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Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris

 

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bbarnhouse  (D License)
Pixie
Oct 15, 2004, 7:59 AM
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Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris Can't Post

FYI
The Perris Performance Plus email contained the following rule out of Perris Valley.
Quote:
During the last month we have had more than a couple of Cypress saves. All of these were due to lack of altitude awareness caused by blatant complacency and disregard for basic safety rules. This is completely unacceptable.
In response to this we have established a new rule. Anyone who has a cypress deployment due to lack of altitude awareness will be grounded at Perris for 30 days. Please deploy your own parachute by 2,000 feet. (That shouldn't be too much to ask.)

B2Smile and kudos to Dan BCCool


(This post was edited by bbarnhouse on Oct 15, 2004, 8:22 AM)


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Oct 15, 2004, 8:11 AM
Post #2 of 239 (5973 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Good for them! They should also add another line that if after reviewing the incident they have the right to ground the jumper for longer. Not that they need permission to impose a sanction but it may lead to fewer arguements down the road.

I watched a friend have a two out because he dumped low. We gave him so much shit! If he had not had the attitude that he made a huge mistake we would have worked to have his ass grounded for awhile. As it was, he grounded himself for a short time. Not 30 days but he did take it seriously.

Good for Perris!


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Oct 15, 2004, 8:12 AM
Post #3 of 239 (5971 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, Betsy!

A dotcommer from Europe PM'd me a while back about her CYPRES fire. During the online conversation she alluded to serious consequences from a CYPRES fire of this type (loss of altitude awareness or disregard of established pull altitudes). She mentioned losing her job and ratings. Unfortunately I no longer have the PM and I can't find the thread.

It sounds like there are other policies like this in place elsewhere in the world. I'd like to hear from some others on just how widespread this is.


KCJumper  (C 34189)

Oct 15, 2004, 8:16 AM
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Re: [slotperfect] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

At my home DZ we have a Cypress requirment. Becuase of that the rule we have is that a cypress save due to lack of attention or altitude awareness and you are done. Buy you a bowling ball and call it a day.

Not that i've seen this rule used but it's the statement i have heard made.

Patrick


happythoughts  (D License)

Oct 15, 2004, 8:20 AM
Post #5 of 239 (5946 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Excellent. My friend is a master scuba instructor. She said, if someone runs out of air, they have to put their gear in the closet for 30 days and come up with a good explanation for why they failed to monitor their air.

This is a similar situation. Lack of awareness.

Personally, I grounded myself once. I had become complacent and I decided that I was not giving the sport the respect that it deserves. I gave it a lot of thought as to how I arrived at that point.

This is an excellent idea.


sunshine  (D License)

Oct 15, 2004, 8:23 AM
Post #6 of 239 (5941 views)
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Re: [KCJumper] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's a shame. Sometimes shit happens. Thank god for the cypres. Making someone wait 30 days to jump again or handing them a bowling ball sucks. Oh well, just my opinion but i think a cypres fire once would ensure someone to not lose awareness again. Now if they have a second cypres fire, then something needs to be done.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Oct 15, 2004, 8:36 AM
Post #7 of 239 (5908 views)
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Re: [KCJumper] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that Skydive Kansas City?


Dagny  (B 28462)

Oct 15, 2004, 8:49 AM
Post #8 of 239 (5886 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Just curious, but does anyone think that having a mandatory grounding due to cypres fire will encourage people to stop using a cypres or not buy one for their rig at all? I would think that establishing a general rule for everyone without regard for individual circumstances would discourage the use of a cypres at a facility where an AAD is not a requirement.

Personally, I can't afford an AAD right now and, even though I know better, it would probably cross my mind when I am able to purchase one that an accidental low pull might have less undesirable consequences than an accidental cypres fire.


winsor  (D 13715)

Oct 15, 2004, 8:50 AM
Post #9 of 239 (5885 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think it's a shame. Sometimes shit happens. Thank god for the cypres. Making someone wait 30 days to jump again or handing them a bowling ball sucks. Oh well, just my opinion but i think a cypres fire once would ensure someone to not lose awareness again. Now if they have a second cypres fire, then something needs to be done.

The shit that I've seen happen in this sport often requires the services of a coroner. A CYPRES fire changes the outcome from a closed-casket funeral to a repack and a NSTIWTIWGTD story.

If you have a CYPRES fire, you are on free time for the rest of your life. You played Russian Roulette, got the chamber with the cartridge - and it was a dud.

If you had a CYPRES fire because of inattention, you should likely take up another hobby. Letting you back on the airplane at all, even after 30 days, is an act of consummate generosity. Sending you somewhere that you can have fun without so great a likelihood of killing yourself is doing you a massive favor.

Everyone is not cut out for this sport. It is not, and should not be considered, mainstream. The CYPRES has somewhat reduced the Darwinian nature of the sport (though I think the "Watch This!" landings have picked up much of the slack), but having a mechanical gizmo change your life expectancy from 6 seconds to decades is hardly a non-event.

I would suggest an instant 30 day grounding and an attitude review by a board before reinstatement - if you can detail the series of grave errors that led up to the incident and have a game plan to ensure that it never happens again you are subject to reinstatement; if you say "I did nothing wrong," the grounding becomes permanent.


Blue skies,

Winsor


Dagny  (B 28462)

Oct 15, 2004, 9:01 AM
Post #10 of 239 (5867 views)
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Re: [winsor] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Everyone is not cut out for this sport.

I don't think it's fair to make this statement. In the short time that I have been a skydiver, the only people I've talked to that have lost altitude awareness are AFF students and advanced jumpers who were too intense with their jumps...like someone I know who was doing an intense carving dive head down and both people lost alti awareness. I don't think there is an excuse good enough for losing your life due to losing altitude awareness, but losing awareness happens. It's a mistake, but mistakes happen. Of course, I understand the possible consequences of these mistakes and I recognize the gravity of these situations, but it seems like a harsh rule. Grounded for a day, for a week, and requiring a refresher in altitude awareness and sky safety, and/or requiring a jump with an instructor before allowing the offender to return to jumping make more sense to me than a 30 day layoff in which the person will simply jump at the next closest dropzone.

If someone did a purposeful action that resulted in cypres fire, I could understand a 30 day suspension to admonish them for their reckless behavior. But, an accidental occurrence doesn't necessarily warrant the same punishment, does it?

Why aren't there mandatory suspensions for other accidents which can result in death? i.e. making a low turn..?


(This post was edited by Dagny on Oct 15, 2004, 9:04 AM)


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Oct 15, 2004, 9:01 AM
Post #11 of 239 (5865 views)
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Re: [winsor] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Winsor, I whole heartedly agree with you. This IS a big deal to pull low like that. It's not like Cypres is set to go off at 3K! If you have a Cypres save or two out your are in the basement pure and simple. There is no excuse for loss of altitude awareness and a highly critical review of the incident is mandated by a Cypres fire.


bbarnhouse  (D License)
Pixie
Oct 15, 2004, 9:05 AM
Post #12 of 239 (5852 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Winsor, I whole heartedly agree with you. This IS a big deal to pull low like that. It's not like Cypres is set to go off at 3K! If you have a Cypres save or two out your are in the basement pure and simple. There is no excuse for loss of altitude awareness and a highly critical review of the incident is mandated by a Cypres fire.

I'll second that! I think that winsor has it nailed. Perhaps remedial training would be a good suggestion.
As to losing altitude awareness, we do have audibles and many of us fly with two of them. When the audible goes off...the skydive is over. Simple as that.
I think other drop zones will soon be taking the same stance as Perris Valley.


(This post was edited by bbarnhouse on Oct 15, 2004, 9:07 AM)


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Oct 15, 2004, 9:08 AM
Post #13 of 239 (5851 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Make a low turn and odds are you are taking time off due to laying there with broken bones. Get close a few times and get deep in the corner and get awy unhurt and you are almost gaurenteed to to talked to by at least someone. And yes, I've seen people get kicked for making stupid decision on landings. One at my DZ was grounded for a month due to not following the pattern and doing right hand landings in a left hand pattern.


sunshine  (D License)

Oct 15, 2004, 9:20 AM
Post #14 of 239 (5828 views)
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Re: [winsor] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you had a CYPRES fire because of inattention, you should likely take up another hobby.

I can think of a few peeps that have had cypres fires that i would still jump with. I consider them safe skydivers that just had one bad incident of losing altitude. We have Pablito, Lewmonst, DaGimp, Jimmie (he doesn't post). I would jump with them any day and don't think they need to take up another hobby.


Dagny  (B 28462)

Oct 15, 2004, 9:22 AM
Post #15 of 239 (5821 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
As to losing altitude awareness, we do have audibles and many of us fly with two of them. When the audible goes off...the skydive is over.

The two people I mentioned who lost alti awareness during a carving dive both had audibles. I just wonder if there isnt a better way to handle the accidental cypres fire than a layoff. It does nothing to educate or remediate or remedy the situation, in my opinion.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Oct 15, 2004, 9:36 AM
Post #16 of 239 (5793 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

A 30 day grounding for NOT dying because your stupid is a small price to pay. These people WOULD be dead from their "mistake". There are some legitamate excuses. If your trying to save your life and can't because of the gear or injury and the cypres saves you great! If your unconscious. Bonus Days. But if your too stupid to open your own parachute above the dirt? Maybe the better option would be to make them jump WITHOUT a cypres for a year. Not that this is reasonable but it might wake them up that they're responsible for their own life. And not just by spending $1200 extra.

A better remedy to the situation? Yep, ground them for life.

Okay Rant off.

Sorry


(This post was edited by councilman24 on Oct 15, 2004, 9:39 AM)


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Oct 15, 2004, 9:37 AM
Post #17 of 239 (5791 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The two people I mentioned who lost alti awareness during a carving dive both had audibles. I just wonder if there isnt a better way to handle the accidental cypres fire than a layoff. It does nothing to educate or remediate or remedy the situation, in my opinion.

A layoff is not permanent. There are plenty of reasons why people take 30 days off anyway.

We're talking about your life here. If you don't have enough backup altitude sensors to have you pull for yourself, then at the very least you need more backup altitude sensors.

The primary altitude sensor should be your brain; there's that little "how long has it been" feeling that comes with experience (but it's not that reliable); there are your eyes (but you have to look at the ground).

There are visual and audible altimeters.

I would trust jumping with any of the people I know who have had a Cypres fire. They're not endangering me; they're very focused. However, if you reach the point where you can't maintain focus on pulling, you should think about why something besides living is that important.

Skydiving is a sport where if you don't do something you die. The Cypres has changed that somewhat, but complacency is dangerous.

Wendy W.


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Oct 15, 2004, 9:43 AM
Post #18 of 239 (5781 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The two people I mentioned who lost alti awareness during a carving dive both had audibles. I just wonder if there isnt a better way to handle the accidental cypres fire than a layoff. It does nothing to educate or remediate or remedy the situation, in my opinion.


It does send a message to other jumpers that loss of altitude awareness will not be tolerated. The ground doesn't tolerate it. Why should we? Pull at the right time, every time, or get out. Being down at a 1,000 feet during opening on the main is unacceptable. If something goes wrong with the main deployment you have zero time to access the situation and take appropriate action other than chopping right away and pulling reserve and most people don't think that fast.

I'm glad to see a DZ take a stand and draw a line. It's your freedom to pull low but it is their business you are jacking with if you go in due to loss of altitude awareness. 30 days is nothing compared to the rest of your life. Nothing is so important on a skydive that you should stop thinking about how high you are above the ground. If you stop thinking about how high you are above the ground then you need to re-evaluate your participation in a sport that has zero care how careful you were on the last skydive. THIS skydive is the only one that matters.

It's been said before: The sky's not the limit. The ground is.


winsor  (D 13715)

Oct 15, 2004, 9:52 AM
Post #19 of 239 (5768 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Why aren't there mandatory suspensions for other accidents which can result in death? i.e. making a low turn..?
If you make a low turn and pull it off, good on you. The mandatory suspension from not pulling it off is typically enforced by the policies of the ICU, not the S&TA.

Sometimes the next skydive made after a botched low turn is an ash dive. Check out the fatalities page if you think I'm being overdramatic.

30 days on the ground is a minor inconvenience compared to the results if you didn't have the CYPRES handy.

I am not impressed by people who are so cavalier about the effects of loss of altitude awareness. At least half the time I jump without an AAD. IMHO, if you wouldn't leave the plane without an AAD, you might give some thought as to how much responsibility you really accept for the outcome of the skydive.


Blue skies,

Winsor


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 15, 2004, 10:14 AM
Post #20 of 239 (5741 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sometimes shit happens.

Shit does not just happen. There is a reason for things happening. You go below 1000' and you cypress fires you had a major gear problem or you fucked up. In either case, without the cypress you are dead. People need to understand that.

Sparky


Ron

Oct 15, 2004, 10:44 AM
Post #21 of 239 (5711 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
During the last month we have had more than a couple of Cypress saves. All of these were due to lack of altitude awareness caused by blatant complacency and disregard for basic safety rules. This is completely unacceptable.
In response to this we have established a new rule. Anyone who has a cypress deployment due to lack of altitude awareness will be grounded at Perris for 30 days. Please deploy your own parachute by 2,000 feet. (That shouldn't be too much to ask.)

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!

I agree 100%

After a second time, you would not be allowed back.


Ron

Oct 15, 2004, 10:49 AM
Post #22 of 239 (5707 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think it's a shame. Sometimes shit happens

Shit happening can kill you.

The only thing this sport is really about is surviving...Points turned, big formations, head down carves...ALL are second to landing safe.

If you can't do the #1 thing do to another lesser thing....You need to rethink the situation.

In reply to:
Making someone wait 30 days to jump again or handing them a bowling ball sucks.

Funerals suck more.


In reply to:
Oh well, just my opinion but i think a cypres fire once would ensure someone to not lose awareness again.

so ONE is OK?

It is this attitude that has increased the number of CYPRES fires over the number of low pull deaths.


ChasingBlueSky  (D License)

Oct 15, 2004, 10:51 AM
Post #23 of 239 (5706 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just curious, but does anyone think that having a mandatory grounding due to cypres fire will encourage people to stop using a cypres or not buy one for their rig at all?

Yup, exactly what I was thinking. Or just take the rig to another DZ/Rigger to hide what happened and thus not having the reality of the situation discussed with them (re:no lesson learned). Plus, I doubt that Elsinore is enforcing this rule so it wouldn't take much to drive down the street and jump there.

And what about those idiots that don't have an AAD and DO pull low all the time? Just because they don't have a cutter in their rig makes it ok for them to repeat it? Also, do you really think that lack of a Cypres will cause the idiots in this sport to maintain Alti awarness? I'm sure by now we have all seen the Cypres ad with the guy landing in a backyard. The lack of an AAD didn't stop that guy from going low.

This rule has some great intentions, and I support the forward thinking they have on this subject. I agree a lot with what people have said in favor of this rule. This sport is not for everyone, funerals, suck, alti awarness isn't an option, etc. However, I think this rule can end up causing damage in the long run....or worse, a dead body.


(This post was edited by ChasingBlueSky on Oct 15, 2004, 1:36 PM)


Ron

Oct 15, 2004, 10:59 AM
Post #24 of 239 (5697 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just curious, but does anyone think that having a mandatory grounding due to cypres fire will encourage people to stop using a cypres or not buy one for their rig at all?

No. Fear of being grounded for 30 days is a stupid reason not to have a CYPRES.

What it WILL do is make people pay attention.

Winsor wrote:
Quote:
Everyone is not cut out for this sport.

You said:
In reply to:
I don't think it's fair to make this statement

I think its a perfectly fair statement. People are continuing to jump due to the CYPRES being around that would have quit long ago....I am not sure that thats a good thing.

I have seen MANY people who should not be skydiving.

In reply to:
In the short time that I have been a skydiver, the only people I've talked to that have lost altitude awareness are AFF students and advanced jumpers who were too intense with their jumps...like someone I know who was doing an intense carving dive head down and both people lost alti awareness.

The number ONE thing in this sport is to survive...EVERYTHING else is SECOND. EVERYTHING.

If you are to busy turning points or going for the "cool carve" to stay focused on the number ONE thing....Your priorities are fucked up. 30 days thinking about it is a SMALL price.

In reply to:
30 day layoff in which the person will simply jump at the next closest dropzone.

I would call the other DZ...And if another DZ told me that they grounded a jumper...I'd ground them also....In any case if I ground them at my DZ at least they will not bounce there.

In reply to:
If someone did a purposeful action that resulted in cypres fire, I could understand a 30 day suspension

I'd rather have a guy doing low pulls ON PURPOSE than a guy doing one on accident.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Oct 15, 2004, 11:05 AM
Post #25 of 239 (5686 views)
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Re: [Ron] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

I hate it when I agree with you Laugh

j/k

Blues,
Ian


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