Forums: Archive: 2005-2006 USPA BOD Elections:
4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks.

 

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diverdriver  (D 19012)

Oct 31, 2004, 6:19 PM
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4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. Can't Post

What do YOU plan to do about it?


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Nov 8, 2004, 1:19 PM
Post #2 of 62 (3681 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

So no one wants to touch this issue? That's a disgrace.

YOU CAN'T GET TO ALTITUDE WITHOUT THE DAMN PLANE!! You had better pay attention to this issue.


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 8, 2004, 1:25 PM
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Re: [diverdriver] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So no one wants to touch this issue? That's a disgrace.

I can't think of anything that the USPA *could* do. The USPA really has no power over DZs except to suspend their GM.

Any real power would have to be from the FAA. Are you wanting to get the FAA more involved or get more involved to keep the FAA from taking steps to fix a problem?


What would you propose?


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Nov 8, 2004, 1:39 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

At this point I'd just like the USPA to recognize there is a problem. They won't. They think it's just "shit happens" when these accidents are SO preventable.

What happened to "self policing"? So USPA is powerless huh? Maybe we should enlist the FAA to more actively inspect DZ ops. This past weekend I was ramp checked by the FAA at SDC. The ASI was also overseeing the rigger's course there. I asked if he knew that there had been 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. He said he was very aware and that the FAA was trying to do more to make their presence felt. If the USPA would admit their is a problem they might have a chance at shaping the course of action to solve it and keep the FAA out of more encroachment. As yet, the USPA is silent except for short blurps in Parachutist like last year that say "this should serve as a wake up call to pay attention" (paraphrased). That led me to write a letter to Parachutist which was never used in "Letters". I posted it here on these forums.

You would think someone would have at least ONE comment in a week's time or even ask the question "what would you do" considering how many fatal crashes we've had this year. Nothing. Not a blip. Now, you could argue that candidates and incumbents are not campaigning anymore and are not reading here anymore. So I'm left with the feeling that they only pay attention to what the members have to say when it is convenient to them. (Getting elected). Over all, I don't think they really care.

Peer pressure is an awesome thing. We don't need FARs if we refuse to get in planes of DZs that can't hold it together. Money talks. But skydivers are so into the "home DZ" cult mindset they refuse to see the problems let alone make comments to put pressure on DZOs to fix things.


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 8, 2004, 2:02 PM
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Re: [diverdriver] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, start with the jumpers, the USPA is the jumpers (or should be) and if enough jumpers are pissed off, then the USPA will listen.

Quote:
Peer pressure is an awesome thing. We don't need FARs if we refuse to get in planes of DZs that can't hold it together

Well, that is done. There is a DZ in Texas that many many jumpers I know won't go to and jump, simply because of their plane. The plane is a serious accident that has gotten lucky more then a few times.Unsure


ladyskydiver

Nov 8, 2004, 2:18 PM
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Re: [diverdriver] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

Aren't there are supposed to be logs of maintenance done to planes, etc., how about the pilots refusing to fly jumpers if the planes are not maintained correctly?


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 8, 2004, 2:27 PM
Post #7 of 62 (3659 views)
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Re: [ladyskydiver] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
how about the pilots refusing to fly jumpers if the planes are not maintained correctly?

Outside of my DZ, I've seen pilots talked into flying unsafe planes and through clouds and such by the DZO. Unsure


jlmiracle  (D License)

Nov 8, 2004, 2:30 PM
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Re: [diverdriver] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

Chris - the USPA must be listening because they did post a short blurb on their website about all the crashes.

I don't know if its what you are looking for, but they are noticing.

Judy


ladyskydiver

Nov 8, 2004, 2:31 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

That totally sucks that a DZO would put someone's life in danger for a few $$$. However, the pilot did not have to do it. Yeah...they could lose their job, etc., but everyone has an option - jump or not jump, fly or not fly.


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Nov 8, 2004, 2:33 PM
Post #10 of 62 (3654 views)
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Re: [ladyskydiver] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Aren't there are supposed to be logs of maintenance done to planes, etc., how about the pilots refusing to fly jumpers if the planes are not maintained correctly?


Because there's a signature in a logbook doesn't mean it's being maintained correctly. I can only think of one accident recently that was outside of inspection/tbo. That means all these other planes had a signature that maitenance had been done to keep it legal. But keeping legal doesn't mean keeping safe.

How many planes have we seen run out of gas or have contaminated fuel lately? That doesn't have anything to do with signatures in a logbook. That has to do with poor pilot training and oversight. How could signatures prevent a pilot from taking off with the elevator trim left in the landing position causing a stall/crash on takeoff?

Jumpers think that jump plane crashes are caused because of maintenance. They are caused by pilots not following sound practices too.


ladyskydiver

Nov 8, 2004, 2:39 PM
Post #11 of 62 (3648 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

And unless I'm mistaken, the FAA is the regulating body for airplane pilots, correct? If so, the FAA is correct regulating body to deal with those kinds of issues.

You're a pilot. What are your suggestions for fixing the issues?


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Nov 8, 2004, 2:40 PM
Post #12 of 62 (3645 views)
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Re: [jlmiracle] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Chris - the USPA must be listening because they did post a short blurb on their website about all the crashes.

I don't know if its what you are looking for, but they are noticing.

Judy


A short blurb. They should have full blown articles in Parachutist and they should be sanctioning DZs when accidents happen in violation of FARs (running out of gas). A crash happens and the plane was over gross weight... they should sanction and black list. They don't do it because they don't want to lose membership dues. That's how I view things now. They could convince me otherwise but right now I don't see the effort necessary to really make a difference.

They put a small blurb in Parachutist last year as a "wake up call". I wrote back saying the alarm clock has been going of for years! Nothing but silence. It's lip service so they can say to the FAA "see, we're doing something." It's weak.


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Nov 8, 2004, 2:52 PM
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Re: [ladyskydiver] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And unless I'm mistaken, the FAA is the regulating body for airplane pilots, correct? If so, the FAA is correct regulating body to deal with those kinds of issues.

You're a pilot. What are your suggestions for fixing the issues?


Ok, here is what I want.

I want the FAA to come up with a mandatory sign-off for pilots to become "jump pilot" qualified. I want the FAA to mandate and enforce the commercial pilot license requirement on all jump planes. I want DZs to actually DO 100 hour maintenance on their planes. I want DZs that have crashes where their plane ran out of gas to lose their GM. I want mandatory yearly recurrent training for jump pilots after the sign off.

That's a bit of a start.


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 8, 2004, 2:57 PM
Post #14 of 62 (3638 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I want the FAA to come up with a mandatory sign-off for pilots to become "jump pilot" qualified.

You know that the insurance companies have some reasonably stiff requirements even for very experienced pilots, right?


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Nov 8, 2004, 3:06 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I want the FAA to come up with a mandatory sign-off for pilots to become "jump pilot" qualified.

You know that the insurance companies have some reasonably stiff requirements even for very experienced pilots, right?


What requirements? Total time? What does that teach you about flying skydivers?


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 8, 2004, 3:10 PM
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Re: [diverdriver] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

Total time, # of jump flights unders supervision.

At my DZ that means the current jump pilot and DZO and S&TA train the new jump pilot. Then the jump pilot rides along for X number of full altitude jump flights, THEN has to fly a set number of full alti jump flights with the current jump pilot riding along as well.

Yes, this is what we do even with our 182, we don't bullshit it, its very important and its done.


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Nov 8, 2004, 3:21 PM
Post #17 of 62 (3630 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes, this is what we do even with our 182, we don't bullshit it, its very important and its done.


Dave, this is not an attack on you. Are you taking it that way? Seems so. I'm asking for Candidates of the USPA BOD to tell me how they view the recent crashes and what they will do to improve the industry. They are the ones who can make policy and lead.

I want USPA to tell me they do or do not think there is a problem.


Also to add: Not everyone flys with insurance. Should a DZ be forced to disclose that they don't?


(This post was edited by diverdriver on Nov 8, 2004, 3:22 PM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 8, 2004, 3:33 PM
Post #18 of 62 (3627 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Dave, this is not an attack on you. Are you taking it that way? Seems so.

Hey, I was in a plane crash/off field landing that would have been provented if an A&P in the north east hadn't just pencil whipped the 100hr and annual...you're preaching to the choir. I honestly believe my "plane crash luck" has been used and if there is a next time I will die.

So I agree with you.

I also know that the guy (Todd Spillers) that I'm promoting hard core for the Gulf Region (as a write in) hasn't been online much in the past two weeks due to other things going on, simply hasn't had the chance to respond, but he feels very strongly on proper maintance. How do I know? Simply by how he operates as a DZO and our plane's maintance. Its not a game, its not a "lets play the grey area" its a "lets keep our plane in top shape so we're safe and we don't kill my friends." Plane maintance and pilot training is of the upmost priority to him!


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Nov 8, 2004, 3:39 PM
Post #19 of 62 (3625 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I also know that the guy (Todd Spillers) that I'm promoting hard core for the Gulf Region (as a write in) hasn't been online much in the past two weeks due to other things going on, simply hasn't had the chance to respond, but he feels very strongly on proper maintance. How do I know? Simply by how he operates as a DZO and our plane's maintance. Its not a game, its not a "lets play the grey area" its a "lets keep our plane in top shape so we're safe and we don't kill my friends." Plane maintance and pilot training is of the upmost priority to him!


That's fine that he's been offline. But there's more than just Todd running.

Yah, and that's my point about Mx and DZs. This pencil whipping is just rediculous. Seen some pencil whipping recently myself. And it's costing a DZ more than a couple 10s of thousands of dollars to fix after they already had paid for the Mx once.

So, something has to change in this industry.


ladyskydiver

Nov 8, 2004, 4:18 PM
Post #20 of 62 (3621 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ok, here is what I want.

I want the FAA to come up with a mandatory sign-off for pilots to become "jump pilot" qualified. I want the FAA to mandate and enforce the commercial pilot license requirement on all jump planes. I want DZs to actually DO 100 hour maintenance on their planes. I want DZs that have crashes where their plane ran out of gas to lose their GM. I want mandatory yearly recurrent training for jump pilots after the sign off.

That's a bit of a start.

Chris, from what you posted above, you should work with the FAA to get a jump pilot license.

What exactly do you want the USPA to do that is not under FAA's jurisdiction? The only thing that I see you suggesting that is under the USPA's jurisdiction is losing their GM status. The rest is FAA jurisdiction.


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Nov 9, 2004, 10:46 AM
Post #21 of 62 (3571 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Ok, here is what I want.

I want the FAA to come up with a mandatory sign-off for pilots to become "jump pilot" qualified. I want the FAA to mandate and enforce the commercial pilot license requirement on all jump planes.

I want mandatory yearly recurrent training for jump pilots after the sign off.

That's a bit of a start.

It would indeed be a start to more and more and more. I have seen people ask the FAA to regulate before. It opens a huge pandoras box.

What you suggest is not a solution to the problem. I hope no one will do anything rash that will affect the rest of us.

Ed


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Nov 9, 2004, 10:49 AM
Post #22 of 62 (3567 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

Ed,

Do you believe there is a problem? How do you propose we fix the current situation if you believe there is a problem?


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Nov 9, 2004, 11:44 AM
Post #23 of 62 (3557 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Do you believe there is a problem? How do you propose we fix the current situation if you believe there is a problem?

Hi Chris, Let's look at the crashes you mention.

The one at Jax could turn out to be pilot error, ie: weight and balance or trim. Pilots are hammered with this and no matter how much one is taught, mistakes will still be made. It is a problem that is not 100% fixable as long as humans are involved. Training or licensing would not matter on this one.

The Taylorville crash was caused by premature deployment. That falls into the same category. It is a problem that can obviously be prevented, but people make mistakes and that won't change. I don't think any amount of pilot training or licensing would have made a difference.

The Hartwood crash was a test flight. It had not flown jumpers for years and may not still have been a jump plane. Either way, a test flight is just that. Dan was a great pilot and licensing or training would not have mattered.

I have no absolute solution to any of the three above, nor do I believe one exists other than to ban skydiving and there are those who would pick that as a solution. I, for one, do not want to put ideas into their heads.

Take care,

Ed


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Nov 9, 2004, 12:25 PM
Post #24 of 62 (3546 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

There is no absolute solution. However, if someone looks carefully at the conditions that led to an accident, incidental things can be found that, if changed, can lessen the chances of a similar one.

Yes, that just gives another freak accident the opportunity to happen. Sometimes the way to prevent an accident is so onerous that it makes it better to just suck it up and accept the risk.

But I remember distinctly when no one wore seat belts on skydiving airplanes, and complained mightily when they first began to be introduced.

If we break down these accidents as part of a systematic analysis (there's a tool for it called REASON), we might be able to see something that can improve overall safety.

Saying it's too hard isn't right. This is an area that demands a lot of rigor. My feeling is that the S&T committee should either take a look at accidents in the last 10 years (picking a number out of the hat), or should commission a group with significant skydiving and piloting expertise to take a look at them in this sort of systematic way.

The results might be surprising.

Wendy W.


(This post was edited by wmw999 on Nov 9, 2004, 12:26 PM)


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Nov 9, 2004, 12:34 PM
Post #25 of 62 (3541 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] 4 fatal jump plane crashes in 2 weeks. [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's look broader then. Do you feel our accident rate is acceptable?

What I'm getting at in this industry is the attitude. Attitude is what leads to many of these accidents not just "humans making mistakes". If people make mistakes in an evironment that does not tolerate mistakes they die. We need to approach this sport/industry with an attitude towards safety.

Using printed checklists (which has been pushed since forever) is something that can help configuration accidents (out of trim takeoff / landing gear down). Mandatory gear checks not by regulation but by peer pressure would prevent a loose pin thus preventing a premature deployment on the step. How many premature deployments happened at Rantoul? Way to many if you ask me. People need to check their shit and take it seriously. Pilot currency is everything in flying planes. Not having flown a plane in 5 years and then try to take a plane flying on maintenence even though the mechanic said to just make high power taxi runs is a bad formula. What review on emergencies was done before takeoff? By accounts of witnesses the flaps were full down. Whether this played into the accident remains to be determined.


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