Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
'inbetween' canopy

 

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TEric  (C 5240)

Sep 15, 2004, 6:03 PM
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'inbetween' canopy Can't Post

I've been jumping a Stiletto at 1.35 for a number of jumps now, and love to fly it, except for a) the openings and b) the 'positive' recovery arc. I would like to try something that dives for a little longer, without getting into a crossbraced canopy as of yet. The canopies that I can think of that fall into this catagory are the Crossfire 2, Samurai, Velocity. Are there others?
thanks


Yoshi  (D 26770)

Sep 15, 2004, 6:09 PM
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Re: [TEric] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

there are a few more out there.. the nitro/ blade, Katana, (the velocity is crossbraced), but the vengance isnt...

I would demo a few to see what you like... of course my opinion is the crossfire 2... dives very long, and is an all around sweet canopy...especially if you like soft sweet snivelly openings..
-yoshi


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Sep 15, 2004, 6:16 PM
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Re: [TEric] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I've been jumping a Stiletto at 1.35 for a number of jumps now,


what's up, what is a number of jumps?? 245 jumps, no offence, isn't really a whole lot. and maybe most where under the stiletto, but still.


anyway, back to you question.





Quote:
I would like to try something that dives for a little longer, without getting into a crossbraced canopy as of yet. The canopies that I can think of that fall into this catagory are the Crossfire 2, Samurai, Velocity. Are there others?


well, first the velocity is crossedbraces.

you have the
crossfire 1 and 2
katana
vengence
samuri
blade
rage (the on from paratec)



all of these dive more than the stiletto, but also all of these canopies are a bit out of your jump number range (and the stiletto is really right up there with them).

i know i sound like an asswhole, but stick with the stiletto for a while, learn it well. i know a lot of people who can swoop the shit out of a stiletto.

as far as the openings go, make sure it is still in trim, if you get bad openings i'll be willing to bet it's out of trim, or your pulling funny Wink


later


ManBird  (D 28001)

Sep 15, 2004, 6:21 PM
Post #4 of 28 (2278 views)
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Re: [TEric] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Katana. Especially if you're flying a Stiletto right now. It will have everything you like about a Stiletto, improvements upon those aspects, and a LONG recovery arc. Beware -- the sucker dives. Demo one and do high pulls.

Edit: I just noticed your jump numbers. Try tripling those before moving on to a Katana.

I also just noticed this:
Quote:
b) the 'positive' recovery arc
I know someone who thought getting a canopy with a longer recovery arc would fix his various turn altitude issues, so he downsized and had a hardass PLF (parachute lands first).

Seriously, do another 500 - 600 jumps on your current canopy before moving to anything in the class of canopies you are mentioning. A Stiletto is already too aggressive for 245 jumps.


(This post was edited by ManBird on Sep 15, 2004, 7:11 PM)


Spizzzarko

Sep 15, 2004, 10:24 PM
Post #5 of 28 (2232 views)
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Re: [TEric] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Dude,

Why do you want to change canopy's? No, really why do you want to change canopy's? Don't say it's because of it's "short recovery arc"... Can you say you have the stilletto wrung out to it's full potential? I seriously don't think so. I cant tell you how many people I see who down size or change wings because they just learned how to land their current canopy without getting hurt. Why don't you post video of you landing your stilletto that will impress us and then we will not give you a ration of shit about changing wings. So untill then, go and fly your 12 year old technology stilletto, and learn a few things on it. Then come and talk to us.

What is going on here? is it the end of the season and everyone is feeling super current, so they need to buy a canopy 100 jumps to small for them? Hell, from the posts in this forum lately, you would think, that if we are not teaching those just off AFF how to swoop, then we are short changing them.
GO BACK TO THE BASICS PEOPLE!!! W T F OVER?

Rant completed.MadMadMadMadMadMad


AggieDave  (D License)

Sep 15, 2004, 10:29 PM
Post #6 of 28 (2229 views)
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Re: [TEric] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Good canopy pilots swoop the ever living piss out of stilettos larger then yours.

Don't fix canopy difficulties by changing canopies, fix them by getting good coaching from a qualified coach (i.e. not your 300 jump jump-buddy)..


koz2000  (D License)

Sep 15, 2004, 10:43 PM
Post #7 of 28 (2226 views)
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'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember this thread.

Navigator Swoop


Kris  (D 26033)

Sep 15, 2004, 10:46 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Bingo, AggieDave. I've surfed over 100' on my Stiletto 190 at 1.35.

I think the vid of Scott Miller swooping the piss out of that Navigator says it all.Cool


AggieDave  (D License)

Sep 15, 2004, 11:03 PM
Post #9 of 28 (2211 views)
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Re: [Kris] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think the vid of Scott Miller swooping the piss out of that Navigator says it all.

Yeah, that kinda kills the "I don't swoop well due to my canopy" crap.


Although just about every HP canopy pilot at some point has said "I've reached the limit of this canopy's ability and I need something else" it takes more then 50 jumps on a canopy. It sure as hell takes more then 50 jumps total as a jumper. Hell, I've got a couple hundred on my XF2 and I don't feel I'm anywhere even near ready to think about another canopy yet. I'm just now starting to figure out how to dial in the approach with this canopy, much less totally have it ragged out.


chrisgr  (C License)

Sep 16, 2004, 5:11 AM
Post #10 of 28 (2149 views)
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Re: [skygod7777] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

What would you recommend for someone like myself who has 700 jumps on a Sabre 150 and over 300 jumps on a Stiletto 150 (1.35 w/l)? After flying the crap out of both, Im ready for something new.

The flat glide of the Stiletto is very important to me, but I also LOVE to surf, so I am pleased with what I have heard and read about the Samurai. The Sam136 looks like a good progression.

Your thoughts?


Martini  (D 23756)

Sep 16, 2004, 6:21 AM
Post #11 of 28 (2127 views)
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Re: [TEric] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like you need a lineset. It will improve your openings and add length to your swoop. Stilettos rock. At least check your brakeline length, too short and openings get trashy and the recovery arc gets way shorter. So does swoop length.
Quote:
and love to fly it, except for a) the openings and b) the 'positive' recovery arc.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Sep 16, 2004, 8:15 AM
Post #12 of 28 (2090 views)
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Re: [TEric] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

A: who sold you a Stilleto at that experience level?
B: since you already have the canopy, I can tell you that you don't have any business buying anything smaller or faster for quite some time. There is no way in the world that you could have possibly gotten anywhere near the limits of that parachute with your jump numbers/experience.

Chuck


twnsnd  (D 25389)

Sep 16, 2004, 2:22 PM
Post #13 of 28 (2006 views)
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Re: [TEric] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
without getting into a crossbraced canopy as of yet. The canopies that I can think of that fall into this catagory are the Crossfire 2, Samurai, Velocity.

BZZZZZZZ! Try again. By putting the Velo on that list you just dumped your credibility.


chrisgr  (C License)

Sep 16, 2004, 2:44 PM
Post #14 of 28 (1994 views)
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Re: [TEric] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Keep flying the Stiletto and get coaching -- perhaps talk with your DZ's local pro's and/or the S&TA.

Learn as much as you can at a conservative w/l! It might be ok for you to continue on the Stiletto, but do NOT downsize now.

I have had a LOT of fun on my Sabre 150 and Stiletto 150. I started getting good swoops from the Sabre a couple of years ago ... and then put another 350 jumps on it before even switching to the Stiletto!

Fly your wing!


TEric  (C 5240)

Sep 16, 2004, 7:00 PM
Post #15 of 28 (1951 views)
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Re: [ManBird] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

ManBird,

I also just noticed this:
Quote:
b) the 'positive' recovery arc
I know someone who thought getting a canopy with a longer recovery arc would fix his various turn altitude issues, so he downsized and had a hardass PLF (parachute lands first).

This is exactly my issue! Getting my 270 starting altitude just right seems be more like gambling than anything else. A little too high, and I plan out early, a little too low and I let off after less than 270 degress, resulting in crosswind landings. By the way, I jump at a small cessna DZ where landing traffic is easily avoided by getting down early or hanging until last - so please don't assume that I am getting in peoples way. If there is any chance of that I will abort and land with a normal pattern. I understand from these posts that downsizing or changing to a more agressive canopy would be a poor choice at this time, so let's change the thread to "what can I do, once I have initiated my turn, and realize that I am too high or too low?" If I can tell right away that I've initiated too low, I can drop the front riser and switch to a toggle turn, or even a flat turn if the situation warrents. I am unclear as to what I can do if I notice early that I am too high (after initiation) I've tried getting on the other front riser while in the turn, but that seems to actually slow down the rate of descent (dives more in a turn than in double fronts, which does make sense)
Any tips are appreciated, and your opinions are welcome.


Jimbo  (D License)

Sep 16, 2004, 7:33 PM
Post #16 of 28 (1938 views)
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Re: [TEric] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

 
A) Get a qualified canopy coach at your DZ to take you under his wing.

B) Attend a canopy control course.

C) Buy and read Brian Germain's new book, The Canopy and Its Pilot.

D) Jump, a lot. Practice makes perfect.

-
Jim


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Sep 16, 2004, 7:57 PM
Post #17 of 28 (1929 views)
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Re: [Jimbo] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

E) Don't die.


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Sep 16, 2004, 8:00 PM
Post #18 of 28 (1927 views)
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Re: [TEric] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am unclear as to what I can do if I notice early that I am too high

If you are unable to correct being too high by carving a longer radius turn, then safely land and mark it up as a high turn. Get up there in the sky and try to do better next time.

Recently I've been trying to dial in my 270s into some sort of swoop course, where the canopy recovers above the ground with no toggle input whatsoever. And lately I've been coming out high more often than not (I'd say about 65% too high, 25% just right and 10% where I've gone low, but not dangerously low). It's frustrating. But practice makes perfect. And I am seeing slow improvement. Plus it's nothing that 10000 jumps can't fix either. Patience grass hopper ...

Hmmm ... I just looked at your profile ... more importantly at your profession ... a scaffolder ... Hmmm ... how high do you build and do you need an assistant to get that last layer of the scaffold errected. Wink


(This post was edited by CanuckInUSA on Sep 16, 2004, 8:26 PM)


Spizzzarko

Sep 16, 2004, 9:27 PM
Post #19 of 28 (1904 views)
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Re: [TEric] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Dude,

If your having problems with not know what to do about initiating a turn to high, then you probably are doing to much of a turn. GO BACK to 90's, and practice your turns a litle high (altitude wise, not pot wise) and work on muscleing the canopy down. You should beable to hit your turn altitude dead on before upgrading your turn. Do you see what I mean?


chrisgr  (C License)

Sep 17, 2004, 2:45 AM
Post #20 of 28 (1869 views)
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Re: [TEric] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

A 270 turn at our wingloading (1.35) under a Stiletto can be difficult ... and potentially dangerous. I get better performance from my Stil150 using a 180 turn. Trying to keep the speed through the entire 270 is tough as the riser pressure builds and I am more comfortable setting up for a 180 ... even after more than 300 jumps on the Stiletto.

When I was trying 270's, I would start the turn slowly, but then found the riser pressure to build too much during the later part of the dive. If the canopy planed out too high, I could do pull-ups in the dive loops and get no further dive from the canopy. If I tried to speed up the initial part of the turn, I began to get more inconsistent results.

When I went back to slower 180's, my consistency increased and the swoops got longer.

My Stil150 responds much better to a SLOWER turn rate. You may find the same on yours under the similar loading. You have an opportunity now to try something very helpful ...

Go back to 90's and practice up high. Think about the behavior of the canopy as you turn at different RATES. Consider the difference in the dive when you turn faster or slower. When you find a comfortable turn rate at 90 degrees, try landing it.

Slow and smooooooth.


ramon  (D 26115)

Sep 17, 2004, 6:18 AM
Post #21 of 28 (1834 views)
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Re: [TEric] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

270s can be difficult to dial in if you are trying to reach max speed and be accurate (i.e. swoop in traffic or over a target).

I would go back to 180s until you have your accuracy and turn altitude dialed in so that it is second nature.

P.S. at about 1000 jumps I started to go to 270s (loaded at 2.1) when I was qualifying for the PST. Jim Slaton told me to stick with 180s that he had won quite a few compeitions with 180s. I have only in the last 200 jumps begun using 270s.

ramon


TEric  (C 5240)

Sep 17, 2004, 1:12 PM
Post #22 of 28 (1775 views)
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Re: [twnsnd] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
without getting into a crossbraced canopy as of yet. The canopies that I can think of that fall into this catagory are the Crossfire 2, Samurai, Velocity.

BZZZZZZZ! Try again. By putting the Velo on that list you just dumped your credibility.

Oops -my mistake, I was thinking of the Vengence, not the Velo - my bad!


TEric  (C 5240)

Sep 17, 2004, 1:30 PM
Post #23 of 28 (1764 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I am unclear as to what I can do if I notice early that I am too high

Quote:
If you are unable to correct being too high by carving a longer radius turn, then safely land and mark it up as a high turn. Get up there in the sky
By this you mean to use less pressure on the front riser, thusly increase the amount of time until landing, correct? Unfortunately this seems to also decrease the rate of the dive as well - I surmise that this could work for a smallaltitude adjustment, but not for a large one.
Quote:
Recently I've been trying to dial in my 270s into some sort of swoop course, where the canopy recovers above the ground with no toggle input whatsoever. And lately I've been coming out high more often than not (I'd say about 65% too high, 25% just right and 10% where I've gone low, but not dangerously low). It's frustrating. But practice makes perfect. And I am seeing slow improvement. Plus it's nothing that 10000 jumps can't fix either. Patience grass hopper ...
I feel like I'm getting about 85% too high, 5% just right, and 10% too low. Frusterating is right. What is everyones opinion on using a digital alti to help determine initiation altitude? Right now I use only the ground, as I don't really trust my analog alti to that level of precision.

Quote:
Hmmm ... I just looked at your profile ... more importantly at your profession ... a scaffolder ... Hmmm ... how high do you build and do you need an assistant to get that last layer of the scaffold errected. Wink
Most of the work I do is in Toronto, and yes there have been a few occasions where I have built scaffolds that would be good for what you're thinking... I'll send you a pm if anything comes up. Right now I'm in Ottawa building bleachers for the gray cup, the top of the scaff is only 95' or so.


(This post was edited by TEric on Sep 17, 2004, 1:41 PM)


Samurai136  (D 26609)

Sep 17, 2004, 1:45 PM
Post #24 of 28 (1756 views)
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Re: [ramon] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In addition at 245 skydives, that translates roughly into 245 landings. Wink

It may take you the next 500 landings to really get it figured out. Most pilots who have 270's dialed in have thousands of jumps. They know their canopy's recovery arc so well they're never guessing if they're initiating the turn to high or low.

I'd stick w/ getting a 90 dialed in and then work your way up to a 180 a bit at a time. If you read Brian Germain's book he talks about why making a 270 or 360 can be less effective for a good swoop than a smaller turn for a longer period of time acheiving a shallow entry angle w/ max speed.Smile

Ken


TEric  (C 5240)

Sep 17, 2004, 1:51 PM
Post #25 of 28 (1752 views)
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Re: [Jimbo] 'inbetween' canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A) Get a qualified canopy coach at your DZ to take you under his wing.

B) Attend a canopy control course.

C) Buy and read Brian Germain's new book, The Canopy and Its Pilot.

D) Jump, a lot. Practice makes perfect.

-
Jim
A) Unfortunately at my home DZ, all experienced canopy pilots are either instructors or tandem masters. I do get feedback when one of them notices me landing which is great, but getting dedicated coaching is out of the question.
B) I would love too, and will keep an eye out for one in the area.
C) I'll order a copy now - I've heard good things
D) I jump as much as possible - land, pack, manifest all weekend long. Typically I get in between 7-14 per weekend depending on load volume. I've done 175 this season (since may), and probably wouldn't even be on the Stilleto if I wasn't that current.

p.s. I'm going to go visit mapquest and see how far crosskeys is from Ottawa. I think it's the closest big DZ, maybe a road trip is in order. (you might even have some canopy coaches there, hmm...)
Blues


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