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wsinsel  (D 21183)

Sep 29, 2004, 12:20 PM
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Students Can't Post

  Should students always be supervised by a coach or instructor? Is there any "fudge factor" in your opinions, where students could be trained by non-rated individuals?(freefall) I just want to know your opinions. I know what the SIM says, I want opinions.


TALONSKY  (D License)

Sep 29, 2004, 12:30 PM
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Re: [wsinsel] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

 I think all students should be trained by qualified instructors. While other jumpers may know how to do an activity it is another to teach it. Instructors have probably revised several time how they teach items ( I know I have) as to not have any miscommunications about it.
I have seen unqualified people teaching and what they leave out alot of very important things that they flat out did not think about because to them it was a given.
Kirk


(This post was edited by TALONSKY on Sep 29, 2004, 12:50 PM)


tombuch  (D 8514)

Sep 29, 2004, 12:46 PM
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Re: [wsinsel] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

The SIM allows for an unrated jumper to serve in a Coach capacity if approved by an S&TA. I agree with that approach. Most training should be conducted by rated instructors and coaches, but there are certainly some very qualified and experienced jumpers who never earned the rating who can do quite well with students after the student has been cleared through the lower levels that do/should require an AFF instructor. In any case, an instructor should ALWAYS supervise the training process to at least some degree, as required by the BSR's.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 29, 2004, 7:25 PM
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Re: [wsinsel] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

If your jumps are at a USPA drop zone, students that have been released from an AFF Instructors supervision may only do solo jumps or jump with a qualified person that hold a USPA coach rating.

Be Safe

-


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 29, 2004, 7:27 PM
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Re: [tombuch] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The SIM allows for an unrated jumper to serve in a Coach capacity if approved by an S&TA.

I couldn't find that part?

Please direct me to it?

Thanks
Ed


dropzonefool

Sep 29, 2004, 8:00 PM
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Re: [wsinsel] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

Case #1...Beach jump, jumper with 1200 jumps and NO instructional raiting what so ever decided they need more jumpers to fly the load and decided to take a S/L CAT D for a Two way from 13.5K. There is a reason S/L Students only get 15-30 seconds in this catogory. So they dont get in trouble. And of course the student got into a flat spin and had to pull that way, landed off about 30 ft in the surf....no water training and ofcourse on flotation device. the student lived to jump again.

Case #2 ..... A uspa coach ( the only one present at the DZ that day) Decided to take a CAT D student on a jump. first 15 second delay (coach only for F,G,H). On the flight up he decided to go all the way up to Alt (10K-182) scence it was the last jump of the day. Student got out of control, lost alt. awarness, and the Coach chased him down below 2K to pull for him (AFF-I only)....result two out for the student....student lived to jump another day.
Case #3. Watched a Coach talk a student down on raido, sent the student to the far downwind side of the airfield before telling the student to turn it the wind about 1000'. The winds that day were gusting to 20, and the student got blown off the airfield and in to a tree. Student lived to jump again.
Conclusion... I am glad I had a chance to wittness these, they have made me a better Instructor, I will never take a student beyond there abilities.


(This post was edited by dropzonefool on Sep 29, 2004, 8:26 PM)


tombuch  (D 8514)

Sep 29, 2004, 8:34 PM
Post #7 of 28 (2649 views)
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Re: [bodypilot1] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I couldn't find that part?

Please direct me to it?

BSR E(4)(c) says:
All students must jump under the direct supervision of an appropriately rated USPA instructor until demonstrating stability and heading control prior to and within five seconds after initiating two intentional disorienting maneuvers involving back to eart presentations That section can only be wavived by the Executive Committee.

BSR E(6) says:
a) All student freefall training for group freefall jumps must be conducted by a USPA coach under the supervision of a USPA instructor.
b) All students engaging in group freefall jumps must be accompanied by a USPA coach until the student has obtained a USPA A license
This entire section may be waived by an S&TA.

So, it is my understanding that until demonstrating recovery from loss of stability a student must be handled by an instructor. Once cleared by an instructor, training can be conducted by a coach, and a non-coach may be approved for that part of the training by an S&TA under waiver authorization.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 29, 2004, 9:18 PM
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Re: [tombuch] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This entire section may be waived by an S&TA.

I do not see this in the SIM.
This is what it reads.

Quote:
BSR 6. Students training for group freefall


a. All student freefall training for group freefall jumps must be conducted by a USPA Coach under the supervision of a USPA Instructor.

b. All students engaging in group freefall jumps must be accompanied by a USPA Coach until the student has obtained a USPA A license.


Is this something NEW added to the SIM or must I be missing something?
Or did you just ad this part?

-


tombuch  (D 8514)

Sep 29, 2004, 9:31 PM
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Re: [bodypilot1] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This entire section may be waived by an S&TA.

I do not see this in the SIM.

Is this something NEW added to the SIM or must I be missing something?
Or did you just ad this part?

-
There is an "S" enclosed in brackets. That means the specific BSR can be waived by the S&TA. See the next page (Section 2-2) in the SIM that explains waivers.


dubbayab

Sep 29, 2004, 9:32 PM
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Re: [wsinsel] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

The latest edition I have with me is a 2001. and in it states what you have said with (except Tandem I)
I think this is because tandems were considered Expermintal untill of late. Now any Instructor can jump with any student as long as that student has been cleared for freefall self supervision by an appropatle raited Instructor in the students field of training.

ie....Aff with 21 jumps can make a freefall with a Tandem Instructor, and actually do an A license cherck dive with a IAD Instructor.

I'll go to the USPA web sight and look it up for a current copy, I do not believe TOM would make it up.

As of late the SIM has been revised every year, and I believe they may have granted this power of excutive to S&TA.


dubbayab

Sep 29, 2004, 9:43 PM
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Re: [dubbayab] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep, Tom is right. If you go back and re read the section 2-6 you will see (s) which means an S&ta or an I/E may waiver it.


(This post was edited by dubbayab on Sep 29, 2004, 9:44 PM)


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 29, 2004, 9:47 PM
Post #12 of 28 (2625 views)
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Re: [tombuch] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank Tom.

Quote:
2. Since these standards may be an unnecessary burden in some individual circumstances, USPA provides procedures to document exceptions, known as waivers to the BSRs.

I guess what it's saying is that, if there is not a coach or an AFF rated Instructor on the DZ working the S&TA may "file a waiver" and let an experienced non rated jumper jump with the student.

-


tombuch  (D 8514)

Sep 29, 2004, 10:52 PM
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Re: [bodypilot1] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I guess what it's saying is that, if there is not a coach or an AFF rated Instructor on the DZ working the S&TA may "file a waiver" and let an experienced non rated jumper jump with the student.

-

Well, I think the intent is to allow an S&TA to identify a jumper with experience who chooses not to get a rating, and designate that person as approved for specific levels of instruction. I don't think the intent is to suddenly "deputize" a jumper because there is a student on the DZ, but no available instructor.

For example, I may choose to allow a former instructor with a long expired rating to jump with students, after the students have demonstrated recovery from instability. Or, there may be a very experienced four way coach who is interested in getting involved in the student program, and I may approve him to jump with advanced students until he is able to get an instructional rating. In any case, I would want to sit down with the candidate and discuss modern student training and the DZ program, and some specific tactics for the training levels involved. I would not use the waiver authority for just any experienced jumper who "happened" to be available at the needed time.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 29, 2004, 11:05 PM
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Re: [tombuch] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I may choose to allow a former instructor with a long expired rating to jump with students, after the students have demonstrated recovery from instability. Or, there may be a very experienced four way coach who is interested in getting involved in the student program, and I may approve him to jump with advanced students until he is able to get an instructional rating. In any case, I would want to sit down with the candidate and discuss modern student training and the DZ program, and some specific tactics for the training levels involved.

I guess if you wanted to take the work away for the current Instructors that are working at the time, that would be a choice....

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bch7773  (C License)

Sep 30, 2004, 12:27 AM
Post #15 of 28 (2609 views)
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Re: [tombuch] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
BSR E(6) says:
a) All student freefall training for group freefall jumps must be conducted by a USPA coach under the supervision of a USPA instructor.
b) All students engaging in group freefall jumps must be accompanied by a USPA coach until the student has obtained a USPA A license
This entire section may be waived by an S&TA.

so a student could do an 8 way with 1 coach and the rest are all non-coaches or non-instructors? is this the correct way of reading the BSRs?


obelixtim  (D 84)

Sep 30, 2004, 5:01 AM
Post #16 of 28 (2590 views)
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Re: [wsinsel] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

 As an Instructor/examiner, one of my jobs is to train new instructors.....these individuals are what I would call "potential instructors".

If I have knowledge of this "Potential Instructor", his ability, experience, in depth knowledge..etc...etc....and he has been properly briefed by me...then I have no problem with them working with my students...usually one to one at first...with a more experienced student and then with fairly simple stuff to start with......

Of course I will be keeping a pretty close eye on him until I have confidence in him to do the right thing......then I will allow him to get more involved as his experience and confidence grows....under my direct supervision of course.....

The best way for someone to learn is to have hands on experience.....and I find these candidates evolve into much better instructors......

I have seen new instructors get their rating..then go straight in at the deep end and make many mistakes as they gain experience...not a good idea if they don't have a mentor keeping an eye on them.....and not a good idea with students who are relying on the instructor for their lives....

So I have no problem with people who are non rated helping out...but they need to be under supervision.....

The students of today are the instructors of tomorrow.......and every student is a potential instructor of the future....Todays generation of instructor arn't gonna be around for ever......and need to pass their experience on......

Simple common sense, I'd say......


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Sep 30, 2004, 5:03 AM)


tombuch  (D 8514)

Sep 30, 2004, 6:00 AM
Post #17 of 28 (2577 views)
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Re: [bch7773] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

so a student could do an 8 way with 1 coach and the rest are all non-coaches or non-instructors? is this the correct way of reading the BSRs?
In reply to:

Technically, perhaps, but not really. Remember the decision to allow a non-rated instructor to jump with a student requires the approval and best judgment of the S&TA, so the S&TA should be watching out for the students safety interest. What you are proposing doesn't make any sense.

USPA actually provides specific guidance about the topic in SIM section 6-1-Group Freefall (page 119 in the 2004 SIM). See B(3): Initial training should begin with no more than two jumpers-the trainee and a USPA instructional rating holder. The specific training outlines for group freefall are included in the ISP categories G and H.

The entire USPA program is designed to safely train student with a nationally recognized standard. Deviations from that standard are allowed in some cases, but they need to be justified by safety and training concerns.

Once you get beyond the mandatory parts of the BSR's, an instructor or S&TA should use good judgment. I always assume something may go wrong, so I make sure that every decision I make can be justified in terms of student safety, and can be easily defended if there is a problem.

When I look at your proposal (rhetorical, I hope), I ask myself what would happen if the overloaded student and a non-rated jumper had a canopy collision, or if the student lost stability and dumped at 9,000 feet into another approaching jumper. Could I tell the surviving parents, children, friends and family, that the jump was reasonable? Is allowing such a jump something that another reasonable person with appropriate training would recommend? How would I justify my very clear deviation from published standards in the SIM?

When we think about students it's important to understand that they do not yet have the knowledge to analyze risk and offer an informed decision. It is really the instructors job to evaluate the risk of any specific jump plan, and to always error on the side of minimizing the risk, while still allowing for learning to take place.

One of the big differences between a well trained and experienced instructor and a regular jumper is the way they look at regulations and guidelines. A good instructor begins with an understanding that the guidelines are there to help both the student and instructor. Many experienced jumpers view the guidelines as a burden to be overcome through technical loopholes. A good S&TA will evaluate a non-jumper interested in working with students based on flying skill, but also based on judgment and understanding of a students limitations.


wsinsel  (D 21183)

Sep 30, 2004, 6:25 AM
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Re: [tombuch] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

  Now this is exactly as I see the regulations. Very good points Tom. The SIM is there to help us be absolutely sure that in the event of an incident that in court, we can show that we did follow the rules as published and did our utmost to maintain a reasonable level of safety. I can see that exact implementation of the rules for licensed skydivers can be and will be met with opposition. Students on the other hand don't know what's good or bad, right or wrong and in a court of law we need to show that we attemted to do the right thing.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Sep 30, 2004, 7:54 AM
Post #19 of 28 (2548 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

Tim and Tom,
While both of you have compelling arguments for allowing non-rated people to assist with training under certain circumstances, I don't believe either of you would simply allow, without any sort of "check dive", what the original poster proposes in the other thread they started (also called "students"). There is a big difference between allowing a very qualified potential instructor to assist with CATs F,G,and H (under supervision of the CI/S&TA) and letting a person's unrated freeflyer boyfriend train them just to save money.

As a former school manager and S&TA, I can tell you that I would not allow some un-tested, never-rated individual to be working with any of my students. Now, if there were some compelling reason why a bonafide "potential instructor" simply had not been able to make it to a course, then I would take him/her up and do the two coach eval dives with them and, if they passed, I would probably waiver them and allow them to work.

Chuck


tombuch  (D 8514)

Sep 30, 2004, 8:25 AM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
While both of you have compelling arguments for allowing non-rated people to assist with training under certain circumstances, I don't believe either of you would simply allow, without any sort of "check dive", what the original poster proposes in the other thread they started (also called "students").

Correct. The key is judgment, and what is proposed in the other thread is flat out wrong.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Sep 30, 2004, 9:30 AM
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Re: [tombuch] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In Canada, a student must be under the direct supervision of a PFF or IAD instructor until he/she earns a Solo Certificate (minimum 10 jumps) then they are allowed to jump alone or with a CSPA Coach until they earn their A Certificate (minimum 25 jumps).
We are serious about only allowing junior jumpers to do freefall formations with Coach 2s.
Our manifest is set up to encourage full employment of Instructor Bs. Once they (IBs) are fully employed, they can hand off students to more junior coaches, but an Instructor must still approve the dive flow.

Don't waste my time asking me if you can jump with your boyfriend until AFTER a Coach 2 has approved you for freefall formations bigger than 2 way.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Sep 30, 2004, 9:36 AM
Post #22 of 28 (2517 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

How about allowing someone with expired ratings do one off jumps while the rest of the staff is way over worked?

I've seen pre-A licence jumpers have to do weekend after weekend of solos since there are no rated coaches, but there are 2 or 3 expired rating holders on the ground that could do the work just fine (and would be legal if they wanted to do Tandems again)

The way I've seen things work is now that you need the coach rating to get to be TI is that if you ever want to give up your TI rating you usually have to give up your Coach rating too.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 30, 2004, 9:59 AM
Post #23 of 28 (2508 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How about allowing someone with expired ratings do one off jumps while the rest of the staff is way over worked?

I've seen pre-A licence jumpers have to do weekend after weekend of solos since there are no rated coaches, but there are 2 or 3 expired rating holders on the ground that could do the work just fine (and would be legal if they wanted to do Tandems again)

The way I've seen things work is now that you need the coach rating to get to be TI is that if you ever want to give up your TI rating you usually have to give up your Coach rating too.

IMO, if the skydiver that has been too lazy or uninterested in keeping his rating current, why should they all the sudden be ok to take the student on jump?

Staying focused and current to what the student needs is a big part of holding a rating, and someone that is not going to take the time or effort to keep something as simple as a coach rating has no business jumping with a student. Mad

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Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Sep 30, 2004, 10:04 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say in that case it would depend on what the jumper has been doing since his rating lapsed. If he has been doing a lot of sequential RW with vertical moves, swooping to docks on bigways, etc, then I would probably not hesitate to let that very-current skydiver take up some slack (edited to add: only if we were REALLY swamped). Still, it's pretty dumb to let your entry-level coach rating expire. I would not let anyone with an expired rating and no "relevant" current skydiving experience touch a student though, regardless of school overload.

Chuck


(This post was edited by SkymonkeyONE on Sep 30, 2004, 10:06 AM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Sep 30, 2004, 10:32 AM
Post #25 of 28 (2497 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Students [In reply to] Can't Post

 "Direct supervision" means exactly that...I am there at all times with them....

I am not limiting my scenario to AFF only though.....SL certainly offers more control over supervision......

My "Potential Instructors" would also have to have had plenty of practise with intermediate level jumpers and proved to me their credentials over quite a period of time.....

With AFF you stick to the requirements totally.....just as you wouldn't allow an unrated person to do a tandem jump as a TI.

No way would I let a non rated person deal with my students independantly.

If the student was basically already through the programme and reasonably independant........then I think if I was happy with things I wouldn't have a problem.......

I've seen a number of people with ratings that they've held for years who are total dolts......sad to say they are out there still doing damage, so a rating doesn't always equate with competance..........


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