Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
pack sizes and wing loading

 


PalmettoTiger

Apr 24, 2001, 9:00 PM
Post #1 of 13 (1408 views)
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pack sizes and wing loading Can't Post

OK folks, it's Gear Time for Dannyboy. I've been looking around and it seems that most of the used mains available are 170 or smaller. Unfortunately, I'm out the door at 225 or 230 (depends on if I've puked or not Smile) so those 170s are waaaay too small. I'd like to know what wingloadings most of y'all started at once you got your own gear. Also, how much difference was there between your reserve and your main, sizewise? I've never really understood why reserves are usually smaller than mains - to open faster?

The other thing I'm wondering about is how flexible the listed pack volumes are. If I get a rig whose manufacturer recommends a 170 reserve and 190 main, will I have trouble with a 180/190 reserve and a 210 main? I know, I know, it depends on technique. But how much technique would I have to have to pack a canopy 20 sq ft over the manufacturer's suggestions?

And yes, I've asked this question at the DZ, and I've asked the rigger (my instructor has moved so he's not quite available). But the more people I hear from the more comfortable I'll be.

Blues, squares,
PTiger


jaybird  (D 24977)

Apr 24, 2001, 9:37 PM
Post #2 of 13 (1399 views)
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More important than anything, I think that you have to be comfortable with what canopy you will fly, you are the one who has to land it afterall. I have recently purchaced my first canopy. A 149 icarus crossfire. i am about 170 lbs then add gear for an exit wieght around 185-190. I started of course with the manta 288, then worked my way down with rentals and demos till i found what i was comfortable with. I have read though that the same wing loadings at different size canopies will still react differently. As far as pack size, that is still a mystery to me.



Premier skybytch  (D License)

Apr 24, 2001, 9:43 PM
Post #3 of 13 (1399 views)
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In reply to:
I'd like to know what wingloadings most of y'all started at once you got your own gear.
Well my first two reserves were round... First main was a Fury (7 cell F111) loaded at about .8, put 300 jumps on that; second main was a PD190 (9 cell F111) loaded about .9, put 200-ish jumps on that, and I've been jumping a variety of canopies loaded at about 1.1 for the last couple years. Going back up in size/wingloading to 1.0 on my next rig.

But I recommend wingloadings of around .9-1.1 for first mains. Which wingloading depends on a number of factors - planned currency (how often will you be jumping?), ability/talent (standing up student canopy? standing up something a bit smaller than student canopy?), location (altitude of the dz, progressiveness of the dz's canopy training program, windy?), age, physical fitness, previous aviation experience, etc...

Buy a reserve that you load at or below 1.0 lbs body weight/sq.ft. Most people seem to have smaller reserves than mains because that's how containers look best... but there are a few manufacturers that will size the container to fit whatever canopies you want, even if your main is a 107 and your reserve a 218. Check out the PD website for their dual-square out test report too; I think it covers differences in canopy sizes.

In reply to:
The other thing I'm wondering about is how flexible the listed pack volumes are. If I get a rig whose manufacturer recommends a 170 reserve and 190 main, will I have trouble with a 180/190 reserve and a 210 main? I know, I know, it depends on technique. But how much technique would I have to have to pack a canopy 20 sq ft over the manufacturer's suggestions?
It depends on technique Wink

I'd stick to the manufacturers recommendations, period. If this is your first rig and you are buying a zp main you're going to have enough hair loss just packing it into something sized for it. As for putting a larger reserve in, ask your rigger. My guess is the answer will be "not if you want me to pack it."

Besides the hassle/work factor, stuffing canopies that are too big into the container will stretch the container flaps. You'll also need to have longer closing loops that will be under increased tension (same with the stow bands on your d-bag). Oh yeah, minor point but the rigs I've seen packed up with canopies that are too big for them look really bad.

You can buy a rig sized for the main that is perfect for you now and safely downsize one to two canopy sizes in the same container when you are ready. Save yourself a lot of sweatin', swearin' and stuffin' and order a rig sized to fit the canopies you'll be putting in it. You'll be happier in the long run.

pull and flare,
lisa


SkySlut  (D License)

Apr 25, 2001, 4:24 AM
Post #4 of 13 (1374 views)
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Listen to Lisa aka Skybytch on this...she pretty much covered all the bases.

-Slut

"I'll jump anything!"


ramon  (D 26115)

Apr 25, 2001, 6:49 AM
Post #5 of 13 (1357 views)
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Out the door I was 220. My first main at (35 jumps experience) was a triathlon 175. No problems although triathlons are more forgiving for newbies at that wingloading than a 9 cell.

bloo skies
ramon



mattb  (D License)

Apr 25, 2001, 7:19 AM
Post #6 of 13 (1350 views)
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Tiger,

I just got my first rig and am wing loading it about at 1.3. It all depends on what you are comfortable with - I started jumping at 1:1 instead of on older student/gigantic gear so that made for a big difference. Getting used to packing I can give you the tip that I would not want to try to squeeze a 190 into a container made for a 170 or anything of that sort.

my 2 cents,
-mob



Merrick  (A 38462)

Apr 25, 2001, 7:38 AM
Post #7 of 13 (1345 views)
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Well, I'm about 220 out the door and I did my student progression on Manta 288's & a Skymaster 260.... those are wingloadings of just under .8:1 & just over .8:1, which are VERY conservative wing-loadings. I only have about 15 jumps on my first rig (javelin/Sabre 190 loaded @ about 1.15:1) and I'm already looking forward to downsizing. I'm a fairly good canopy pilot for being a novice (not including accuracy). My reserve is a PD176R, and I have absolutely no worries about whether or not I could handle landing it safely, I'm also very confident that a terminal opening on this reserve wouldn't cause any problems. PD reserves are strongly reinforced, and from what I understand, tend to be able to handle a little more force on opening that other comparable reserves.

As for packing a larger canopy into a smaller D-bag.... ARGH, My 190 can be a pain to pack in a bag sized for it, I wouldn't want to try stuffing it into anything smaller!

"Peace & Blu Skyzz!"
Merrick


PalmettoTiger

Apr 25, 2001, 8:21 AM
Post #8 of 13 (1339 views)
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Thanks for all your input folks. I think I'm going to get the Spectre 210 I saw at Square2. Depending on what my rigger says I'll get a Raven-I or a Raven-II from somewhere. I was really tempted to buy a Dolphin D3 that has 0 jumps and is available at a ridiculous price, but on y'all's advice I'll look for something one size bigger.

Thanks for all of your help!!

Blues, squares,
PTiger


Kris  (D 26033)

Apr 25, 2001, 10:07 PM
Post #9 of 13 (1282 views)
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My wingloading off of student status was right at about 1.25:1, then up to 1.3:1 and now with the diet I'm down to around 1.25:1 again on my Sabre 210. The reserve is a Raven III and it is 39ft2 larger than my main. As Lisa said, the reserves are usually smaller to make the rig look good but if I'm unconscious I'd rather live with maybe a few broken bones under my larger reserve and a big rig than look good while I try to kill myself with a small reserve.

I knew it was a bit high of a wingloading on my main to start with but with my size and the deal I got on the rig I couldn't pass it up. The ground-rush was amazing compared to jumping an F-111 student canopy but once I learned how to plane the canopy out I really enjoy the landings now.

I just make sure that I remember to respect what my canopy can do to me at that wingloading if I botch and I practice braked turns and flare turns on almost every jump so that if something happens to pop up at me on final I can hopefully try to avoid it without having my canopy hit the ground before I do from attempting a low, radical toggle turn. My canopy has already pimp-slapped me once when I timed a flare just a hair late and I ended up badly spraining my ankle the week before Quincy last year. I still went and had fun, but it would have been a lot more enjoyable if I didn't have a reminder of the rectal-cranial inversion I had pulled the week before.

Check with your jumpmaster's and other instructor's on the DZ as they will know your flying abilities better than we would. If nothing else, it never hurts to be a little conservative.

Just my $0.02



jake69

Apr 26, 2001, 11:00 AM
Post #10 of 13 (1249 views)
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If youn are looking for a good container, check out www.skykat.com. I just got a tricked out Infinity for
$1100 delivered. no extra costs for shipping or credit card. I was going to get a dolphin 2000 till I saw someones toggle come out while in a sitfly. For the price, just pay the extra 4 or 5 hundred and feel FREE. just my 2 pennies. Jake



Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Apr 29, 2001, 4:00 AM
Post #11 of 13 (1192 views)
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Before you go buying that main from the gear store, you probably want to check out all the online classifieds. This one (dropzone.com) is outstanding, as is www.enclave.com. I have sold a ton of gear on both sites. Also, if you are surfing gear-store sites, check SkyKat.com. Tony and Kate are outstanding.

Chuck



PalmettoTiger

Apr 29, 2001, 7:34 AM
Post #12 of 13 (1190 views)
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In reply to:
Also, if you are surfing gear-store sites, check SkyKat.com. Tony and Kate are outstanding.
I agree totally! I just ordered a Cypres from them - SkyKat seems to be the only place that doesn't charge you extra if the units have had their 4 or 8-year check. They answered all my dumb questions without hesitation, too!

I ended up missing that used Spectre 210 by a few minutes. DOH! I feel even worse now that I realize so few top-notch canopies are available used in the 210 or larger range. Almost makes me want to get in shape. WinkLaugh


Blues, squares,
PTiger


MatthewScott  (Student)

Apr 29, 2001, 3:41 PM
Post #13 of 13 (1182 views)
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Re: pack sizes and wing loading [In reply to] Can't Post

I am also a few jumps away from my A license. Right now I am jumping a spectre 190 and I am packing it in a D-Bag built for a 150. The reason for this being is it is demo gear and thats what they have attached to it. The rigger that taught me how to pack had to help me the first couple times, because I am still relatively new to packing and all. I can pack it now though, with all of 9 pack jobs under my belt. If you have trouble just ask someone that knows the proper technique. That is all that it boils down to really. As for wing loading as of my 12th jump I was jumping a canopy at about 1.18. It just depends on what you are ready for. Defenitly don't chose a canopy just because it will fit in a certain container. But packing is all technique which can be easily learned




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