Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Wing Suit Flying:
Banning wingsuits!

 


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Oct 14, 2004, 12:07 AM
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Banning wingsuits! Can't Post

 Ever hear of it? Besides the two overly documented cases, Rantoul and Eloy holiday 03?

This was one topic imbeded in a previous and long tread with many other topics. Its brought up quite a bit. Just like the statement " flys big" it can be confusing to some and aggravating to others. I'm sure some people will think this is overdone. I think it merits disscusing just based on the topic and without spin.

Post your experiences. If you ever experienced any negativity in regards to wingsuits or as a result of someone else with a wingsuit.


(This post was edited by VectorBoy on Oct 14, 2004, 12:37 AM)


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Oct 14, 2004, 12:21 PM
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Re: [VectorBoy] Banning wingsuits! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll take your bait my friend.

Though I think the point of your post is to justify your thoughts of wingsuits not needing some sort of a structured guideline or rated Instructor program, should a problem banning of arise in a higher level then it has already.

Possibly a better question to ask would be, how many would be safisfied to know there is some sort of structured program or safety guideline, set up by the wingsuit flyers or manufacturers, with the forthought of having something set in place for proper instruction in wingsuit stlye and flight pattern safety, should some forms of wingsuit banning arise?

Though, we all know even if some sort of program is implemented, any DZ can over rule it, or anything they choose, and the program would mean nothing.

But if we show them that we are responsible and teaching the people, that have aquired or borrowed a wingsuit and may have low jump numbers , the proper technique on flight patterns and safety in that style of suit in a structured program, and that wingsuits are here to stay.

All the DZ's had to deal with years ago was exit seperation for freefall.
The parachutes were round and didn't cover much distance in the air.
Now they have exit seperation and canopy flight pattern seperation.
Also they have seperated the swoopers from the general canopy flyers with seperate landing areas.
Will we need separate air space too?
How many DZ's do you know that have BANNED hook turns?
They have ONLY set up swoop area's because they know this is the future of the sport and have set up some sort of HP canopy training for the newbie that wants to look cool, but has no experience on a HP canopy.
How many low time jumpers have you seen jumping something you don't think they are ready for, and said to yourself someone should take that away from them before they get killed?
Are you truely concerned for their safety?
Or are you maybe thinking, shit, if every newbie out there can get one that easy and kill themselves, they might just ban the HP canopy for everyone if it keeps happening?

IMO, the new age of wingsuit are just in it's infancy, and will go possibly beyond our current thoughts.

Wing suits will fall slower, thus DZ's with multiple aircraft will have to deal with a flyer out there still flying around when the next load is planning to drop. It's a problem we have already experienced in the past.
They will also fly farther, thus they'll be dealing with their planes flight pattern, when they are trying to get the plane down as fast as they can for their next load.

Maybe you think they'll never ban the wingsuits, but what if they decide after some more fatalities from improper training, just to not deal with it?
Or just make us pay more for our jump tickets, because we'll have to do a seperate jump run far away from the DZ?

I have dealt with a DZO that did ban wingsuits, and I can tell you now that they are welcome at the DZ now.

Maybe Tom Aiello could comment on this he posted some time ago also?

Ed


(This post was edited by bodypilot1 on Oct 14, 2004, 1:50 PM)


Kris  (D 26033)

Oct 14, 2004, 1:08 PM
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Re: [VectorBoy] Banning wingsuits! [In reply to] Can't Post

The DZ in KS where Geoff Peggs went in due to a wingsuit-related mal banned wingsuits until just a few months ago, if I recall correctly.


diablopilot  (D License)

Oct 14, 2004, 1:31 PM
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Re: [VectorBoy] Banning wingsuits! [In reply to] Can't Post

Explain. Banning how?

Individuals banned from jumping just because of skill level or unsafe behavior? I'm definately for that if it's going to prevent an incident.

Banning an individual because they continualy encourage and assist those not qualified to jump a wingsuit, and do so against the DZ's wishes? Yeah, I'd go for that too.

Banning because of an extremely busy situation or event (i.e. the ban durring a small portion of the US Nationals this year dur to 4 A/C running with everything from 4.5 hop and pop's, 10.5 4 way passes, CRW, normal freefallers, and Tandems and AFF)? Yeah I'm for that too.

At a DZ just because the DZO/DZM doesn't want to deal? Well it's their business.

Not sure I'm following you.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Oct 14, 2004, 1:33 PM)


ManBird  (D 28001)

Oct 14, 2004, 1:38 PM
Post #5 of 11 (1358 views)
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Re: [VectorBoy] Banning wingsuits! [In reply to] Can't Post

Where's the love?


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Oct 14, 2004, 6:56 PM
Post #6 of 11 (1307 views)
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Re: [Kris] Banning wingsuits! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The DZ in KS where Geoff Peggs went in due to a wingsuit-related mal banned wingsuits until just a few months ago, if I recall correctly.

I would like to know the true factual form of their policy, if any.

This is a shinning example of what I'm asking about. If the dropzone in question would prefere that wingsuits not be jumped there out of respect or in mememory of a lost loved one. Whether if it has manifested itself not just as unspoken request but as a hard and fast rule by the owners and managers. I'm curious to know the feelings of the locals there as it relates to this subject .


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Oct 14, 2004, 7:00 PM
Post #7 of 11 (1305 views)
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Re: [VectorBoy] Banning wingsuits! [In reply to] Can't Post

The DZ is a club and while I don't think it was ever official policy they just really frowned on it till this year when their club president started flying a suit for himself. He posts here some times.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Oct 14, 2004, 7:55 PM
Post #8 of 11 (1293 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Banning wingsuits! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Explain. Banning how?

Individuals banned from jumping just because of skill level or unsafe behavior? I'm definately for that if it's going to prevent an incident.

Banning an individual because they continualy encourage and assist those not qualified to jump a wingsuit, and do so against the DZ's wishes? Yeah, I'd go for that too.

Banning because of an extremely busy situation or event (i.e. the ban durring a small portion of the US Nationals this year dur to 4 A/C running with everything from 4.5 hop and pop's, 10.5 4 way passes, CRW, normal freefallers, and Tandems and AFF)? Yeah I'm for that too.

At a DZ just because the DZO/DZM doesn't want to deal? Well it's their business.

Not sure I'm following you.

Thanks JP, a brilliant response and this would cover the other facets of curtailment / banning. And yeah buddy you are following me.

In the case of someone , an individual, behaving dangerously for lack of skill or ignorance to the procedures or with disregard for the known procedures for that DZ or discipline ( any discipline ). Then that person should be dealt with as an individual and the situation should be addressed. I don't believe that this is a wingsuit exclusive sentiment.

The second one could be a gray area if lets say someone with low jump numbers gets a wingsuit on there own ( or HP canopy or Base gear) and is going to just go it alone ( as many people did and I don't recommend ) making sure they are prepared as best they can be or at the very least making sure they are aware of some key issues as it can effect the safety of others on the dropzone. And I'm not talking about someone with fifty jumps who scored an S3 off the internet, which is extreme and for the most part doesn't happen. I'm talking about someone who is more inline with what is practical. If I blow the whistle on someone chances are they will just go and jump a wingsuit somehow and somewhere without help anyway. But just like the first example it is also an individual situation and should be dealt on a personal level, not directed at a discipline.

The third example is a good one as it can be confused as a full no exception ban. But in cases like this it is a smart maneuver, I agree with it, and I believe that in other instances when some one mentions banning this is instead what they are really talking about.......event curtailment. The shameful part is that decision should be a personal one, first, by the wise wingsuiters with experience to stand down, along with the DZ policy for safe work load reasons during those times. I know flockers that absolutely will not engage in wingsuit flight during high volume events. I know of no body I flock with even trying it during the nationals. The same people avoid big boogies and major weekends for the same reason. personal safety. Its wise and should be excepted. I believe that WFFC and Eloy holiday 03 fall under this representation and not example #4.

In the fourth example ( the perfect example ) you mention an owner or manager just not wanting it around for whatever personal reason. I would consider this under the category of "all out ban" and an example of what some people are referring to. And yes it is there business to be run the way they see fit, I agree with the right of any business owner to have the last say on how his/her business is conducted.
This is the perfect example, question is have you ever heard of this? Anywhere? I'm mean in regards to wingsuits? If not the actual policy.... the desire for the actual policy? The talk of it by people in charge at that location?

And on the flipside do you know of anyone who wingsuits on a dropzone that is creating that sentiment which in the end could make an owner or manager put such a policy in place?


(This post was edited by VectorBoy on Oct 14, 2004, 7:59 PM)


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Oct 14, 2004, 8:23 PM
Post #9 of 11 (1284 views)
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Re: [bodypilot1] Banning wingsuits! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'll take your bait my friend.

Though I think the point of your post is to justify your thoughts of wingsuits not needing some sort of a structured guideline or rated Instructor program, should a problem banning of arise in a higher level then it has already
.
Ed

Ed, dude you spun my tread.
No my thoughts on wingsuit training have nothing to do with the question. Who cares what I think about wingsuit training guidelines? That s a different tread.

This one is about banning and curtailment of wingsuit activities. Something everybody in a wingsuit should be concerned about. We hear about. The thought makes some of us mad and it confuses others.

Since it is confusing we have broken it down further so we can understand it when it comes up in conversation.


diablopilot  (D License)

Oct 14, 2004, 11:42 PM
Post #10 of 11 (1259 views)
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Re: [VectorBoy] Banning wingsuits! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
This is the perfect example, question is have you ever heard of this? Anywhere? I'm mean in regards to wingsuits? If not the actual policy.... the desire for the actual policy? The talk of it by people in charge at that location?

Sure I know of a few examples. One was a NOr Cal DZ that changed it's tune as pressures demanded it be eventualy accepted.

Another in the midwest after a fatality, however education and understanding prevailed, and the sport seems to be thriving there now.

It's all change, hook turns were banned in many places years ago, now they are accepted.

Quote:
And on the flipside do you know of anyone who wingsuits on a dropzone that is creating that sentiment which in the end could make an owner or manager put such a policy in place?

I don't think so, but sometimes I'm not as observant as I should be.

*wingless for the moment*


ManBird  (D 28001)

Oct 15, 2004, 11:38 AM
Post #11 of 11 (1176 views)
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Re: [VectorBoy] Banning wingsuits! [In reply to] Can't Post

Where's the glove?



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