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What are these? Canopy Warts?

 

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JohnRich  (D License)

Nov 29, 2004, 2:57 PM
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What are these? Canopy Warts? Can't Post

What the heck are these little tubes on top of the end cells of this canopy? (See the attached photo.)
Attachments: PB280064s.JPG (35.6 KB)


bmcd308  (D 27472)

Nov 29, 2004, 3:06 PM
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Re: [JohnRich] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ask Beezy.


nicknitro71  (D 26704)

Nov 29, 2004, 3:10 PM
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Re: [JohnRich] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.precision.aero/nitron.htm

http://www.hiperusa.com/nitro.html


(This post was edited by nicknitro71 on Nov 29, 2004, 3:12 PM)


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Nov 29, 2004, 3:34 PM
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Re: [JohnRich] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

That is what marketing people call a gimmick.

It is a useless thing that is advertised to make people believe they need that product.


piisfish

Nov 29, 2004, 4:19 PM
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Re: [jdfreefly] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

In my novice opinion they are not gimmicks...

These stabilisers reduce the wingtip vortices and therefore allow a slower stall speed.

They are alsoo commonly used by Advance Paragliders.

edited to put correct link


(This post was edited by piisfish on Nov 29, 2004, 7:24 PM)


hooligan  (D 28141)

Nov 29, 2004, 4:47 PM
Post #6 of 79 (2595 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

i like to call them line-over keepers


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 29, 2004, 4:53 PM
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Re: [jdfreefly] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That is what marketing people call a gimmick.

It is a useless thing that is advertised to make people believe they need that product.

I take it that is just your opinion? The engineers designing high speed airplane wings and NASA think they might serve a purpose.


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 29, 2004, 5:23 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The engineers designing high speed airplane wings and NASA think they might serve a purpose.

Canopies don't go that fast yet, do you really think that at the speeds reached even on a full speed approach at a higher then normal wingloading (3.0-ish:1) that it would make a difference?

I don't doubt they make a difference in aircraft applications, I really think that all they do for current design canopies is increase drag.


diablopilot  (D License)

Nov 29, 2004, 6:38 PM
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Re: [jdfreefly] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
That is what marketing people call a gimmick.

It is a useless thing that is advertised to make people believe they need that product.

The above is what people call an "opinion", and it's a pretty poor one at that.


From my experience (and I've test jumped ALOT of canopies) they do indeed make a difference in how the canopy flies. They definately improve slow speed handling and stall caracheristics without slowing the natural speed of the canopy in flight or a dive much at all if any.

Do a search....


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Nov 29, 2004, 6:42 PM)


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Nov 29, 2004, 6:41 PM
Post #10 of 79 (2507 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The above is what people cal an "opinion", and it's a pretty poor one at that.

Granted, but if they made that much of a difference you don't think other manufacturers would follow suit?

Maybe they make a difference, maybe they don't. My moneys on "doubt it" though.

It'd be nice if someone like John Leblanc or an actual canopy manufacturer (someone involved in the aerodynamic side of it) stepped in with some info on these (I'm sure they've all researched them)

Blues,
Ian
Blues,
Ian


diablopilot  (D License)

Nov 29, 2004, 6:46 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Granted, but if they made that much of a difference you don't think other manufacturers would follow suit?

A) at least one manufacturer did. Precision.

B) No, maybe they don't believe it, or maybe they don't wish to pay royalties on the idea as people did with the 3 ring, or the Crossbraced canopy.

Quote:
It'd be nice if someone like John Leblanc or an actual canopy manufacturer (someone involved in the aerodynamic side of it) stepped in with some info on these (I'm sure they've all researched them)

Several people have. Beezy, the original designer, several test pilots.....you just haven't heard it from who you want......what makes you think John LeBlanc knows anything about them?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Nov 29, 2004, 7:13 PM
Post #12 of 79 (2490 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A) at least one manufacturer did. Precision.

Ok, so 2 out of how many? Not mention that one was a partner so they had all the designs and schematics. I don't see these on the XAOS which, I believe, came out after they had this technology......

Quote:
Several people have. Beezy, the original designer, several test pilots

The only KNOWLEDGEABLE person I've heard comment on is Beezy. Beezy has come out openly and said he didn't understand the in depth technical aspects of them and couldn't give details.

Quote:
you just haven't heard it from who you want

You're right, there hasn't been one instance (that I've read) of data presented. All I've read is speculation. Beezy's been very forthcoming with what he knows, but read above. Sorry but I want to hear other manufacturers experience, if any, dealing with these things. Just cause "you say so" isn't good enough for me, last I checked you didn't manufacture these things either.

As for John Leblanc it was an example take it as such.

edit: I have no vested interest whether these work or not, but I read some comments where people who simply don't have the DATA are talking about these things like they're a fact. Basically I see 1 person with any knowledge (Beezy) giving information and everyone else speculating on either side.

Blues,
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Nov 29, 2004, 7:21 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Nov 29, 2004, 7:22 PM
Post #13 of 79 (2477 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't see these on the XAOS which, I believe, came out after they had this technology......

Actually not. The Xaos is admittedly a FX/VX refinement, and the traits these winglets produce are not ones desired in the Xaos line.


pilotdave  (D License)

Nov 29, 2004, 7:48 PM
Post #14 of 79 (2467 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I take it that is just your opinion? The engineers designing high speed airplane wings and NASA think they might serve a purpose.

Are you suggesting that they do the same thing as winglets? I've posted about my thoughts on em a couple times so I won't bother again, but I don't believe for one second that they do the same thing that winglets do on airplanes.

Dave


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Nov 29, 2004, 8:22 PM
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Re: [pilotdave] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

 The ones that aircraft design engineers put on aircraft are completly different in placement, shape and size. Even the models on the advanced paraglider have a much different frontal shape and overall length. Dr Whitcomb would drag you and the canopy featuring nipples to the wind tunnel ( the horizontal kind ), smoke in hand, if you suggested to him that those do what his winglets do on the subject of vortices.

Honestly line over keepers sounds about right. I've heard that the canopy is a fine example hi-performance modern design. Those nipples are nothing a patch couldn't fix to make it a fantastic canopy.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 29, 2004, 8:24 PM
Post #16 of 79 (2436 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
The engineers designing high speed airplane wings and NASA think they might serve a purpose.

Canopies don't go that fast yet, do you really think that at the speeds reached even on a full speed approach at a higher then normal wingloading (3.0-ish:1) that it would make a difference?

I don't doubt they make a difference in aircraft applications, I really think that all they do for current design canopies is increase drag.

They are not for effect at high speed, they effect control of a high speed wing, ie high performance canopy, when it is flown at slow speeds.

But not being "KNOWLEDGEABLE" what do I know.


UDSkyJunkie  (D 25746)

Nov 29, 2004, 8:37 PM
Post #17 of 79 (2428 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Are you suggesting that they do the same thing as winglets?

That is, in fact, exactly what the manufacturer claims... that they reduce wingtip vortices, thereby reducing drag, increasing lift, and allowing for better overall performance. Does it work? I haven't a fricking clue, and I have NEVER met anyone who does. Everyone knows that the canopies that have these things on them are pretty high-performance, but whether it has anything to do with the winglets, well... who knows? I tend to lean toward it being a gimmick, and believe that time will tell... if it's useless, it'll go away in time, or at least not be pursued by other manufacturers.

To play devil's advocate for a second, though... the stabalizers on your canopy are designed for the same purpose: to act essentially as winglets. And they did their job so well that they are now prettymuch mandatory.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 29, 2004, 8:40 PM
Post #18 of 79 (2425 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I take it that is just your opinion? The engineers designing high speed airplane wings and NASA think they might serve a purpose.

Are you suggesting that they do the same thing as winglets? I've posted about my thoughts on em a couple times so I won't bother again, but I don't believe for one second that they do the same thing that winglets do on airplanes.

Dave

I am not suggesting anything more then one persons opinion does not make it fact. Nor did I mention anything about winglets. Have you considered that they might have a similar effect of a stall fence like those found on a Roberson STOL conversion? This mod. has a proven positive effect on slow flight performance.


diablopilot  (D License)

Nov 29, 2004, 8:59 PM
Post #19 of 79 (2412 views)
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Re: [VectorBoy] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Honestly line over keepers sounds about right. I've heard that the canopy is a fine example hi-performance modern design. Those nipples are nothing a patch couldn't fix to make it a fantastic canopy.

Really, and you know this how? How many jumps have you put on a canopy with that in it's design?

The results are shown in comparitive slow flight modes.

So being that you're so knowlageable in things aerodynamic, how much effect you you think those "Front Deflectors" on your S3 have?


diablopilot  (D License)

Nov 29, 2004, 9:04 PM
Post #20 of 79 (2407 views)
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Re: [UDSkyJunkie] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
the stabalizers on your canopy are designed for the same purpose: to act essentially as winglets. And they did their job so well that they are now prettymuch mandatory.

Stabalizers are on their way out for high performance canopies, and the effects they were orginaly created to combat are not present to the same degree.

The Stabalizer and the Winglet may share some of the same duties, but do not act in the same mannor.

This entire thread has a tint of humor to it, as many in it have no experience with the product, nor with a variety canopies in general with which to make a statement.

Of course the above is just MY opinion, and like assholes, not only do I have one, I might have even been called one a time or two.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Nov 29, 2004, 9:33 PM
Post #21 of 79 (2389 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


So being that you're so knowlageable in things aerodynamic, how much effect you you think those "Front Deflectors" on your S3 have?
You mean the ones that are not on the Pheonix V-1. I wouldn't think, I would demonstrate in a wind tunnel. Or due to the expense of a wind tunnel I would let you strap me in my S3 to the roof of your car as you go speeding down the highway while Rob smokes the wing hanging out from one rear passenger window while Larry videos these tests hanging out the opposite passenger window. About six hours of testing ( without drinking )on video should do it.

Or, as an option in flight "tuff" testing with again Larry videoing the tests. Less than six hours of tests required here. Drinking later.

Or I could just rip one side off leave the other on jump and see.

BTW are you confused between the differences of Bird-man front deflectors AKA vortex generators which create little vorteses on purpose and wingtip winglets designed to retard the propagation of the big vortex comming around the wing until that wing is long gone forward? Me thinks so!

There are a lot of devices that trip air or energize air flow or create vortexes. Speed strips, vortilons, vortex generators. They work on a myriad of designs in as many capacities. Whether it is to reduce the stall speed and create more lift on a STOL mod. Or reduce drag on a speed mod or to create a controlled stall earlier on one part of a wing with no wash-out. Sometimes they just keep airflowing the correct way through an oil cooler inlet duct.
None of them - none of them have anything to do with winglets. Which does that one thing. Oh and they look cool on Lears.

Or in this case just create drag and hold the line over till you are good and pissed.


skydiverton  (D 123456789)

Nov 29, 2004, 11:22 PM
Post #22 of 79 (2352 views)
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Re: [hooligan] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i like to call them line-over keepers

Just adding a hookknife to these items will solve your line-over automativ


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 30, 2004, 6:21 AM
Post #23 of 79 (2238 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
What HIPER says is:
---------------------------------
Winglets The Winglets, which are attached to the upper surface of the canopy, add stability in several
ways. Inspired by airplanes and paragliders, we transferred this technology to our canopies. Due to
improved airflow, the touchdown (or stall) speed of the canopy is slowed considerably. Winglets provide for
better recovery from steep carving turns, and improve directional control during cross-wind landings. They
also help to prevent the diving effect of line twists that is often associated with eliptical canopies.
-----------------------------------

Now, IMO, they are wing fences, not winglets in the conventional sense as defined by aero engineers. They may provide some control of undesirable spanwise flow at high AOA.


pilotdave  (D License)

Nov 30, 2004, 7:15 AM
Post #24 of 79 (2203 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Have you considered that they might have a similar effect of a stall fence like those found on a Roberson STOL conversion?

Actually that's exactly what I suggested in the last thread on this topic. Here's exactly what I said last time.

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Nov 30, 2004, 7:18 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 30, 2004, 7:58 AM
Post #25 of 79 (2172 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] What are these? Canopy Warts? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds to me like HiPer's "winglets" are designed to cut spanwise flow of turbulent air at low airspeeds, similar to fences on Robertson STOL kits installed on some Cessnas.


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