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12 Deaths in one Month?

 

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pccoder  (A 43773)

Sep 15, 2004, 10:39 AM
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12 Deaths in one Month? Can't Post

What is going on this past August? That seems like an aweful large number. I am still a newbie, but have we had such large numbers the past few years in one month?

Is it time to stop and do a mandatory national safety day at all USPA dropzones?


Reginald  (D 28162)

Sep 15, 2004, 11:14 AM
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Re: [pccoder] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is it time to stop and do a mandatory national safety day at all USPA dropzones?

Will, this stop people from doing low hook turns without the proper skills?
Will this stop people from doing dumb stuff like landing a Mr. Bill?
Will this stop people from jumping intoxicated?


mattjw916  (D License)

Sep 15, 2004, 3:26 PM
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Re: [pccoder] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

you can't "teach" common sense... some people just lack it in sufficient quantities, period


hookitt  (D License)

Sep 15, 2004, 3:32 PM
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Re: [Reginald] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

After reading your posts, list the deaths. I'll put them in a category.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Sep 15, 2004, 3:59 PM
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Re: [pccoder] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

A very bad August came after what looks like a pretty good year from historical perspective. There does appear to be a summer concentration which wouldn't be too surprising.

In hazardous sports, it's my belief that you get these sorts of spikes because people respond to reading incident reports and change their behavior...for a while. And then start becoming a bit more casual about it. It's not a huge difference, but enough of a shift that you suddenly see a burst again.


Frenchy68  (A License)

Sep 15, 2004, 4:02 PM
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Re: [pccoder] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

What is going on this past August
Quote:
Pure speculation, as I do not have the data from previous years. But August may be the peak of skydiving season (except for the Southwest), all dropzones cranking... But what do I know.


jeffallen  (C 34831)

Sep 15, 2004, 6:37 PM
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Re: [pccoder] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

Although the equipment we use keeps getting safer and more reliable, it is the people that are using it that keep pushing the limits and hurting or killing themselves. I have not saw the list but I would bet most of the injuries are under good canopies, due to low turns(hookturns). You can not stop people from pushing it past their limits. I'm sure some would be considered accidents, but a lot of them could be avoided. This is a unforgiving sport, be careful! Just my opinion, Jeff


CornishChris  (C 102981)

Sep 15, 2004, 9:57 PM
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Re: [Reginald] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

How many people died landing a Mr Bill? Unimpressed


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 15, 2004, 11:14 PM
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Re: [Frenchy68] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

Fatalities for the month of August, world wide:

2004, August 11, year total 43
2003, August 8, year total 66
2002, August 6, year total 57
2001, August 11, year total 78 (bad year)
2000, August 7, year total 55
1999, August 5, year total 60
1998, August 6, year total 43
1997, August 6, year total 60

Sparky

Source


Frenchy68  (A License)

Sep 15, 2004, 11:18 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

The totals you are reflecting for each "August" exceed the total for the year...??? Am I missing someting?


AggieDave  (D License)

Sep 15, 2004, 11:20 PM
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Re: [Frenchy68] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Am I missing someting?

Yup. The number after "August" is the number of fatalities for the month, the number at the end is the number of fatalities total for the entire year.


Frenchy68  (A License)

Sep 15, 2004, 11:24 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yup. The number after "August" is the number of fatalities for the month, the number at the end is the number of fatalities total for the entire yea
Quote:
Oooops (gently pushing the glass of absinthe away...!). Then, with the exception of 1999, am I on to something???


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Sep 15, 2004, 11:24 PM
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Re: [Frenchy68] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you're mis-reading....

I interpreted it as:
Aug 2004, 11 fatalities, total for year 43

And so forth...


Eiley  (E 1165)

Sep 16, 2004, 12:06 AM
Post #14 of 44 (2320 views)
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Re: [Reginald] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Is it time to stop and do a mandatory national safety day at all USPA dropzones?

Will this stop people from doing dumb stuff like landing a Mr. Bill?

How did the Mr Bill landing contribute to the fatality statistics?


Liemberg  (Student)

Sep 16, 2004, 3:34 AM
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Re: [Eiley] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How did the Mr Bill landing contribute to the fatality statistics?

safety culture!

Though I wouldn't know if landing a Mr. Bill would fall into "unknown/undiscovered issues" or "known issues ignored" I most certainly feel that it has its place somewhere in the pyramid...

(BTW: this pyramid Tombuch talks about is pretty much standard stuff among safety theoretics.)


pccoder  (A 43773)

Sep 16, 2004, 7:06 AM
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Re: [mjosparky] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Fatalities for the month of August, world wide:

2004, August 11, year total 43
2003, August 8, year total 66
2002, August 6, year total 57
2001, August 11, year total 78 (bad year)
2000, August 7, year total 55
1999, August 5, year total 60
1998, August 6, year total 43
1997, August 6, year total 60

Sparky

Source

wow, i didn't realize we have had more deaths in August this year than any other year all the way back to 1997? considering how much the equipment has improved over that time period and how the number of jumps has remained relatively constant?? (not sure about that), it seems to me that safety was not an issue in many minds this summer.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Sep 16, 2004, 7:38 AM
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Re: [pccoder] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Fatalities for the month of August, world wide:

2004, August 11, year total 43
2003, August 8, year total 66
2002, August 6, year total 57
2001, August 11, year total 78 (bad year)
2000, August 7, year total 55
1999, August 5, year total 60
1998, August 6, year total 43
1997, August 6, year total 60

Sparky

Source

wow, i didn't realize we have had more deaths in August this year than any other year all the way back to 1997? considering how much the equipment has improved over that time period and how the number of jumps has remained relatively constant?? (not sure about that), it seems to me that safety was not an issue in many minds this summer.

I don't know where the above numbers come from, but suspect they are based on Internet reporting. If that is the case, the increase may be a reflection of greater access and use of the technology, rather than an actual increase in fatalities.

I just checked the official IPC year 2000 Safety Survey (produced by the International Parachuting Commission/FAI) and page 5 shows the following international fatalities:

1990 70
1991 74
1992 59
1993 101
1994 70
1995 64
1996 76
1997 78
1998 72
1999 60
2000 63

The IPC/FAI numbers and the numbers quoted in the original DZ.com post do not agree in the overlap years. Global numbers are tough to come by and will always be suspect due to different reporting standards, but FAI reports should be given at least some credibility. My preference is to discount the original numbers in this thread unless a specific and reliable source is identified.


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
Sep 16, 2004, 9:19 AM
Post #18 of 44 (2133 views)
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Re: [hookitt] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

From the dz.com database:



2004-08-18 Malaysia Reserve Problems Impact under malfunctioning reserve parachute
2004-08-12 Indonesia Malfunction Impact after malfunction
2004-08-22 France Other Hard landing, No flare
2004-08-19 France Landing Hard landing while making a low turn
2004-08-15 Spain Other Impact after failing to deploy a parachute
2004-08-15 France Collision Collision with jumper in freefall during opening
2004-08-10 United States Malfunction Impact under malfunctioning Tandem - Passenger
2004-08-10 United States Malfunction Impact under mulfunctioning Tandem
2004-08-21 United States Landing Hard landing while making a low turn
2004-08-22 United States Collision Cause of death unknown
2004-08-09 United States Landing Hard landing after toggle drop


Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

Sep 16, 2004, 11:12 AM
Post #19 of 44 (2078 views)
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Re: [pccoder] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

Boogie Season.

People jumping in unfamiliar places.
People partying too much.
People jumping unfamiliar gear.
People showing off for the bigger crowds.

It's no different this year than any other.

Watch out for the begining of Spring as well.


genoyamamoto  (Student)

Sep 16, 2004, 12:28 PM
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Re: [pccoder] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

Taking mjosparky's numbers for previous years, and assuming a 8-month World average skydiving season (is this ok?):

Year: August: Worldwide: Avg/month:
2003: 8: 66: 8.25
2002: 6: 57: 7.125
2001: 11: 78: 9.75
2000: 7: 55: 6.875
1999: 5: 60: 7.5
1998: 6: 43: 5.375
1997: 6: 60: 7.5


Totals: 49: 419: 52.375:


The statistics are small, but August seems like any other skydiving month of the year.


chopchop  (D 25001)

Sep 16, 2004, 12:38 PM
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Re: [genoyamamoto] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

nerd.. Tongue


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Sep 16, 2004, 2:23 PM
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Re: [pccoder] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

I suspect that the large numbers for August are statistical anomalies, and in themselves mean nothing. June and July had surprisingly few incidents, making this year overall consistent with last year, and the general trend over the last few years.

There may be some people who saw the relatively low number of incidents in the spring and early summer, and started taking more risks thinking the sport suddenly got safer. I'm skeptical though, and this theory is certainly impossible to either prove or disprove.

_Am


(This post was edited by AndyMan on Sep 16, 2004, 2:57 PM)


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Sep 16, 2004, 3:32 PM
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Re: [genoyamamoto] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Taking mjosparky's numbers for previous years, and assuming a 8-month World average skydiving season (is this ok?):

It makes your argument work, but it's quite an assumption. Quite a few of the big DZs operate year round and most of the ones in CA have tried to convince me that winter is a bigger season than summer for the fun jumpers, with the higher winds and temperatures taken away.

Disgarding my earlier theory about lulls and spikes, for those with a seasonal aspect August would be well into the season and everyone would have a few months of good times logged. That could also lead to jumpers rasing the risk threshhold a bit. In September a lot of them go back to school.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Sep 16, 2004, 3:48 PM
Post #24 of 44 (1975 views)
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Re: [tombuch] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

On this note... 15 years ago most people only knew about a fatality if it hit Parachutist or Skydiving. 10 years ago rec.skydiving would pick up a few more. 5 years ago DZ.com picked up a few more. A year ago or so the Incidents fourm was rolled out and provided a more public area to report on issues. There are more people reading the fourms which means more eyes to scout new articles and more people at DZ's to report fatalities.

The numbers have always been high, its just that only seeing those that happened locally to you tended to limit your view of the situation.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Sep 16, 2004, 3:52 PM
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Re: [genoyamamoto] 12 Deaths in one Month? [In reply to] Can't Post

Australia operates year-round. I'd be surprised if California and Florida didn't operate pretty much all the time too.

I wouldn't be particularly comfortable with any international numbers. I'd take USPA + BPA + APF + whomever else has a defined and reliable reporting system, and use those. The numbers are small enough that +/- one fatality is >5% change...


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