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Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why?

 


Poll: Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why?
Yes 18 / 37%
No 27 / 55%
Other, please explain. 4 / 8%
49 total votes
 
tandemphil  (D 26626)

Oct 10, 2004, 6:35 AM
Post #1 of 25 (2875 views)
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Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? Can't Post

Just curious if TI's out there take students to terminal intentionally. Under what conditons you do it, and for what reasons.

I do it occasionally, usually with second or third time jumpers whose body positions and awareness level I trust. I'll do it for someone who wants an even wilder ride than the first one or, sometimes, just because it is fun. I wont do it if there is video or with a first time jumper.

How do you all feel about this? Is it ok to continue to do this, should I stop doing this?

thanks for your input.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Oct 10, 2004, 7:11 AM
Post #2 of 25 (2860 views)
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Re: [tandemphil] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I did a few 10 second delays - before tossing the drogue - this summer to remind myself of what tandem terminal feels like and to reassure myself that I still have the flying skills from back in the days before drogues.
I don't do this on a regular basis because I remember the one time I deployed a reserve at tandem terminal: not a pleasant experience!


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Oct 10, 2004, 2:35 PM
Post #3 of 25 (2788 views)
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Re: [tandemphil] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I usually do it for a jumper's third or so tandem, when the tandem is not intended as a "working" dive with the intent of the student completing AFF eventually.

They are a lot of fun for me - only requiring a little more diligence in making sure there's nothing loose that will beat me or the student severely when at tandem terminal.


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Oct 10, 2004, 7:14 PM
Post #4 of 25 (2763 views)
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Re: [tandemphil] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that hard on the drogue?


bclark  (D 22626)

Oct 10, 2004, 8:37 PM
Post #5 of 25 (2745 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I will very rarely do a little with a heads up 2nd or 3rd tandem student. Usually it is my alternative to the whole "can we do flips out of the plane?" thing. I don't do intentional aerobatics on exit, as I really take alot of pleasure in the very nice, well controlled, aesthetically pleasing diving or poised exits. So, I will sometimes challenge a student to give me a really nice exit in exchange for a little drogueless time ( 10-15 seconds ). YES, it is hard on the drogue. So I don't do it too often.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Oct 10, 2004, 8:55 PM
Post #6 of 25 (2742 views)
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Re: [tandemphil] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I voted Yes and Other. Like the others, if its a second or third tandem in a reasonably short period of time, I'll ask them how creative they want to get (backflips) and take it to terminal. Other - because if they have video on the dive...


skydiverton  (D 123456789)

Oct 10, 2004, 11:05 PM
Post #7 of 25 (2726 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do it sometimes, just to keep feeling with the higher speed. For me it's the same as pulling the secondary released a couple of times a year just to keep feeling with it.


skytribe  (D 9403)

Oct 11, 2004, 11:09 AM
Post #8 of 25 (2637 views)
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Re: [skydiverton] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I personally dont do it intentionally as it does tend to tear up the strong drogues more quickly so I'm reliably information by a DRPE on staff.

On second or third tandems we do an AFP program so they are working skydives for the student. They are paying for maximum working time and not for me to test my own ability to skydive at tandem terminal.

On a first time tandem - it is all about safety and getting stable and pitching the drogue is part of that.

At start of season we were informed about what was acceptable. That included all having to redo the USPA tandem instructors exam so that they were on file..... Along with acceptable pull heights etc.

It may seem rather unneccessary to have to go through this but sometimes when changes in management occur - different S&TA's or different philosophies from chief instructor. It requires that all instructors are playing using the same rules....


billbooth  (D 3546)

Oct 11, 2004, 1:50 PM
Post #9 of 25 (2614 views)
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Re: [tandemphil] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

In case anybody is curious, our tests show that if you throw your drogue at tandem terminal, it takes a full 8 seconds to slow back down. I personally have about 200 tandem terminal openings before I started using a drogue. We now go to terminal only when we need to test new stuff. It does wear out everything, including the jumpers, a whole lot faster. As a matter of fact, I used to be quite good looking before all those tandem terminals.


tandemphil  (D 26626)

Oct 11, 2004, 3:39 PM
Post #10 of 25 (2595 views)
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Re: [billbooth] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

-----------------------------------------------------------
"as a matter of fact, I used to be quite good looking before all those tandem terminals"
-----------------------------------------------------------
LMFHO
Thanks for your input Bill. And also thank you for the sigma system. I've done 750 tandems on the sigma system and don't plan on using any other system out there. Now, how about some smaller main canopies like maybe a 350 or a 330?


billbooth  (D 3546)

Oct 12, 2004, 8:12 AM
Post #11 of 25 (2546 views)
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Re: [tandemphil] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I love the Sigma 370. However, I still ask PD for smaller tandem canopies quite often. It's up to them.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Oct 12, 2004, 8:39 AM
Post #12 of 25 (2539 views)
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Re: [tandemphil] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I will do it on occasion for various and sundry reasons.

-a group wanting to "jump together", so I leave last and fly down almost on level with the other group(s) before throwing my drogue. If someone isn't paying for a video I still want them to see other skydivers on level during the jump so that they don't fixate on the ground.

-people who want to do some aerobatics. I am not afraid to do flips out the door.

-exits with front-floating video that go head-down. I will let it happen, get fast, then pop flat after a time and throw my drogue.


skytribe  (D 9403)

Oct 12, 2004, 9:00 AM
Post #13 of 25 (2535 views)
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Re: [billbooth] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Would it not be up to you to commission them to build you smaller canopies for your systems ?


tandemphil  (D 26626)

Oct 12, 2004, 9:04 AM
Post #14 of 25 (2535 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Chuck,

You are lucky that the video flyers at your dz are capable and allowed to go head down. Here at Eloy, the owner of the video concession does not allow his camera flyers to freefly. Granted, a slight ammount of head down time may be required for some of the exits, but we tandem instructors are expected to get the drogue out fast to insure the longest possible "flat" time for the videots.


skytribe  (D 9403)

Oct 12, 2004, 9:16 AM
Post #15 of 25 (2534 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I will do it on occasion for various and sundry reasons.

-a group wanting to "jump together", so I leave last and fly down almost on level with the other group(s) before throwing my drogue. If someone isn't paying for a video I still want them to see other skydivers on level during the jump so that they don't fixate on the ground.

-people who want to do some aerobatics. I am not afraid to do flips out the door.

-exits with front-floating video that go head-down. I will let it happen, get fast, then pop flat after a time and throw my drogue.


To me (and its my personal opinion so dont crucify me for it) but none of those reasons appear to be particularly valid reasons for doing it....

Group wanting to jump together - seeing others jumpers so they dont fixate on the ground. I can't say I have the large number of of jumpers fixating on the ground and how close are you leaving to get on the level of other skydivers to make it worth it.... I'm not sure you talking other tandems / experienced jumpers or just anyone but to me if they are experienced jumpers they jump with me and no need to go tandem terminal - if they are other groups or inexperienced jumpers do I really want to be a sitting duck in the sky near them should someone have a premature or something like that.....

I'm not afraid to flip out the door - heck with a tailgat its part and parcel of standard walk out exit. But do I let student determine what we are doing - no, I'm the instructor and they are the student. They can request but ultimately on a first jump its gonna be a well planned / briefed dive with risks minimized. Aerobatics and Drogueless freefall do not in my opinion fall into that category.

Front float video - Again no real need - we have front and rear float from side door and you can get good video from front float without having to do tandem terminal...

Sounds to me as though its more about you and what you want to do rather than any tangible benefits for students learning or safety. (and thats fine....) but for me safety is the prime motivating factor - I minimize unneccessary risks and tandem terminal / aerobatics and giving camera people opportunity to freefly with tandem (more for there enjoyment) are not high on my list of solid reasons to be doing it....

Having to repair torn up drogues is not a fun job - and for small operations this may not be a problem but with 20+ tandem rigs in operation in the summer and all getting lots of usage - shredding drogues in a shorter time period does not make you popular with the riggers or DZ Owner who has to pay for repairs or new drogues....

Doesn't the USPA tandem Instructor say to pitch within 10 seconds of exit or something like that on the written test.

I'm trying to think of a real valid reason to intentionally doing tandem terminal (except for instructor certification) and I'm struggling but I'm all ears.....


ryoder  (D 6663)

Oct 12, 2004, 6:24 PM
Post #16 of 25 (2492 views)
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Re: [billbooth] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In case anybody is curious, our tests show that if you throw your drogue at tandem terminal, it takes a full 8 seconds to slow back down. I personally have about 200 tandem terminal openings before I started using a drogue. We now go to terminal only when we need to test new stuff. It does wear out everything, including the jumpers, a whole lot faster. As a matter of fact, I used to be quite good looking before all those tandem terminals.

Looks like 7 seconds here, but this also doesn't look like we actually hit terminal, i.e. the velocity curve was still climbing when the drogue was pitched at 20 seconds @ 9000 feet:
http://www.dimensional.com/.../tandem-terminal.pdf

FYI TI: 190 lbs 1000+ jumps, passenger: 210 lbs 3000+ jumps, ProTrack max speed: 203 mph


(This post was edited by ryoder on Oct 12, 2004, 6:26 PM)


bclark  (D 22626)

Oct 13, 2004, 3:03 PM
Post #17 of 25 (2431 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I seem to remember something about a manufacturer / manufacturers coming out a few years ago with a statement STRONGLY DISCOURAGING any intentional aerobatics on exits.
Does anyone else remember this and what were the details?

Also, it seems to me that most DZ's I have been to have a "no aerobatics" policy. I can see no reason to do aerobatics on a first jump. Hell most first tandem students don't remember the first 10 seconds out the door anyway. When I get a first tandem student who wants to do flips I say, "OK, we'll do some flips." And then I go skydive stable and most of them either don't notice. Most of them mistake a good diving exit for a flip!


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 13, 2004, 3:33 PM
Post #18 of 25 (2425 views)
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Re: [bclark] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
OK, we'll do some flips." And then I go skydive stable and most of them either don't notice. Most of them mistake a good diving exit for a flip!

Exactly.

I generally tell my students no flips on exit, spin the stable exit as a very positive thing to them. Unfortunately it has to be spun since they are whuffos and have no frigg'n clue what is safe and what isn't safe.


noggydog  (D 26627)

Oct 26, 2004, 12:27 PM
Post #19 of 25 (2310 views)
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Re: [tandemphil] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think out of the three thousand tandems done at my home dz maybe 100 of them were poised exits. Most exits are flip or flips of some sort, and some other creative stuff. I haven't heard one side spin story or overly gnarly situation. But thats probably due to the instuctors being used to getting stable from all sorts of orientations. The thing with doing unstable exits and disorientating maneuvers is it prepares you for that wuffo that does "all the wrong things". I'm a relatively new tandem instructor, when I was going through my course I picked people that were going to give me a realistic, and some not so realistic situations to deal with on every jump. Also that would teach me what a tandem canopy can do, its not many a TI that can truelly trash there canopy, and since we learn to do it with our own we sure as better know what the canopy above your head can do when you have a person depending on you to get them to the ground safely. Fly your body and that canopy. There are alot of situations I think tandem masters don't think about. A friend of mine posed a great one to me this summer. What would you do if you had another flyer tangled in your drogue? What if your drogue entangled with another flyer you cut away and your main container locks? If your getting bored think of the most obscure thing that could happen and figure your way out of it. Ever touched your hook knife in freefall or under canopy? I know this is a little off topic but it goes along with never going to terminal, you may never have to deal with the situation but its better to be prepared for the occasion than just wish it never happens. Oh and we do go through drogues quicker than the average DZ I think.


(This post was edited by noggydog on Oct 26, 2004, 12:29 PM)


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Oct 27, 2004, 9:26 PM
Post #20 of 25 (2250 views)
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Re: [noggydog] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

question from a new jumper....just curious: when doing a tandem, whose body position is more important - the student or the TM? i would assume the TM, but can the student totally fuck the TMs stability, and how? i mean if the student goes fetal and the TM arches what is the end result? whose body position makes the most difference? the TM or the student?
i am assuming something along these lines is the reason TMs have to watch that video of tandems biffing in before certification....


skydiverton  (D 123456789)

Oct 28, 2004, 5:06 AM
Post #21 of 25 (2237 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

The TM his bodyposition, he has to react on the position of the passenger.

Arching to solve the problem won't always work.

For a TM the video you mention shows a lot more

For the details: make a lot of jumps and become a TM yourself.


SmileHAVE FUNTongue


(This post was edited by skydiverton on Oct 28, 2004, 5:06 AM)


lug  (D License)

Oct 29, 2004, 7:52 PM
Post #22 of 25 (2190 views)
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Re: [tandemphil] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes on level ones only and its mostly for me. Ok I am kind of selfish but when a fist time student nails the exit with a good arch and we have presented will into the RW, Ill give then a couple grand, but there are condition and number one they got to be stable. Cool

Never on the upper level jumps they are paying to learn they have a lot to do like PHTs, fwd motion, turns, AA, and pull on time. Besides I also need to give corrective hand signals. Angelic


Ron

Nov 8, 2004, 5:40 AM
Post #23 of 25 (2085 views)
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Re: [tandemphil] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't take the tandem to terminal.

There is no reason for it. It is worse on the gear, you risk a possibly dangerous terminal reserve opening, and does nothing for the student.

I don't try to flip out the door either.
I am there to ensure a safe and fun jump for my paying passenger. They don't know most times if they flipped or not, and don't care most times.

Again my opinion...It can be done, but I see no reason for it....My car can do 130, but I don't do it just cause I can, or to "test" myself at driving at that speed. And if I did, I would not take a passenger with me.


SCR10480  (D 27870)

Nov 10, 2004, 12:17 PM
Post #24 of 25 (2029 views)
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Re: [tandemphil] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I did it...because I had to! It was part of my certification. I had to have a passenger (experienced) and jump from 11,500, go Drogue-less, and perform two alternate 360's (stop on heading)and practice pulls on ALL handles. Drogue was deployed by 7500' and released by 5500.' A VERY busy skydive!

According to each of our FF computers, we reached a top speed of 204 MPH. and took a full 10 seconds to slow to 120.

__________________________________________________


(This post was edited by SCR10480 on Nov 10, 2004, 12:20 PM)


Bowie  (C 1874)

Nov 22, 2004, 1:08 PM
Post #25 of 25 (1927 views)
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Re: [SCR10480] Tandem Terminal: do you do it? when? why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Look at this video i made. it is the 1. jump Jesper made during our tandem sensei education (the first jump as passenger)

http://www.flyinggnu.dk/...=sendvideo&id=36



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