Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Relative Work:
Tracking question

 


a97virago  (A 43434)

Aug 30, 2004, 1:13 PM
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Tracking question Can't Post

Lately I've been logging my jumps with a pro-track and been seeing some outrageous freefall speeds. Now bear in mind, I am a belly flyer! On my last 2 jumps, I hit max fall rates of about 160mph. When I looked at my pro-track, it appears that I am getting these speeds in a track.

I had assumed that in a track my fall rate would be less as I would be converting some of it to Horizontal. Or am I way off? I'm afraid that I'm not getting near the separation I should because my track isn't as good as it should be. Now my question, WHAT AM I DOING WRONG? I'm gonna try and get some video this weekend and see that I'm doing. Any other suggestions?


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Aug 30, 2004, 1:16 PM
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Re: [a97virago] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

They only way to help you would be to see video. People can tell you all day how to hold the body position, but unless we see video we can't see what youare doing wrong. I am sure your instructors have gone over the best body positions with you.

A video is worth 1000 posts.


a97virago  (A 43434)

Aug 30, 2004, 1:22 PM
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Re: [dgskydive] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree, and that's why I'll get video next time. The problem with what my instructors told me, is that it was quite a while ago. I probably have developed plenty of bad habits in that time.

Was just looking to see if anyone has seen this symptom before.


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Aug 30, 2004, 1:32 PM
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Re: [a97virago] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure. Most everyone sucks at tracking at first. Tracking takes lots and lots of practice to get really good at. I see people with thousands of jumps that can't track for shit, but they think they do.

Jump with more experienced jumpers that can watch you and help you. WJile tracking away from a formation try and see the other jumpers on the loas as they track away. Are they above you, are they relative with you, are they below you? Oone thing that a lot of folks don't do or think about is to roll their shoulders forward while tracking. It really makes a huge diference.


WingnutOrange  (D 28928)

Aug 30, 2004, 7:02 PM
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Re: [a97virago] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

You are probably putting yourself into a dive during your track. I was taught to de-arch at breakoff to slow down and move into a track while maintaining slowfall. Some of the more experienced rw guys probably know about this and can coach you.


Merkur  (D 27990)

Aug 31, 2004, 8:20 AM
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Re: [a97virago] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you get the data from the protrack itself or through the software readout (jump track)?
With the jump track curve you can really see, in which phase of the jump you developed the max speed.
Is it true airspeed (TAS) or skydivers airspeed (SAS)? The latter takes field elevation into account and makes the speed more comparable. If TAS, what field elevation do you jump at?


daveb  (D 23982)

Sep 1, 2004, 10:58 AM
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Re: [a97virago] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't read too much into the max speed number. It is a true peak speed, which can occur at any point in the skydive due to a rapid pressure change; see the ProTrack booklet for placement concerns for accurate readings, and note that a helmet mount is not recommended if high accuracy is desired. My protrack consistently records a max speed 20 mph faster than first half and 30-35 faster than second half, and this is on reasonably good 4way! Realize that the track vertical descent is averaged into the second half, and the dive/exit into the first half. Depending upon the duration of the track, a max speed this large would increase the second half average; but in my case, the second half is always quite a bit slower than the first half, and we don't typically funnel our exits (blooper reels notwithstanding ;-).

What I have not done, and probably should, is invest in the JumpTrack software, so I'd get a better visual of what the ProTrack thinks is happening and when. Before second guessing yourself based upon the numbers, look into obtaining JumpTrack, or using a friend's to view one of your recent dives (last 10 have full data).

You can also try this experiment: do a 2way with an experienced jumper, and pull in place. Then repeat the dive, but this time you track and the other pulls in place -- use an experienced jumper so he can ensure adequate separation as well as evaluate your jump. Compare your max speed numbers with and without the track.


a97virago  (A 43434)

Sep 1, 2004, 11:06 AM
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Re: [daveb] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for responding with some suggestions.

Just to clarify, I DO own the Jumptrack software. That's how I know that my max speed is at the start of my track. When I get home, I'll post the graph if anyone is interested.

I just know that tracking well is yet another of our life-saving skills, and anything I can do to improve those is goal #1 for me!


GQ_jumper  (D 29397)

Sep 2, 2004, 3:55 PM
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Re: [a97virago] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

I used to have the same problem as you, every time i did a tracking dive i'd fall low. the biggest thing i did was learn to use my stomach to adjust my fall rate. when i go into a track now i suck my gut in as much as possible. and as mentioned before roll your shoulders forward and de-arch a little. last trick i learned is instead of pointing your toes bring your feet up it will create a little bit more lift. Keep in mind i'm a fairly new jumper so take my advice to an instructor and get their opinion first. But these techniques worked great for me. Also if you have booties on your jumpsuit. turn your feet out and epose the booties to the wind to give you more lift.

good luck with your trackin


skyhighkiy  (B License)

Sep 8, 2004, 9:15 AM
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Re: [a97virago] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

curious about the pro-track

I'm jumpin a neptune right now as an audible righ tnow but I'd like to get something like it on the wrist (or switch it to my wrist)

does the pro-track record max fall rates or do you need the software? (neptune records average and at certain altitutdes)

I don't really wanna purchase the software for my neptune so if I can just find another audible (or wrist mount) that's digital, besides the digitude, and records Max and Min fall rates, I'd be happy


Laytwaaaa


a97virago  (A 43434)

Sep 9, 2004, 8:32 AM
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Re: [skyhighkiy] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

The Pro-track, tracks Average fall rate for the first half of the dive, Average for the second have, overall average, and Max fall rate. These are all displayed on the pro-track without any software/hardware required.

If you want to see a graph of your dive, you need to purchase the Jumptrack (Software and cradle) and download the info from your Pro-track to your PC. It extends the learning by showing you at what point in the dive you were at what fall rates. For me, my max was at the begining of what I believe was my track-away.

Just an update, I took a couple of the tips, de-arching, sucking in my gut, and rolling my shoulders forward and this helped a lot! I'll keep working at it. But it certainly helped!


gus

Sep 15, 2004, 5:20 AM
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Re: [a97virago] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

Dude, it's difficult to really work on your position and control when you've only got the bottom 1 or 2k of your dive to practice. Get yourself on some dedicated tracking dives and your skills will increase drastically. You may get smoked on the first few jumps but soon enough you'll be right there with the rabbit and you'll be amazed at how bad your tracking used to be.

Tracking is a survival skill and is well worth practicing.

Gus


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 20, 2004, 1:29 PM
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Re: [gus] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Dude, it's difficult to really work on your position and control when you've only got the bottom 1 or 2k of your dive to practice. Get yourself on some dedicated tracking dives and your skills will increase drastically. You may get smoked on the first few jumps but soon enough you'll be right there with the rabbit and you'll be amazed at how bad your tracking used to be.

Tracking is a survival skill and is well worth practicing.

Gus

My experience with organized tracking dives is that the trackers aren't really maxed out, and the track is far from a flat track. And this is deliberate, because flying formation and docking becomes more difficult the closer you are to the limit.


gus

Sep 22, 2004, 1:34 AM
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Re: [kallend] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My experience with organized tracking dives is that the trackers aren't really maxed out, and the track is far from a flat track.

Then you're on the wrong tracking dives Tongue. But you're right, most tracking dives are like that. But the point is that it gives you something to track relative to and from there you can see how your body position changes your vector.

Gus


skyhighkiy  (B License)

Sep 30, 2004, 5:30 PM
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Re: [a97virago] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

oh, by the way, I just thought of this, earlier on you talked about "converting some of your vertical in to horizontal.

BAsics physics principal is that horizontal and vertical motion are completely independent of each other, that is, neither one affects the other, at all. so look at how your body is accepting wind-resistance along the "Y" coordinate. Now, if you're talking about the addition of the two vectors in to a slanted magnitude, yes, that will be affected. when you go in to a track, you're angling downward a bit, so you should pick up veritical speed because less of your body is accepting the wind-resistance directly. L8er


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 30, 2004, 7:05 PM
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Re: [skyhighkiy] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
oh, by the way, I just thought of this, earlier on you talked about "converting some of your vertical in to horizontal.

BAsics physics principal is that horizontal and vertical motion are completely independent of each other, that is, neither one affects the other, at all. so look at how your body is accepting wind-resistance along the "Y" coordinate. Now, if you're talking about the addition of the two vectors in to a slanted magnitude, yes, that will be affected. when you go in to a track, you're angling downward a bit, so you should pick up veritical speed because less of your body is accepting the wind-resistance directly. L8er

Incorrect.


gingerjo  (C 102498)

Oct 1, 2004, 5:59 AM
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Re: [gus] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

hey, i also had this problem of having a high max speed (still fairly high), like you i was worried that i wouldn't get the separation i needed at the end of a dive.
i summoned up the courage (think i was nervous about having my crap track exposed to the world) and went on a baby tracking dive. we have a couple of guys at our dz who are really good at being the rabbit and after talking to one of them, he gave us a brief of how to go on - awareness of where the others are on the dive, how to control fall rates etc, we went on a mini tracking dive (along with my other team mates) i actually did a lot better than i thought i would, i wasn't that close to the rabbit but i didn't sink out like i thought i would and it was really good to be able to spend some 'quality time' on my tracking instead of just the last few seconds of a four-way. i got the piss ripped out of me for going on a trakcing dive wearing booties but i explained that i was on the dive to improve my tracking for four-way and not to go chasing the rabbit.
so go and grab someone experienced in tracking dives, get them to wear a camera if possible and get up there.
Good luck and sunny blues


Reginald  (D 28162)

Oct 1, 2004, 8:17 AM
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Re: [gingerjo] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i got the piss ripped out of me for going on a trakcing dive wearing booties

Why? Was it good natured r serious? I tell the FFer's, who tend to run the traking dives at my DZ, that they should get booties too! It's never been an issue.


AMax

Oct 1, 2004, 9:20 AM
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Re: [skyhighkiy] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
when you go in to a track, you're angling downward a bit, so you should pick up veritical speed because less of your body is accepting the wind-resistance directly.

Just to add Kallend's responce.
In a good flat track you increase the airspeed and therefore lift increases too. This means that the rate of vertical descent decreases. A good tracker leaving
the formations always floats on the base. If you have a protrack, try flat tracking the entire skydive and then compare the average freefall speeds of tracking and normal dive.


chachi  (B 3406)

Oct 1, 2004, 10:13 AM
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Re: [skyhighkiy] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
oh, by the way, I just thought of this, earlier on you talked about "converting some of your vertical in to horizontal.

BAsics physics principal is that horizontal and vertical motion are completely independent of each other, that is, neither one affects the other, at all. so look at how your body is accepting wind-resistance along the "Y" coordinate. Now, if you're talking about the addition of the two vectors in to a slanted magnitude, yes, that will be affected. when you go in to a track, you're angling downward a bit, so you should pick up veritical speed because less of your body is accepting the wind-resistance directly. L8er

People with 75 jumps should listen and not teach. You show yourself to know very very little when you talk out of your ass. I am not meaning to be a dick, just simply let you know you are wrong but I see you posting in many forums without really having a grasp.

~Chachi


pilotdave  (D License)

Oct 1, 2004, 10:35 AM
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Re: [skyhighkiy] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

This is one of the problems of high school physics... it leads you to far oversimplify real world problems.

Without air resistance, yes, vertical and horizontal motion are independent. But we fall through the atmosphere. I mean clearly you can see that the fallrate of an airplane has a whole lot to do with horizontal speed Tongue. Same applies to a person.

Other people believe that all objects will fall at the same speed no matter what, because that's what they learned in school.

Low speed aerodynamics is very complicated stuff (supersonic aerodynamics is simpler in some ways), but you just gotta think reasonably about this stuff.

Dave


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Oct 1, 2004, 11:36 AM
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Re: [chachi] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

I think he has 5 more forums to pretend to be an expert in. Unless he speaks a foreign language and has a disibility - then the count is 8.


However, I do appreciate a newbie asking questions and posting his own theories. And he has been pretty gracious when more experienced people correct him. It's an odd mix of 100 jump wonder and genuine curiosity. I'm not yet sure what to make of it except I hope he doesn't get hurt before figuring it out.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 2, 2004, 10:46 PM
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Re: [rehmwa] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think he has 5 more forums to pretend to be an expert in. Unless he speaks a foreign language and has a disibility - then the count is 8.


However, I do appreciate a newbie asking questions and posting his own theories. And he has been pretty gracious when more experienced people correct him. It's an odd mix of 100 jump wonder and genuine curiosity. I'm not yet sure what to make of it except I hope he doesn't get hurt before figuring it out.

I think Skyhighkiy and Mattjw916 were born twins and separated at birth.Crazy


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Oct 3, 2004, 6:43 AM
Post #24 of 25 (1598 views)
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Re: [skyhighkiy] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
BAsics physics principal is that horizontal and vertical motion are completely independent of each other, that is, neither one affects the other, at all. so look at how your body is accepting wind-resistance along the "Y" coordinate. Now, if you're talking about the addition of the two vectors in to a slanted magnitude, yes, that will be affected. when you go in to a track, you're angling downward a bit, so you should pick up veritical speed because less of your body is accepting the wind-resistance directly. L8er

So, you took physics . . . right?

Think about potential and kinetic energy coupled with aerodynamics.

In fact, think about that on every jump and during every approach to landing.


shodan75

Oct 30, 2004, 10:39 PM
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Re: [WingnutOrange] Tracking question [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed.........This is what I was taught and it works like a charm.
Before when I thought I was tracking, I was actually in a dive. Lots of vertical sep. but not much horizontal sep.

Takes a bit of getting used to if you been doing it the other way.

Good luck



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