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DZ policy, exit order

 

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Zep  (D 9022)

Nov 7, 2004, 6:02 AM
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DZ policy, exit order Can't Post

 
I'm curious to know, At the DZ you jump
do they have a policy in the exit order
IE:- Freeflyers first or Relative first
I'm not including Tandems as this is often dictated by the aircraft the DZ is using
and obiously wingsuit an surfers last

If they do have a policy do you know why?


edited to change subject


(This post was edited by Zep on Nov 7, 2004, 6:04 AM)


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Nov 7, 2004, 6:11 AM
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

Cause John Kallend has quantifed the reason and it keeps folks alive.


Zep  (D 9022)

Nov 7, 2004, 6:49 AM
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Re: [BIGUN] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I didn't ask what John Kelland had to say about it
I asked which policy your DZ uses


airdweller  (D 31348)

Nov 7, 2004, 6:56 AM
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

Generally it goes

tandems at 10,500
then to altitude

belly first
Sit flyers next
head down next
jumpers opening up high
wingsuits next
cross country last


skyyhi  (B 26847)

Nov 7, 2004, 7:39 AM
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

Ours is belly groups first, freefly groups next, then solos then tandems. Skysurfers get out when the plane is over the DZ and clear of any houses, tandems are usually out last. birdmen get out before the tandems I think. . .though I am a belly flyer and NEVER leave late enough to know the answer to that one.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Nov 7, 2004, 8:21 AM
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Re: [skyyhi] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

belly fliers largest group to smallest group, freeflyers largest group to smallest group, AFFs, Tandems. we (so far) havent had any birdmen or skysurfers on loads that i have been on....


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Nov 7, 2004, 8:27 AM
Post #7 of 50 (2614 views)
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

You asked...
Quote:
If they do have a policy do you know why?

Kallend has explained what the policy should be and why. That's what we use.


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Nov 7, 2004, 8:29 AM)


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Nov 7, 2004, 12:42 PM
Post #8 of 50 (2552 views)
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Re: DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

Birdmen should go last unless your cross country is more than 6+ miles and not either a downwind or crosswind run. We recently proved in Eloy that even the smallest of suits can easily make it back 6 miles from the DZ on a constant basis when flown properly.


Zep  (D 9022)

Nov 7, 2004, 2:38 PM
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Re: [BIGUN] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You asked...
Quote:
If they do have a policy do you know why?

Kallend has explained what the policy should be and why. That's what we use.



Ok Mr bigway you seem obsessed with Mr Kellend If my
name was Einstien an I told you the world was going to end
1/1/05 would you take it as gospel
It may surprise you to know that there are some DZs that do not adopt this policy
For reasons Geographical or metrological the DZ I use 90% of the time, Experienced freeflyers go out first. Now Mr Kellend and all his Physics tells us that this is wrong.
I have no argument with Mr Kelland but If he could explain how a common or garden
Bumble Bee can fly I would be more inclined to follow his theory.
Physics isnt everything
At the Dz I mainly use On exit I use a combination of experience and judgement
I have never had a problem with invading space of flat flyers, The only problems Ive had is with the professional freeflyers who with their students insist on being the first out
In part I understand as some times they are doing back-to-back an want to get down first.
At the DZs I use that FF leave first, When I flare out at 5000ft I always barrel Roll and asses the situation ( I learnt along time ago not to trust a wave off)
Also a student FF will very often when something goes wrong go flat instead of going into
The ball position, so a barrel roll or a few seconds tracking on your back is to me important.
Now the DZ I mainly use has a strict policy that FF must turn 90 right or left to flight line
Oh an the other thing is that at this DZ if you have not had your FF card stamped you cannot do more than a two way, when I say card stamped I mean that you have proved to an instructor that you are capable of FF. Witch personally I think is the way to go


So the original question was, Which policy does your DZ adopt
And do you know why regardless of what Mr Kellend says


Jib  (C License)

Nov 7, 2004, 2:59 PM
Post #10 of 50 (2498 views)
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If they do have a policy do you know why?

The longer your fall (the slower fall rate), the futher back toward the dropzone (downwind) you are going to go.


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 7, 2004, 3:35 PM
Post #11 of 50 (2476 views)
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You asked...
Quote:
If they do have a policy do you know why?

Kallend has explained what the policy should be and why. That's what we use.



Ok Mr bigway you seem obsessed with Mr Kellend If my
name was Einstien an I told you the world was going to end
1/1/05 would you take it as gospel
It may surprise you to know that there are some DZs that do not adopt this policy
For reasons Geographical or metrological the DZ I use 90% of the time, Experienced freeflyers go out first. Now Mr Kellend and all his Physics tells us that this is wrong.
I have no argument with Mr Kelland but If he could explain how a common or garden
Bumble Bee can fly I would be more inclined to follow his theory.
Physics isnt everything
At the Dz I mainly use On exit I use a combination of experience and judgement
I have never had a problem with invading space of flat flyers, The only problems Ive had is with the professional freeflyers who with their students insist on being the first out
In part I understand as some times they are doing back-to-back an want to get down first.
At the DZs I use that FF leave first, When I flare out at 5000ft I always barrel Roll and asses the situation ( I learnt along time ago not to trust a wave off)
Also a student FF will very often when something goes wrong go flat instead of going into
The ball position, so a barrel roll or a few seconds tracking on your back is to me important.
Now the DZ I mainly use has a strict policy that FF must turn 90 right or left to flight line
Oh an the other thing is that at this DZ if you have not had your FF card stamped you cannot do more than a two way, when I say card stamped I mean that you have proved to an instructor that you are capable of FF. Witch personally I think is the way to go


So the original question was, Which policy does your DZ adopt
And do you know why regardless of what Mr Kellend says

My name is Kallend, not Kellend, and from what you write it is pretty obvious that you have not read what I wrote on this topic.

And physics can explain the flight of bumble bees very well. Any claim to the contrary is simply ignorant.


feuergnom  (D License)

Nov 7, 2004, 3:41 PM
Post #12 of 50 (2473 views)
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

hey dude - take a deep breath & relax ok? Smile

most of the dz's i have jumped use the large group belly then large group freeflyer etc

just yesterday i had a discussion about exit orders and how they change when the uppers are really high, if pilots always have to drop against the wind or what it would be like if they dropped jumpers on a crosswind approach etc



if you are allergic on the name kallend (thats how it's spelled) try the article by skratch garrison, he posts here under the name skr (if i remember correctely). quite interesting stuff



edit to add: while i was typing kallend showed up ----- hence the double post Cool


(This post was edited by feuergnom on Nov 7, 2004, 3:43 PM)


winsor  (D 13715)

Nov 7, 2004, 3:52 PM
Post #13 of 50 (2468 views)
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You asked...
Quote:
If they do have a policy do you know why?

Kallend has explained what the policy should be and why. That's what we use.



Ok Mr bigway you seem obsessed with Mr Kellend

That's DOCTOR or PROFESSOR Kallend. With an "a."

In reply to:
If my
name was Einstien an I told you the world was going to end
1/1/05 would you take it as gospel

It doesn't follow. If you do a brief search you will find a variety of sources, all of them quite legitiamate, whose analyses come to the same conclusions.

John Kallend's presentation is among the best. if not THE best.

Do your homework and get back to me.

In reply to:
It may surprise you to know that there are some DZs that do not adopt this policy

Actually, it is anything but surprising.

In reply to:
For reasons Geographical or metrological the DZ I use 90% of the time, Experienced freeflyers go out first. Now Mr Kellend and all his Physics tells us that this is wrong.
I have no argument with Mr Kelland but If he could explain how a common or garden
Bumble Bee can fly I would be more inclined to follow his theory.

With all due respect, that standpoint is entirely irrelevant. The principles put forth by any of us are about as cut and dried as whether an anvil, when released, will go up or down.

In reply to:
Physics isnt everything

Nobody with a clue would describe Physics as "everything," but the disciplne does detail some inescapable realities. Ignore these physical realities at your peril.

In reply to:
At the Dz I mainly use On exit I use a combination of experience and judgement
I have never had a problem with invading space of flat flyers, The only problems Ive had is with the professional freeflyers who with their students insist on being the first out
In part I understand as some times they are doing back-to-back an want to get down first.
At the DZs I use that FF leave first, When I flare out at 5000ft I always barrel Roll and asses the situation ( I learnt along time ago not to trust a wave off)
Also a student FF will very often when something goes wrong go flat instead of going into
The ball position, so a barrel roll or a few seconds tracking on your back is to me important.
Now the DZ I mainly use has a strict policy that FF must turn 90 right or left to flight line
Oh an the other thing is that at this DZ if you have not had your FF card stamped you cannot do more than a two way, when I say card stamped I mean that you have proved to an instructor that you are capable of FF. Witch personally I think is the way to go


So the original question was, Which policy does your DZ adopt
And do you know why regardless of what Mr Kellend says

The answer is: the policy which optimizes horizontal separation between groups in all regimes of the skydive.

And yes, I know why, and Dr. Kallend and I are in complete agreement.


Blue skies,

Winsor


(This post was edited by winsor on Nov 7, 2004, 3:54 PM)


Zep  (D 9022)

Nov 7, 2004, 5:05 PM
Post #14 of 50 (2438 views)
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Re: [kallend] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

Reply to Mr kallend.

I apologise for the error in spelling your name It was not intentional.
When I went to school we were told that the Bumble Bee was an anomoly
and that the size of it's wings should not sopport the weight of it's body
mind you that was over 35 years ago.
I seem to remember some years ago you saying some thing like "The exit order dosent matter as long as you give enough time"
I can't quote you as I can't find the thread.
Now I prefere to exit before flat flyers because, 1,I turn 90 after exit an generaly stay on heading 2, because I know I go down fast 3,Because after 18 years at this DZ I know the wind conditions (uppers an lowers)
4, Because at this DZ the run in is always South to North (more or less) reguardless of upper wind dirrection (explination, we have the sea behind us
A town directly below us mountains to the right of us, A main road in front or us and buildings to the right of us, AAD's are compusory"
So Mr kallend I do not dought your equations, so in a perfect world your equations would be pefect but alas we do not live in a perfect world

Note. I am not trying to belittle or contradict Mr Kallend, but some DZ's do put FF out first.

The question still stands "do you know why"


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 7, 2004, 5:15 PM
Post #15 of 50 (2431 views)
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I seem to remember some years ago you saying some thing like "The exit order dosent matter as long as you give enough time"

Of course that is right. Most choose to use an exit order policy that does not require the extra long delays to be safe.


Zep  (D 9022)

Nov 7, 2004, 5:39 PM
Post #16 of 50 (2416 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I seem to remember some years ago you saying some thing like "The exit order dosent matter as long as you give enough time"

Of course that is right. Most choose to use an exit order policy that does not require the extra long delays to be safe.

The DZ's in this tread use GPS and at the cut off point always go round again, This point I will stress as we do exit in cloud
and we cannot always see the ground also I trust the pilots 99%of the time


So the question still stands


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Nov 7, 2004, 6:03 PM
Post #17 of 50 (2403 views)
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

Zhill's used to be Freefliers out first for the longest time too, I heard they just switched to RW'ers first last year.


Zep  (D 9022)

Nov 7, 2004, 6:18 PM
Post #18 of 50 (2395 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Zhill's used to be Freefliers out first for the longest time too, I heard they just switched to RW'ers first last year.

Nothing to do with FF just an anecdote, Last time I jumped at Zhill's it snowed 89


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 7, 2004, 6:29 PM
Post #19 of 50 (2387 views)
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

>The DZ's in this tread use GPS and at the cut off point always go
> round again, This point I will stress as we do exit in cloud
>and we cannot always see the ground also I trust the pilots 99%
>of the time

In the 1970's a group of US jumpers trusted the pilot and ended up with an ATC-assisted spot over Lake Erie. Most of them died. Exiting when you can't see the ground, other traffic or other groups is a bad idea.

>So the question still stands

You can use any exit order you wish IF you leave enough time between groups. In some cases, that amount of time may be 45 seconds in normal conditions; this leads to many go-arounds. If your DZ is willing to put up a load and do six go-arounds, then no problem. In most cases, DZO's prefer to not spend the extra money on fuel when a smarter exit order can result in safe separation with 5-10 second delays between exits.


Zep  (D 9022)

Nov 7, 2004, 7:07 PM
Post #20 of 50 (2374 views)
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Re: [billvon] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>The DZ's in this tread use GPS and at the cut off point always go
> round again, This point I will stress as we do exit in cloud
>and we cannot always see the ground also I trust the pilots 99%
>of the time

In the 1970's a group of US jumpers trusted the pilot and ended up with an ATC-assisted spot over Lake Erie. Most of them died. Exiting when you can't see the ground, other traffic or other groups is a bad idea.

>So the question still stands

You can use any exit order you wish IF you leave enough time between groups. In some cases, that amount of time may be 45 seconds in normal conditions; this leads to many go-arounds. If your DZ is willing to put up a load and do six go-arounds, then no problem. In most cases, DZO's prefer to not spend the extra money on fuel when a smarter exit order can result in safe separation with 5-10 second delays between exits.


At this DZ we do have faith in the drivers we do not suffer to much from bandit aircraft. In the days of VOR no ground, No drop
The dz has lost jumpers to the sea but only once in 20yrs due to circumstances beyond thier control
I prefere to jump th Porter an if FF exit before flat flyers as do 99% of the other jumpers.
When jumping the Twotter I will hang back on boarding an leave after the professional FF
After 5 years of FF I'm not going to change my habbits


Ruffles  (A 42288)

Nov 7, 2004, 8:16 PM
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

Addressing the question asked that started this thread, my DZ does Skysurfers, Big-way belly, small-way belly, freefly, tandem.
However, this is when the plane is flying INTO the uppers, When the plane is flying WITH the uppers, Freefly out first, then belly, then surf, then tandem. For some reason the uppers in San Diego like to reverse themselves during the fall months, but otherwise, its the former of the two exit orders.
Why? DZO says its because FF tend to sink straight and fall faster and bellys slower and tend to drift.
Sounds to me... as long as we don't get rushed on exit, I've never had a close call (100-jump-wonder mind you).


(This post was edited by Ruffles on Nov 7, 2004, 8:17 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 7, 2004, 8:43 PM
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Reply to Mr kallend.

I apologise for the error in spelling your name It was not intentional.
When I went to school we were told that the Bumble Bee was an anomoly
and that the size of it's wings should not sopport the weight of it's body
mind you that was over 35 years ago.


Post edited. The gist of John's reply was that 35 years ago, they made a mistake about the bumblebee.


(This post was edited by billvon on Nov 8, 2004, 9:39 AM)


ps5601  (D 100131)

Nov 8, 2004, 5:05 AM
Post #23 of 50 (2294 views)
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought Empuria operated a big to small policy for exits, regardless of discipline (note they also put tandems out first).

I have seen FFs there insist on going first, no matter who or what else is on the plane (except tandems) for no other reason than they want to get down quick and don't want to be spotted off the north of the DZ (which can be a wet landing area). When I have seen it I have found it very annoying, not least 'cos it can ruin the most efficient exit, bum spotting the last out and is very selfish (and no matter what you say, getting a go around at Empuria is easier said than done).

One good reason for big to small is that you can spot the first group slightly short, knowing that by the time they are set up in the door they are in the correct place. If it's a solo you lose that climb out time.

Blue Skies


speedy

Nov 8, 2004, 6:02 AM
Post #24 of 50 (2269 views)
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

Exit order for my dropzone (generally):
1st Large to small belly groups
2nd large to small freefly groups
3rd solo freefly
4th extra seperation time then solo belly fliers who are warned to pull a little higher (they may have a long spot)
5th AFF
6th Tandems
7th wingsuits
8th the pilot if something goes wrong Unsure
CRW can take their pick, Generally either 1st or last( but before the pilot).

There may be exceptions to this exit order. Prof Kallend also explains situations where you may want to change things.

Why do we do this? Because we have studied Kallend's stuff. It's the easiest way to achieve the seperation needed and to get everyone out in one drop run. It does not matter how much experience someone has, the physics remain the same.


(This post was edited by speedy on Nov 8, 2004, 6:03 AM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 8, 2004, 9:44 AM
Post #25 of 50 (2223 views)
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Re: [Zep] DZ policy, exit order [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>The DZ's in this tread use GPS and at the cut off point always go
> round again, This point I will stress as we do exit in cloud
>and we cannot always see the ground also I trust the pilots 99%
>of the time

In the 1970's a group of US jumpers trusted the pilot and ended up with an ATC-assisted spot over Lake Erie. Most of them died. Exiting when you can't see the ground, other traffic or other groups is a bad idea.

>So the question still stands

You can use any exit order you wish IF you leave enough time between groups. In some cases, that amount of time may be 45 seconds in normal conditions; this leads to many go-arounds. If your DZ is willing to put up a load and do six go-arounds, then no problem. In most cases, DZO's prefer to not spend the extra money on fuel when a smarter exit order can result in safe separation with 5-10 second delays between exits.


At this DZ we do have faith in the drivers we do not suffer to much from bandit aircraft. In the days of VOR no ground, No drop
The dz has lost jumpers to the sea but only once in 20yrs due to circumstances beyond thier control
I prefere to jump th Porter an if FF exit before flat flyers as do 99% of the other jumpers.
When jumping the Twotter I will hang back on boarding an leave after the professional FF
After 5 years of FF I'm not going to change my habbits

Assuming jump run into the wind:

If fast falling skydivers (head down, etc) exit first, followed by slow fallers, then the groups are on converging paths. Making an small error in exit timing can make those paths intersect, which is bad.

If slow fallers exit first, followed by fast fallers, then their paths diverge, which is basically immune to errors in exit timing.

Prudent DZs operate in ways that minimize the effects of errors.


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