Nov 7, 2004, 6:02 AM
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DZ policy, exit order
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I'm curious to know, At the DZ you jump do they have a policy in the exit order IE:- Freeflyers first or Relative first I'm not including Tandems as this is often dictated by the aircraft the DZ is using and obiously wingsuit an surfers last
If they do have a policy do you know why?
edited to change subject
(This post was edited by Zep on Nov 7, 2004, 6:04 AM)
Ours is belly groups first, freefly groups next, then solos then tandems. Skysurfers get out when the plane is over the DZ and clear of any houses, tandems are usually out last. birdmen get out before the tandems I think. . .though I am a belly flyer and NEVER leave late enough to know the answer to that one.
belly fliers largest group to smallest group, freeflyers largest group to smallest group, AFFs, Tandems. we (so far) havent had any birdmen or skysurfers on loads that i have been on....
Birdmen should go last unless your cross country is more than 6+ miles and not either a downwind or crosswind run. We recently proved in Eloy that even the smallest of suits can easily make it back 6 miles from the DZ on a constant basis when flown properly.
Kallend has explained what the policy should be and why. That's what we use.
Ok Mr bigway you seem obsessed with Mr Kellend If my name was Einstien an I told you the world was going to end 1/1/05 would you take it as gospel It may surprise you to know that there are some DZ’s that do not adopt this policy For reasons Geographical or metrological the DZ I use 90% of the time, Experienced freeflyers go out first. Now Mr Kellend and all his Physics tells us that this is wrong. I have no argument with Mr Kelland but If he could explain how a common or garden Bumble Bee can fly I would be more inclined to follow his theory. Physics isn’t everything At the Dz I mainly use On exit I use a combination of experience and judgement I have never had a problem with invading space of flat flyers, The only problems I’ve had is with the professional freeflyers who with their students insist on being the first out In part I understand as some times they are doing back-to-back an want to get down first. At the DZ’s I use that FF leave first, When I flare out at 5000ft I always barrel Roll and asses the situation ( I learnt along time ago not to trust a wave off) Also a student FF will very often when something goes wrong go flat instead of going into The ball position, so a barrel roll or a few seconds tracking on your back is to me important. Now the DZ I mainly use has a strict policy that FF must turn 90º right or left to flight line Oh an the other thing is that at this DZ if you have not had your FF card stamped you cannot do more than a two way, when I say card stamped I mean that you have proved to an instructor that you are capable of FF. Witch personally I think is the way to go
So the original question was, Which policy does your DZ adopt And do you know why regardless of what Mr Kellend says
Kallend has explained what the policy should be and why. That's what we use.
Ok Mr bigway you seem obsessed with Mr Kellend If my name was Einstien an I told you the world was going to end 1/1/05 would you take it as gospel It may surprise you to know that there are some DZ’s that do not adopt this policy For reasons Geographical or metrological the DZ I use 90% of the time, Experienced freeflyers go out first. Now Mr Kellend and all his Physics tells us that this is wrong. I have no argument with Mr Kelland but If he could explain how a common or garden Bumble Bee can fly I would be more inclined to follow his theory. Physics isn’t everything At the Dz I mainly use On exit I use a combination of experience and judgement I have never had a problem with invading space of flat flyers, The only problems I’ve had is with the professional freeflyers who with their students insist on being the first out In part I understand as some times they are doing back-to-back an want to get down first. At the DZ’s I use that FF leave first, When I flare out at 5000ft I always barrel Roll and asses the situation ( I learnt along time ago not to trust a wave off) Also a student FF will very often when something goes wrong go flat instead of going into The ball position, so a barrel roll or a few seconds tracking on your back is to me important. Now the DZ I mainly use has a strict policy that FF must turn 90º right or left to flight line Oh an the other thing is that at this DZ if you have not had your FF card stamped you cannot do more than a two way, when I say card stamped I mean that you have proved to an instructor that you are capable of FF. Witch personally I think is the way to go
So the original question was, Which policy does your DZ adopt And do you know why regardless of what Mr Kellend says
My name is Kallend, not Kellend, and from what you write it is pretty obvious that you have not read what I wrote on this topic.
And physics can explain the flight of bumble bees very well. Any claim to the contrary is simply ignorant.
most of the dz's i have jumped use the large group belly then large group freeflyer etc
just yesterday i had a discussion about exit orders and how they change when the uppers are really high, if pilots always have to drop against the wind or what it would be like if they dropped jumpers on a crosswind approach etc
if you are allergic on the name kallend (thats how it's spelled) try the article by skratch garrison, he posts here under the name skr (if i remember correctely). quite interesting stuff
edit to add: while i was typing kallend showed up -----› hence the double post
(This post was edited by feuergnom on Nov 7, 2004, 3:43 PM)
Kallend has explained what the policy should be and why. That's what we use.
Ok Mr bigway you seem obsessed with Mr Kellend
That's DOCTOR or PROFESSOR Kallend. With an "a."
In reply to:
If my name was Einstien an I told you the world was going to end 1/1/05 would you take it as gospel
It doesn't follow. If you do a brief search you will find a variety of sources, all of them quite legitiamate, whose analyses come to the same conclusions.
John Kallend's presentation is among the best. if not THE best.
Do your homework and get back to me.
In reply to:
It may surprise you to know that there are some DZ’s that do not adopt this policy
Actually, it is anything but surprising.
In reply to:
For reasons Geographical or metrological the DZ I use 90% of the time, Experienced freeflyers go out first. Now Mr Kellend and all his Physics tells us that this is wrong. I have no argument with Mr Kelland but If he could explain how a common or garden Bumble Bee can fly I would be more inclined to follow his theory.
With all due respect, that standpoint is entirely irrelevant. The principles put forth by any of us are about as cut and dried as whether an anvil, when released, will go up or down.
In reply to:
Physics isn’t everything
Nobody with a clue would describe Physics as "everything," but the disciplne does detail some inescapable realities. Ignore these physical realities at your peril.
In reply to:
At the Dz I mainly use On exit I use a combination of experience and judgement I have never had a problem with invading space of flat flyers, The only problems I’ve had is with the professional freeflyers who with their students insist on being the first out In part I understand as some times they are doing back-to-back an want to get down first. At the DZ’s I use that FF leave first, When I flare out at 5000ft I always barrel Roll and asses the situation ( I learnt along time ago not to trust a wave off) Also a student FF will very often when something goes wrong go flat instead of going into The ball position, so a barrel roll or a few seconds tracking on your back is to me important. Now the DZ I mainly use has a strict policy that FF must turn 90º right or left to flight line Oh an the other thing is that at this DZ if you have not had your FF card stamped you cannot do more than a two way, when I say card stamped I mean that you have proved to an instructor that you are capable of FF. Witch personally I think is the way to go
So the original question was, Which policy does your DZ adopt And do you know why regardless of what Mr Kellend says
The answer is: the policy which optimizes horizontal separation between groups in all regimes of the skydive.
And yes, I know why, and Dr. Kallend and I are in complete agreement.
Blue skies,
Winsor
(This post was edited by winsor on Nov 7, 2004, 3:54 PM)
I apologise for the error in spelling your name It was not intentional. When I went to school we were told that the Bumble Bee was an anomoly and that the size of it's wings should not sopport the weight of it's body mind you that was over 35 years ago. I seem to remember some years ago you saying some thing like "The exit order dosent matter as long as you give enough time" I can't quote you as I can't find the thread. Now I prefere to exit before flat flyers because, 1,I turn 90º after exit an generaly stay on heading 2, because I know I go down fast 3,Because after 18 years at this DZ I know the wind conditions (uppers an lowers) 4, Because at this DZ the run in is always South to North (more or less) reguardless of upper wind dirrection (explination, we have the sea behind us A town directly below us mountains to the right of us, A main road in front or us and buildings to the right of us, AAD's are compusory" So Mr kallend I do not dought your equations, so in a perfect world your equations would be pefect but alas we do not live in a perfect world
Note. I am not trying to belittle or contradict Mr Kallend, but some DZ's do put FF out first.
Nov 7, 2004, 5:39 PM
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Re: [sundevil777] DZ policy, exit order
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I seem to remember some years ago you saying some thing like "The exit order dosent matter as long as you give enough time"
Of course that is right. Most choose to use an exit order policy that does not require the extra long delays to be safe.
The DZ's in this tread use GPS and at the cut off point always go round again, This point I will stress as we do exit in cloud and we cannot always see the ground also I trust the pilots 99%of the time
So the question still stands
PhreeZone (D License)
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Nov 7, 2004, 6:03 PM
Post #17 of 50
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>The DZ's in this tread use GPS and at the cut off point always go > round again, This point I will stress as we do exit in cloud >and we cannot always see the ground also I trust the pilots 99% >of the time
In the 1970's a group of US jumpers trusted the pilot and ended up with an ATC-assisted spot over Lake Erie. Most of them died. Exiting when you can't see the ground, other traffic or other groups is a bad idea.
>So the question still stands
You can use any exit order you wish IF you leave enough time between groups. In some cases, that amount of time may be 45 seconds in normal conditions; this leads to many go-arounds. If your DZ is willing to put up a load and do six go-arounds, then no problem. In most cases, DZO's prefer to not spend the extra money on fuel when a smarter exit order can result in safe separation with 5-10 second delays between exits.
>The DZ's in this tread use GPS and at the cut off point always go > round again, This point I will stress as we do exit in cloud >and we cannot always see the ground also I trust the pilots 99% >of the time
In the 1970's a group of US jumpers trusted the pilot and ended up with an ATC-assisted spot over Lake Erie. Most of them died. Exiting when you can't see the ground, other traffic or other groups is a bad idea.
>So the question still stands
You can use any exit order you wish IF you leave enough time between groups. In some cases, that amount of time may be 45 seconds in normal conditions; this leads to many go-arounds. If your DZ is willing to put up a load and do six go-arounds, then no problem. In most cases, DZO's prefer to not spend the extra money on fuel when a smarter exit order can result in safe separation with 5-10 second delays between exits.
At this DZ we do have faith in the drivers we do not suffer to much from bandit aircraft. In the days of VOR no ground, No drop The dz has lost jumpers to the sea but only once in 20yrs due to circumstances beyond thier control I prefere to jump th Porter an if FF exit before flat flyers as do 99% of the other jumpers. When jumping the Twotter I will hang back on boarding an leave after the professional FF After 5 years of FF I'm not going to change my habbits
Addressing the question asked that started this thread, my DZ does Skysurfers, Big-way belly, small-way belly, freefly, tandem. However, this is when the plane is flying INTO the uppers, When the plane is flying WITH the uppers, Freefly out first, then belly, then surf, then tandem. For some reason the uppers in San Diego like to reverse themselves during the fall months, but otherwise, its the former of the two exit orders. Why? DZO says its because FF tend to sink straight and fall faster and bellys slower and tend to drift. Sounds to me... as long as we don't get rushed on exit, I've never had a close call (100-jump-wonder mind you).
(This post was edited by Ruffles on Nov 7, 2004, 8:17 PM)
I apologise for the error in spelling your name It was not intentional. When I went to school we were told that the Bumble Bee was an anomoly and that the size of it's wings should not sopport the weight of it's body mind you that was over 35 years ago.
Post edited. The gist of John's reply was that 35 years ago, they made a mistake about the bumblebee.
(This post was edited by billvon on Nov 8, 2004, 9:39 AM)
I thought Empuria operated a big to small policy for exits, regardless of discipline (note they also put tandems out first).
I have seen FFs there insist on going first, no matter who or what else is on the plane (except tandems) for no other reason than they want to get down quick and don't want to be spotted off the north of the DZ (which can be a wet landing area). When I have seen it I have found it very annoying, not least 'cos it can ruin the most efficient exit, bum spotting the last out and is very selfish (and no matter what you say, getting a go around at Empuria is easier said than done).
One good reason for big to small is that you can spot the first group slightly short, knowing that by the time they are set up in the door they are in the correct place. If it's a solo you lose that climb out time.
Exit order for my dropzone (generally): 1st Large to small belly groups 2nd large to small freefly groups 3rd solo freefly 4th extra seperation time then solo belly fliers who are warned to pull a little higher (they may have a long spot) 5th AFF 6th Tandems 7th wingsuits 8th the pilot if something goes wrong CRW can take their pick, Generally either 1st or last( but before the pilot).
There may be exceptions to this exit order. Prof Kallend also explains situations where you may want to change things.
Why do we do this? Because we have studied Kallend's stuff. It's the easiest way to achieve the seperation needed and to get everyone out in one drop run. It does not matter how much experience someone has, the physics remain the same.
(This post was edited by speedy on Nov 8, 2004, 6:03 AM)
>The DZ's in this tread use GPS and at the cut off point always go > round again, This point I will stress as we do exit in cloud >and we cannot always see the ground also I trust the pilots 99% >of the time
In the 1970's a group of US jumpers trusted the pilot and ended up with an ATC-assisted spot over Lake Erie. Most of them died. Exiting when you can't see the ground, other traffic or other groups is a bad idea.
>So the question still stands
You can use any exit order you wish IF you leave enough time between groups. In some cases, that amount of time may be 45 seconds in normal conditions; this leads to many go-arounds. If your DZ is willing to put up a load and do six go-arounds, then no problem. In most cases, DZO's prefer to not spend the extra money on fuel when a smarter exit order can result in safe separation with 5-10 second delays between exits.
At this DZ we do have faith in the drivers we do not suffer to much from bandit aircraft. In the days of VOR no ground, No drop The dz has lost jumpers to the sea but only once in 20yrs due to circumstances beyond thier control I prefere to jump th Porter an if FF exit before flat flyers as do 99% of the other jumpers. When jumping the Twotter I will hang back on boarding an leave after the professional FF After 5 years of FF I'm not going to change my habbits
Assuming jump run into the wind:
If fast falling skydivers (head down, etc) exit first, followed by slow fallers, then the groups are on converging paths. Making an small error in exit timing can make those paths intersect, which is bad.
If slow fallers exit first, followed by fast fallers, then their paths diverge, which is basically immune to errors in exit timing.
Prudent DZs operate in ways that minimize the effects of errors.
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