Forums: Archive: 2005-2006 USPA BOD Elections:
What are your stands on the Skyride issue?

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

BillyVance  (D 18895)

Nov 22, 2004, 1:04 PM
Post #1 of 35 (3710 views)
Shortcut
What are your stands on the Skyride issue? Can't Post

This question is for all candidates for National and Regional Directors.

The Skyride operation being run by the same people who owns Atlanta Skydiving Center in Cedartown, GA; Alabama Skydiving Center in Pell City, AL and Skydive Pennridge near Philadelphia.

If something is not done to stop the way they are raping this sport, it is conceivable that they will own a DZ in most areas of the country, and the fictitious "National Skydiving Association" that they have quietly made up could actually be a reality.

What is your stand on this issue?

Blue Skies
Billy


(This post was edited by BillyVance on Nov 23, 2004, 2:48 PM)


FlyingJ  (A License)

Nov 22, 2004, 7:24 PM
Post #2 of 35 (3653 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BillyVance] What are your stands on this issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The Skyride operation being run by the same people who runs the DZs in Cedartown, GA...

Just to clarify, though I'm sure that most people concerned w/ this issue are aware, there are two dropzones in Cedartown, GA.

In addition to ASC (which is the DZ referenced in the comment above) there is also Skydive the Farm in Cedartown. The Farm has no relation to Skyride.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Nov 23, 2004, 6:10 AM
Post #3 of 35 (3615 views)
Shortcut
Re: [FlyingJ] What are your stands on this issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, thank you for the clarification, FlyingJ. I'll amend my original post...

Billy


chriswelker  (D 19678)

Nov 24, 2004, 4:48 AM
Post #4 of 35 (3546 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BillyVance] What are your stands on this issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Revoke any personal and Group USPA Memberships from the offenders.

Chris Welker
S&TA
Southern Region Candidate


feuergnom  (D License)

Nov 25, 2004, 9:58 AM
Post #5 of 35 (3482 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chriswelker] What are your stands on this issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

this is really going to hurt them, isn't it?


MakeItHappen

Nov 25, 2004, 10:51 PM
Post #6 of 35 (3455 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BillyVance] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This question is for all candidates for National and Regional Directors.

The Skyride operation being run by the same people who owns Atlanta Skydiving Center in Cedartown, GA; Alabama Skydiving Center in Pell City, AL and Skydive Pennridge near Philadelphia.

If something is not done to stop the way they are raping this sport, it is conceivable that they will own a DZ in most areas of the country, and the fictitious "National Skydiving Association" that they have quietly made up could actually be a reality.

What is your stand on this issue?

Hey Billy - I am pretty sure you know how I feel about SkyRide.

Just in case you have any doubts you may read a blurp on the SkyRide Scam and posts that I have made in regards to this issue.

I'm also in the same camp as Chris Welker in that I think these folks [Cary Quattrochi and Ben Butler] ought to have their individual USPA membership and Group Memberships rescinded. In my interpretation of the Governance Manual, they definitely 'bring public contempt' upon skydivers and USPA. Expelling these members from USPA may not change their behavior, but it will disassociate USPA with their practices.

For a myriad of reasons, their memberships would not be denied by the full BOD at this time. When the day comes, and that day is quickly approaching, I will definitely stand up and put forth a motion to expel them from USPA. I will not discuss the reasons not to expel these members because I do not have that view. You'll have to ask other BOD members on why they would not want to expel these members to find the answer as to why USPA will not expel these members now.

In the meantime, since you first reported what ASC was doing on r.s several years ago, I have compiled a few web pages that explain what they are doing and how they are doing it.

My short term mission is to educate DZOs about their practices, discourage DZOs from participating and educate the general skydiver population about their practices.
I believe I have accomplished these goals [via posts here and there] far better than any other USPA BOD member. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I still believe the fastest way and most prudent way to stop Skyride is to get all DZOs to NOT accept their gift certificates.

With all that said, my home DZ still accepts SkyRide gift certificates (to my knowledge). I will not boycott my home DZ because - well I like my home DZ. Besides if I boycott the DZ, how can I bitch about SkyRide? I think that if I come up to bat (by buying jumps), so to speak, I can have more influence than if I scurry away to another DZ. I will not bend the ears of up-jumpers about this issue [ unless they ask me] because - well they could care less. They just want to jump and do not care where the students come from.

I will continue to bend the ears of the DZO and other management people at my home DZ as well as other DZs.

I cannot say this often enough 'Do not do business with SkyRide'.

.


Levin  (D License)

Nov 26, 2004, 2:53 PM
Post #7 of 35 (3422 views)
Shortcut
Re: [MakeItHappen] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For a myriad of reasons, their memberships would not be denied by the full BOD at this time....You'll have to ask other BOD members on why they would not want to expel these members to find the answer as to why USPA will not expel these members now.

are there any BOD members that would care to elaborate on this?

Does anyone have a list of names of BODs that are pro-Skyride?


thecap  (A 43861)

Nov 28, 2004, 11:19 PM
Post #8 of 35 (3363 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Levin] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
For a myriad of reasons, their memberships would not be denied by the full BOD at this time....You'll have to ask other BOD members on why they would not want to expel these members to find the answer as to why USPA will not expel these members now.

are there any BOD members that would care to elaborate on this?

Does anyone have a list of names of BODs that are pro-Skyride?

Or a list of those willing to do something to oppose SkyRide:

Jan Meyer, Todd Spillers

Thank you Jan (MakeItHappen) for gathering all the information at SkyRide Scam. I have overheard people at Archway talking about students showing up with certificates but didn't realize how slimy the SkyRide "business" is.

Right now your page is 18th in google's results for skyride. Google's report of links to the page shows no external links? Have you made efforts to increase it? Could you get dropzones that are opposed to SkyRide to create a link to your page from theirs? I'll be sure to create a link to it from my website and will ask my home dropzone if they can sneak in a link somewhere.


(This post was edited by thecap on Nov 29, 2004, 8:47 PM)


tspillers  (D 21601)

Nov 29, 2004, 4:57 AM
Post #9 of 35 (3355 views)
Shortcut
Re: [MakeItHappen] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Jan,

We have quit using skyride at our DZ. If elected, I am interested in seeing this issue dealt with.

Todd


MakeItHappen

Nov 29, 2004, 6:36 PM
Post #10 of 35 (3314 views)
Shortcut
Re: [thecap] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Right now your page is 18th in google's results for skyride. Google's report of links to the page shows no external links? Have you made efforts to increase it? Could you get dropzones that are opposed to SkyRide to create a link to your page from theirs? I'll be sure to create a link to it from my website and will ask my home dropzone if they can sneak in a link somewhere.

There is a link to SkyRide Scam on Skydive West Point If Jim Crouch, the USPA Director of Safety and Training, has a link to it on his site then that ought to be good enough for others.

Sid's 1800skyrider has a link to it.

I did submit the url directly to Google because it is an orphaned page even on my sites.

I'll tell you that most people won't link to it and why it is an orphan page on my site is because it is the 'dark side' of skydiving. We do not want to promote SkyRide and we don't want to come across to the general public as 'bad-mouthing' some other business. Whuffoes won't see the whole picture as skydivers do. Whuffoes may think that it's just one business bad-mouthing another competitor. The summaries that I put together are targeted towards DZOS and jumpers, not whuffoes.

Reread the Oct Capital Commentary and ask why SkyRide was not mentioned by name? Years from now, people will wonder what that article was about, but they will understand there was sub-text there. I have thanked Chris Needels for writing that because it was a BIG step in getting out the word on what SkyRide is doing. I had been asking for a generalized blurp in the DZO NL for more than a year, but the CC was better because every (uspa) jumper may actually read it.

The fastest and easiest way to stop the SkyRide deception is to put pressure on DZOs that accept their certificates.
Lawsuits, Feds, and/or getting SkyRide to play by the copyright and fair-play rules are long shots and will take a long time.

Pinch off the stream at it's narrowest point.

Peer pressure is a very powerful force. If every jumper wrote a DZO that accepted SkyRide gift certificates and explained their point of view in their words, then you'd see a lot of current SkyRide DZOs drop out of SkyRide.

I'll repeat myself:

The fastest and easiest way to stop the SkyRide deception is to put pressure on DZOs that accept their certificates.

.


chriswelker  (D 19678)

Nov 30, 2004, 2:47 PM
Post #11 of 35 (3257 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tspillers] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

We have quit using skyride at our DZ. If elected, I am interested in seeing this issue dealt with.
Quote:


Two questions. What were your motivations when you decided to accept Skyride certificates?

How specifically would you like to see the Skyride issue dealt with?

Chris Welker


tspillers  (D 21601)

Nov 30, 2004, 5:42 PM
Post #12 of 35 (3244 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chriswelker] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Motivation to start. Our competitors were using them and getting some business that was closer to us. I also didn't know much about it. Seemed simple enough.

Not sure what all can be done. I don't think they represent practices that should be used by USPA GM DZ's. Other than that, I am not sure what can be done other than DZ's guit using their "service".

You have some ideas? Hopefully, we can discuss it in Jacksonville.


chriswelker  (D 19678)

Dec 1, 2004, 5:19 AM
Post #13 of 35 (3220 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tspillers] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Motivation to start. Our competitors were using them and getting some business that was closer to us. I also didn't know much about it. Seemed simple enough.
Quote:

Is it your regular practice to make business decisions without knowing much about anything?


Quote:
Not sure what all can be done. I don't think they represent practices that should be used by USPA GM DZ's. Other than that, I am not sure what can be done other than DZ's guit using their "service".

Would you be in favor of rescinding Ben and Carry's personnel and Group DZ memberships?

Chris Welker


tspillers  (D 21601)

Dec 1, 2004, 5:28 AM
Post #14 of 35 (3211 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chriswelker] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

At the time, I couldn't see any negatives. After over a year of using the service, I have learned more about their practice and understand it isn't exactly as explained.

I don't see how their personal memberships could even be considered. They are not violating BSR's (or if they are, that is a different issue). It is their busines practices that is in question and that is the GM side of USPA. Many have said there should be an outside organization take over the GM portion. I think the idea is ok, but I don't know if DZ's will pay the needed money to try to properly run another organization that is only focusing on thier interests.

Todd


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 1, 2004, 5:41 AM
Post #15 of 35 (3211 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tspillers] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Many have said there should be an outside organization take over the GM portion. I think the idea is ok, but I don't know if DZ's will pay the needed money to try to properly run another organization that is only focusing on thier interests.

If they don't have a choice, they will. Between the lines of your statement is DZO's are not paying for the GM program, USPA members are. That isn't right. USPA should terminate the GM program and let DZO's form their own organization and pay for it themselves. That will remove the inherent conflict of interest within USPA between DZO's and fun jumpers. When USPA is forced to make a decesion where they must decide either for the member or the DZO, the member loses every time.

Why does USP continue to allow ASC to be a GM DZ, list ASC on their web page and continue to accept GM dues from ASC? From the CC, USPA realizes that their business practices are un-ethical, yet they do nothing. I wonder why Mike's 'Code of Ethics' was voted against by the BOD?

Derek


tspillers  (D 21601)

Dec 1, 2004, 9:11 AM
Post #16 of 35 (3185 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Hooknswoop] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

On the DZ organization: USPA can't just abandon the GM program without something in place. Insurance companies want a GM Certificate to insure their planes. Insurance is required by most non private aiprorts. If DZ's can't stay in business, is that good for jumpers? It needs to change, but it will take time. I remember last PIA Symposium being approached by some DZO's that ironically enough feel that USPA doesn't represent the DZ's. They were interested in starting an organization. I haven't heard anything else abou it, but hope to speak with them at this Symposium.

As far as Skyride goes, my understanding is that USPA has consulted with legal counsel about what they can do. I expect that to be a topic at the next board meeting.

I would also like to look into the ability to have 1 or 2 extra meetings possible online between the regular meetings. There may be some bylaws that prevent this. That would mean another proxy vote that hasn't worked so far. I think the proxies need to be very specific. Here is the proxy issue, here is what I want my representative to vote for (or against).

Anyway, as we have discussed before, I agree with your comment about who USPA should represent, but it isn't black and white yet. We have to take steps in that direction to make it happen, in my opinion.

Todd


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 1, 2004, 9:25 AM
Post #17 of 35 (3178 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tspillers] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
On the DZ organization: USPA can't just abandon the GM program without something in place. Insurance companies want a GM Certificate to insure their planes. Insurance is required by most non private aiprorts. If DZ's can't stay in business, is that good for jumpers?

If USPA gives notice the GM program will be terminated in x-amount of time, then that would give the DZO's enough time to create their own organization and quit leeching off of USPA.

Quote:
It needs to change, but it will take time. I remember last PIA Symposium being approached by some DZO's that ironically enough feel that USPA doesn't represent the DZ's. They were interested in starting an organization. I haven't heard anything else abou it, but hope to speak with them at this Symposium.

Were these smaller-DZ's, DZO's?

Quote:
As far as Skyride goes, my understanding is that USPA has consulted with legal counsel about what they can do. I expect that to be a topic at the next board meeting.

If the code of ethics had passed, they could have already done something. USPA is failing jumpers as the Skyride issue demonstrates.

Quote:
Anyway, as we have discussed before, I agree with your comment about who USPA should represent, but it isn't black and white yet. We have to take steps in that direction to make it happen, in my opinion.

USPA is broken in many ways, the GM program is only one of them.

Derek


tspillers  (D 21601)

Dec 1, 2004, 11:45 AM
Post #18 of 35 (3160 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Hooknswoop] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If USPA gives notice the GM program will be terminated in x-amount of time, then that would give the DZO's enough time to create their own organization and quit leeching off of USPA.

The problem with that is the insurance companies would have to be on board and they probably won't. There would probably need to be a transition where both the GM program and the new organization were overlapping until the new organization proved itself so to speak to insurance companies. Another downside is that then USPA looses what little leverage it has to encourage DZ's to follow the rules.


There were larger DZ's for sure. There may have been one or 2 people that were from a smaller DZ.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 1, 2004, 12:11 PM
Post #19 of 35 (3157 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tspillers] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Another downside is that then USPA looses what little leverage it has to encourage DZ's to follow the rules.

But they aren't using that leverage to enforce the BSR's as it is.

Derek


tspillers  (D 21601)

Dec 1, 2004, 1:01 PM
Post #20 of 35 (3150 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Hooknswoop] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

True. So the real question becomes, is it better to enforce what we have or go another route. I agree there needs to be a change, but we need to consider all options and explore the negatives to any ideas we have for change. The worst thing we could do is to make a change and it be worse off than what we had. Gotta play devil's advocate and make sure we are looking at things from all angles. That is a nice thing about this forum. Many different ideas and angles/viewpoints to draw from. Keep the ideas coming and keep voicing your opinions even if they aren't popular. There are those of us who are at least listening.

Todd


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 1, 2004, 1:12 PM
Post #21 of 35 (3147 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tspillers] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So the real question becomes, is it better to enforce what we have or go another route.

I agree, but USPA's track record isn't encouraging.

Derek


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Dec 1, 2004, 1:39 PM
Post #22 of 35 (3142 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Hooknswoop] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
So the real question becomes, is it better to enforce what we have or go another route.

I agree, but USPA's track record isn't encouraging.

Derek

Hence the reason for this thread. To find out which candidates will do the right thing so we can vote them in!


chriswelker  (D 19678)

Dec 1, 2004, 2:33 PM
Post #23 of 35 (3131 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tspillers] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see how their personal memberships could even be considered.
Quote:

Read the USPA Governance Manual( specifically section 1.6-4, B. #4 & #5) and get back to us, Todd. You are a USPA member 1st and a Group Member 2nd.


Quote:
I don't know if DZ's will pay the needed money to try to properly run another organization that is only focusing on thier interests.

How about the PIA?

Chris Welker


(This post was edited by chriswelker on Dec 1, 2004, 2:42 PM)


tspillers  (D 21601)

Dec 1, 2004, 5:31 PM
Post #24 of 35 (3109 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chriswelker] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

#4. Engages in any conduct as a skydiver ....likely to bring public contept upon himself, herself, or upon USPA

I don't see this. They are in business (could be a good arguement) , but more importantly, does this mean if a group of skydivers go to a restaurant and get kicked out they should have memberships revoked?

#5. Engages in any conduct which reasonably jeopardizes the well-being of USPA.

Might have something there, but a heavy argument.

However,

#6. Willfully falsifies any document, certificate, or record connected with or relating to skydiving.

I think we got something here. We just need the people that had their pictures and websites taken to document it for the board.


Their RD needs to start the ball rolling.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Dec 1, 2004, 6:34 PM
Post #25 of 35 (3098 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tspillers] What are your stands on the Skyride issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Their RD needs to start the ball rolling.

I contacted their regional director. Wanna hear what he had to say?

This is taken from an email string with names taken out for now...

>Hi XX,
>
>
>
>Can you tell me anything about this. I have no idea what it is all
>about
and have been asked to look into it.
>
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>
>Blue Skies and be safe,
>XXXXXXX


Asked someone if they knew anything about stealing of their DZ's student manuals and other Skyride practices then just droped it. Unimpressed


First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Archive : 2005-2006 USPA BOD Elections

 


Search for (options)