Tony Suit, Hiper, Aerodyne, Fliteline, Airtec, Gravity Gear and Precision.)


NightJumper  (D License)

Dec 16, 2004, 3:26 PM
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Re: [billvon] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
True. But:

1) a Racer is an unusual design, one that requires tricks that are not part of your typical rigger's experience. Since there are no other rigs on the US market that are closed like a racer (even the reflex isn't that similar) the skills to do so are pretty specialized.
That is silly since all the different rigs have different tricks to packing them.
Quote:
2) to properly repack a racer often involves tacking and fabricating new parts (like the double ended running closing loop.) If a rigger does not know how to do this, he may omit the step. I've seen this happen a lot.
How do you "omit" a closing loop and still close the container?TongueAnd how often do you have to replace that loop? I replaced probably three in a year working at the factory. If the rigger follows the instructions and/or contacts the factory like any rigger would do with any rig this should not be an issue. Do you think that the closing loops are all of the same length and route the same for all of the other rigs? No, they are all different. And if putting a finger trap in both ends of cypres cord is too complicated for a rigger then they should not be rigging.
Quote:
3) A poorly proportioned reserve is a snag risk due to the elevated pop top. This is true of the reflex as well, but not very true of internal PC rigs due to the added protection of the pin covers.
And the same is true for the semi-pop tops like Javelin, Wings and also if the cover flap comes open on some of the internal pilot chute containers.
Quote:
Most riggers would have no problem learning how to pack racers if they don't already know, and the training is readily available (Jump Shack does a seminar at every PIA, for example.) You just have to make sure your rigger can do it.
This is true, Jump Shack gave factory rigging classes at every boogie that Jump Shack was at including Rantoul.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 16, 2004, 3:40 PM
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Re: [NightJumper] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

I can, but will not pack either Racers or Reflex's because the closing loop may be tightened from outside the container without disturbing the seal and may be accidentally over-tightened by a well-meaning rigger, the owner, or anyone else. This can:

* create a pull above the maximum of 22 pounds
* create an impossible pull
* bend the ripcord pin.

That leaves the rigger with the seal on the rig responsible for the over-tightened closing loop.

I also do not like the concept of returning to rubber bands for locking the free-bag closed on the reserve, nor do I like the pop top design that can create a snag hazard.

Derek


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Dec 16, 2004, 4:02 PM
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Re: [NightJumper] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

>That is silly since all the different rigs have different tricks to packing them.

Of course. But the most common rigs out there are internal pilot chute reserves. They are what most riggers are used to.

It's like dealing with an airplane. If you have a Cessna 172 most FBO's will be able to deal with minor repairs on it. If you have an AN-2, you're going to have a lot more trouble finding someone to work on it, and who can do a good job with the oddities of that plane (like servicing rubber-bladder brakes.) Doesn't mean an AN-2 is a bad airplane, just that it needs someone who is familiar with what it takes to maintain them.

>How do you "omit" a closing loop and still close the container?

You omit replacing it and use the old one. I've seen more than one Racer pack job with badly frayed closing loops because the rigger didn't want to make a quickloop. Again, it's not hard to make, just different. It took me a few pack jobs to get used to mine.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Dec 16, 2004, 4:12 PM
Post #23 of 94 (2583 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

All of that has been covered before and I know you're well aware that:

1. If you're worried about somone adjusting the closing loops you can tack them down after the hat has been tightened down.

2. Customers have the option of a freebag with rubber bands or a bungy. But if high speed reserve deployments are a concern then the rubber banded speedbag is the way to go. It is also why ALL the manufacturers use this method when drop testing their canopies.

3. A properly seated hat poses no snag hazard whatso ever. A rigger can do the simple line/hat check before giving the rig back to the customer. Many a CREW dog would also agree.


NightJumper  (D License)

Dec 16, 2004, 4:14 PM
Post #24 of 94 (2580 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I can, but will not pack either Racers or Reflex's because the closing loop may be tightened from outside the container without disturbing the seal and may be accidentally over-tightened by a well-meaning rigger, the owner, or anyone else. This can:

* create a pull above the maximum of 22 pounds
* create an impossible pull
* bend the ripcord pin.

That leaves the rigger with the seal on the rig responsible for the over-tightened closing loop.
Riggers can and have over tightened ANY rig. One even resulted in a fatality (50lbs and not a Racer). In fact ALL three of the items that you listed above can be done on any rig by any rigger. And you were told by me how to prevent tampering and it is also listed in the manual. In addition, in over 30 years that Racers have been made there has never been a malfunction as a result of the senario that you posted. So now let me make sure I understand you concern: You are worried about something that could happen that in thirty years has never happend?
Quote:
I also do not like the concept of returning to rubber bands for locking the free-bag closed on the reserve
Why?
Quote:
nor do I like the pop top design that can create a snag hazard.
The snag issue has already been addressed in the prior post and is just another "what if I do somthing wrong then this could happen".


NightJumper  (D License)

Dec 16, 2004, 4:22 PM
Post #25 of 94 (2575 views)
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Re: [billvon] Javelin Vs. Racer [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
But the most common rigs out there are internal pilot chute reserves. They are what most riggers are used to.
Really? I bet Javelin, Wings and a few other manufactures would disagree with you on that.
Quote:
You omit replacing it and use the old one. I've seen more than one Racer pack job with badly frayed closing loops because the rigger didn't want to make a quickloop. Again, it's not hard to make, just different. It took me a few pack jobs to get used to mine.
Then the issue is not the Rig it is the lazy rigger that needs to give up rigging. And unfortunately the same thing has happened on every other type rig. Ask any rigger with any experience if they have seen a rig with a frayed closing loop?


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