Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :)

 

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Unutsch

Sep 14, 2004, 8:43 AM
Post #26 of 130 (1158 views)
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     Re: [skyhighkiy] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

ehm, sorry to get in so late... i think it's going to sound a bit off-topic, but anyway... dude, i can totally understand how high you feel LaughLaugh it's the best feeling in the world, isn't it? i mean, swooping the grass (if it's even for only 10 feet), and gently taking it up in the air again... WOOOOHOOOoooo!!!!! i can still remember how i felt when i swooped my old Raider 220 for the first time...

anyway: keep it up, bro, but please, be safe!! just don't bounce... ok? Smile

oh, and where are the videos??


skyhighkiy  (B License)

Sep 14, 2004, 9:00 AM
Post #27 of 130 (1151 views)
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     Re: [Unutsch] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

hey man :)

I'll try and throw one up here after this weekend, depends on if I get enuff jumps in (I usually like to warm up w/ 2 or 3 landings after taking monday and tuesday off from jumping)

But yeah, I'll post em up in this category, L8er!


davelepka  (D 21448)

Sep 14, 2004, 9:01 AM
Post #28 of 130 (1151 views)
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     Re: [skyhighkiy] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

Quote:
I'm being closely observed and trained by an extremely experienced jumper (somewhere around 10,000, tandem master, master rigger, IAF instructor, coach) that we all consider a safety freak
==================================

Allrighty then, is this giuy "coaching and training" you how to swoop, or is he telling you enough to hopefully keep you in one piece because he knows that you are going to swoop no matter what anyone tells you?

Ask him this, "Would it be better for me to dial it back a notch, and work on the basics instead of strarting to swoop with my experience level?"

His answer to the second question should provide you with the answer to the first question.


hookitt  (D License)

Sep 14, 2004, 10:35 AM
Post #29 of 130 (1128 views)
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     Re: [skyhighkiy] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

Quote:
b.t.w. hookitt, I never told U, great 1st post
ThanksCool I'm glad you liked it. I meant it... however I don't think you're an idiot or anything.

If you jumped where I do, I'd to my best to steer you a direction that would keep you from that scenario I wrote.

I was told ... don't do hookturns, they're dangerous.

How helpful is that? It's not. It just pisses a person off and they do it anyway. Only one person at the DZ was willing to say this. "Tim... don't do hook turns, they're dangerous... ok.. I know you're going to anyway, so I'll do what I can to help"

It worked. To learn you can't go big and expect to not be hurt. At this point in the game, the approach you describe is probably going to bite you in the ass.

It's a good method, don't get me wrong, however, it's above your experience level. (sorry but that's the only way I can describe it) You haven't had the oppurtunity to have problems yet.

Accuracy is the most overlooked skill there is. Trust me when I say, you will need it one day. Your health will depend on it. Or... just be lucky Tongue

You've got the book from Brian, that's a good start. A good canopy coach that hasn't forgotten what it's like to be a new jumper helps out tremendously.

Have you gone up and stalled the heck out of your parachute? Have you done back spins and such? It's all about learning how parachutes react. Dragging your feet a few times is cool.. however, seriously, You're starting closer to the end of the learning, rather than the beginning of a learning curve. Make sense?

I don't think you feel you know everything. Skydiving is easy. There's no doubt about it. Gaining finite skills however, isn't easy. It's all about taking the time to learn.

I have countless stories why I feel this way. Take your time.. Don't be a pussy or anything, but try to be realistic at the pace you try and progress.

I have to get back to work so I'll attempt to follow this thread a bit more later on.

ManBird... You rock!


Steel  (D 23585)

Sep 14, 2004, 11:26 AM
Post #30 of 130 (1113 views)
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     Re: [hookitt] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

Have you gone up and stalled the heck out of your parachute?
===================================
This is a bad idea and sometimes it freaks me out when I hear "experts" suggest this. If somebody is loading at 1 to 1 or less, they will probably get away with it. But it will prove nothing. If they are loading at 1.5 to 1 or higher, there is a strong possibility that this will result in a cutaway after it spins up.
Approaching a stall is one thing. {noticing that your canopy is starting to stall and at that point imediately releasing just enough brakes to keep it from stalling}. Stalling a canopy loaded @1.5 or higher to the point that you fold it up and have it drop out behind you is just looking for trouble.


freekflyguy  (D 11658)

Sep 14, 2004, 12:03 PM
Post #31 of 130 (1097 views)
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     Re: [skyhighkiy] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Yes yes, I know, I know, I'm a crater waiting to happen, I'm gonna die or break somethin, blah blah blah, it's all been said so don't bore me w/ how I'm going to kill myself, we'll all die some day.

Nov 2001 I had 599 Jumps, 400 of them in the previous year, I was demo'ing a Vengeance 150 (same size as my Jonathan).

I was at the time and still am a full time parachute instructor for the Brit Army. I work with 2 of the best canopy pilots in the UK and listened to there advice but still managed to cock up.

The pic is the result.

Jump No 600 was over 5 months later and I am still recieving physio for my injury.

Now I have over 1400 jumps, I have had coaching from Jim Slaton and consider myself to be a reasonable canopy pilot regularly doing the ditch at my DZ.

I am also a BPA Advanced Instructor (US STA equivalent) and I would never consider advising an intermediate parachutist with 50 jumps to do anything other than a normal approach. I would very critical of any other instructor that did.

Two peolpe I know have died due to low turns one with 500 jumps and one with over 3000, another friend was very lucky that he didnt die, but a year later he has still not fully recovered from his injuries and will never jump again.

I hope you never have to suffer from gaining experience from your mistakes, as I did.

Buzz
Attachments: Ditch.jpg (58.8 KB)
  Vans Off.jpg (57.4 KB)


hookitt  (D License)

Sep 14, 2004, 12:26 PM
Post #32 of 130 (1084 views)
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     Re: [Steel] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

In reply to:
This is a bad idea
No it's not.

I've stalled every single parachute I've owned (and many others) with the exception of my VX 60, which I don't have a whole lot of jumps on yet.

Look at his profile Bruno, he's got 50 jumps and is jumping a sabre at 1.06 wingload.

Do it above the hard deck incase you do actually spin yourself up. I know hardly anyone who's been able to screw their parachute up so bad they've had to cut away. The parachute is already open.

Please note for you PC canopy geeks that I said hardly anyone, in case you're looking for a reason to flame that remarkWink


chachi  (B 3406)

Sep 14, 2004, 12:28 PM
Post #33 of 130 (1080 views)
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     Re: [Steel] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Have you gone up and stalled the heck out of your parachute?
===================================
This is a bad idea and sometimes it freaks me out when I hear "experts" suggest this. If somebody is loading at 1 to 1 or less, they will probably get away with it. But it will prove nothing. If they are loading at 1.5 to 1 or higher, there is a strong possibility that this will result in a cutaway after it spins up.
Approaching a stall is one thing. {noticing that your canopy is starting to stall and at that point imediately releasing just enough brakes to keep it from stalling}. Stalling a canopy loaded @1.5 or higher to the point that you fold it up and have it drop out behind you is just looking for trouble.

In reply to:
Have you gone up and stalled the heck out of your parachute?
===================================
This is a bad idea and sometimes it freaks me out when I hear "experts" suggest this. If somebody is loading at 1 to 1 or less, they will probably get away with it. But it will prove nothing. If they are loading at 1.5 to 1 or higher, there is a strong possibility that this will result in a cutaway after it spins up.
Approaching a stall is one thing. {noticing that your canopy is starting to stall and at that point imediately releasing just enough brakes to keep it from stalling}. Stalling a canopy loaded @1.5 or higher to the point that you fold it up and have it drop out behind you is just looking for trouble.

I completely disagree, the first thing I do when I jump a new canopy is (abover 3500ft for me) and trash it, absolutely to the point of freefalling, it opened the first time, it will open the second time. I think if you don't know what your canopy will feel like and know how to react to it. Just my point of view, but I don't jump at 4.0 to 1, so what would I know.


skyhighkiy  (B License)

Sep 14, 2004, 12:30 PM
Post #34 of 130 (1080 views)
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     Re: [hookitt] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

hey thx for the post,

In reply to:
Have you gone up and stalled the heck out of your parachute? Have you done back spins and such? It's all about learning how parachutes react. Dragging your feet a few times is cool.. however, seriously, You're starting closer to the end of the learning, rather than the beginning of a learning curve. Make sense?

Yeah, I've practiced stalling my canopy multiple times on the majority of my tiny amount of jumps.

I've twisted my risers around and flown backwards and given input to the lines to turn while flying "backwards"...... But back spins? *curious* how do I go about doing this? tell me tell me tell me!!!! Smile


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Sep 14, 2004, 12:32 PM
Post #35 of 130 (1077 views)
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     Re: [hookitt] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

Likewise, I have intentionally stalled every single canopy I have ever owned without ever having to chop it. Keeping your toggles level as you perform the maneuver will keep small canopies from spinning up on you. Not figuring out the stall point of your canopy (above the hard deck) means that you will more likely find it the hard way when you flare too far (toggles or rears) on a real landing. What's one of the first things a pilot goes and does when he is checking out on a new type of aircraft? Approach and departure stalls.

Chuck


skyhighkiy  (B License)

Sep 14, 2004, 12:34 PM
Post #36 of 130 (1072 views)
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     Re: [freekflyguy] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

I'm sorry to hear about your incident, but glad you're not more seriously injured Smile

judging from the placement of your carples (sp?) and the placement of the notch of your tibia and fibula....the dislocation of it...was that from sticking your toe straight down (as shown in first picture), were those two pipctures taken from the same landing? Did the water push it back or was that from dirt? did you rhave your foot tensed at the time of dislocation?


skyhighkiy  (B License)

Sep 14, 2004, 12:41 PM
Post #37 of 130 (1061 views)
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     Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

this is what I know about stalling,

Toggles level,
pull down slowly so as to really feel where the point is.
once the canopy stalls completely and the tail does it's little foldy collapsing thingy, let the toggles up just a little bit and steadily to get back in to flight.

when I am doing a jumpf or just practicing canopy stuff, I pull really high (in the saddle by about 4500) and usually stop practicing stalls by the time I'm at 2 grand.

suggestions? tips? please?


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Sep 14, 2004, 12:48 PM
Post #38 of 130 (1055 views)
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     Re: [skyhighkiy] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

In reply to:
suggestions? tips? please?

Learn the slow flight characteristics of your canopy. Watch a good swooper how they setup their hook turn. It's no accident that they find themselves at a certain vertical and horizontal position in the sky above their target before they initiate their hook. They've used their slow flight skills to get them to that point and once there, it's time for them to rock and roll (assuming the approach is clear of any other canopies).


freekflyguy  (D 11658)

Sep 14, 2004, 12:52 PM
Post #39 of 130 (1052 views)
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     Re: [skyhighkiy] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

The pics were taken nearly 3 years apart.

I broke my ankle at Elsinore in 01 atempting to swoop the wind blades that were at the side of the ditch at the time.

I sustained a dislocated ankle and fractured Fibula. I spent 5 weeks in hospital and was unable to jump until the following April

The second pic was taken earlier this year at my DZ at RAPA.

Buzz


murps2000  (D 23114)

Sep 14, 2004, 12:52 PM
Post #40 of 130 (1051 views)
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     Re: [hookitt] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

You mean I'm not tactful

That's probably true, I'll try and find time tonight for a more reasonable response. Though I really liked the first one.
Quote:

Oh we all loved it. In fact, it illustrated the point quite well. It' just that I wasn't too sure that it would get through.

You know, after only about a year in the forums, I'm amazed at how many threads I've seen like this. And I'm still baffled as to what approach will get the message accross. I remember reading an incident report five or six years ago where some kid with like 70 jumps hooked in under a triathalon loaded at 1.3. Everyone at his DZ had stated what a heads up pilot he was, and that he learned and progressed so quickly. I'm sure he probably was good for 70 jumps, but he's dead now. Him and dozens of others like him, before and after. It's a shame that they seem to die in vain.

I think skyhighkiy might actually listen, though, so I'm a little encouraged.


beowulf  (C License)

Sep 14, 2004, 12:58 PM
Post #41 of 130 (1063 views)
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     Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

I understand needing to know where the stall point is on a canopy, but I don't understand why I would want to push it beyond the stall point?


hookitt  (D License)

Sep 14, 2004, 1:37 PM
Post #42 of 130 (1038 views)
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     Re: [beowulf] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

It's fun.


chachi  (B 3406)

Sep 14, 2004, 1:41 PM
Post #43 of 130 (1036 views)
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     Re: [beowulf] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I understand needing to know where the stall point is on a canopy, but I don't understand why I would want to push it beyond the stall point?

How do you truly know where the canopy will stall unless you actually stall it, b4 that your simply guessing.

~Chachi


Steel  (D 23585)

Sep 14, 2004, 2:06 PM
Post #44 of 130 (1024 views)
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     Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Likewise, I have intentionally stalled every single canopy I have ever owned without ever having to chop it. Keeping your toggles level as you perform the maneuver will keep small canopies from spinning up on you. Not figuring out the stall point of your canopy (above the hard deck) means that you will more likely find it the hard way when you flare too far (toggles or rears) on a real landing. What's one of the first things a pilot goes and does when he is checking out on a new type of aircraft? Approach and departure stalls.

Chuck
Being a licensed private pilot who has actually performed spins, I can tell you that a canopy may be similar to a fixed, rigid, wing but there are clear differences. If you perform an uncoodinated stall on and airplane and cause it to spin, recovery is a simple as, power out, full opposite rudder, yoke foward and easy it back to recovery.
A canopy on the other hand is just not the same. Once it spins and lines twist up, it can very quickly turn into a wild situation. I have been is such a situation. One time with my 62 which at the time was loaded @ 3.4, I decided to get creative with the setting of the brakes. I had a rigger set the eye lower so that my canopy would open in almost full flight. Jumped it like this about 15 times. It was all cool, it was opening slower this way. Then it happened, one time my canopy would not fully inflate. This already tells you something. Its possible that if the breaks are not set deep enough that the canopy won't inflate. But there is more to the story. I was at about 5k so I had plenty of time to try to make this work. I tried to pull my risers apart roughly several times but there was no way it was going to finish opening that way. I waited for more than 10-15 seconds but it just would finish inflating. Then I thought since that won't work, maybe I will try to pump the breaks quickly. I will never forget this because I was stairing right up at my canopy as I did this, hoping this might cause it to fully inflate. Well it didn't. But I will tell you what it did do. It imediately stalled and in less than a half a second, as I let up on the toggles, I saw my canopy shoot up and imediately spin (spin extremely fast). Needless to say the ended up in a cutaway.
Now that is my experience. But from what I have seen, I am not the only one. Scott Miller recently was at Skydive Dallas teaching a canopy course. I heard from people in that class that he wanted them to perform a full stall. However for the ones with sub 100 squarefeet canopies, he had the jump student gear to perform this manuver. My understanding is that it was for this same reason.
If you fully stall a high perfromance canopy you really don't know what is going to happen next.


hookitt  (D License)

Sep 14, 2004, 2:16 PM
Post #45 of 130 (1014 views)
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     Re: [Steel] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

In reply to:
If you fully stall a high perfromance canopy you really don't know what is going to happen next.

SOOoooo.... go jump the larger canopy and stall it. See what happens and then you'll have a clue. Then go jump something like a sabre at 1.5 and do the same thing.

THEN... try it on your sub 100.

What people miss out on early on, is experimenting with docile canopies first.

You have a rediculously small canopy so it's hardly comparable to anything the general public jumps. Heck I've only jumped 3:1 and when I finally do again I'll stall it. I did find the stall point but that's about it.


Steel  (D 23585)

Sep 14, 2004, 2:31 PM
Post #46 of 130 (1006 views)
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     Re: [hookitt] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
If you fully stall a high perfromance canopy you really don't know what is going to happen next.

SOOoooo.... go jump the larger canopy and stall it. See what happens and then you'll have a clue.
====================
I didn't show up at a DZ one day having never jumped and start where I am @ now. I jumped the jumbo canopies too. All my training was on a Manta 288, my first solo jump was on a 230. And right off student status I went to a Robo 185 on which I did perform a full stall. I do know what it feels like. I did it on my sabre 150 that I got after that as well. But as I recall one of my canopy mentors said very clearly when I first jumped my sabre 120, bring it to the stall point so that you know not to surpass that when landing but do not fully stall it to the point of folding it up behind yourself. There is not guarantee that it will recover.

THEN... try it on your sub 100.

What people miss out on early on, is experimenting with docile canopies first.

You have a rediculously small canopy so it's hardly comparable to anything the general public jumps. Heck I've only jumped 3:1 and when I finally do again I'll stall it. I did find the stall point but that's about it.
ok if you choose to do so then go ahead and let us know what happens to you. I already know what happened to me. I have no desire to cause another cutaway.


beowulf  (C License)

Sep 14, 2004, 2:44 PM
Post #47 of 130 (995 views)
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     Re: [hookitt] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

I have fully stalled my canopy. But I still don't really see the advantage in fully stalling as opposed to just knowing at what point the canopy begins to stall. In landing you would never want to go past the point where the canopy begins to stall Right?


hookitt  (D License)

Sep 14, 2004, 2:47 PM
Post #48 of 130 (991 views)
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     Re: [Steel] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

I already have stalled my 97 stiletto a countless number of times.

When I bought my 78 Xaos 27 cell, I did the same thing.

Results, It folded up and I released the toggles and it flew again.

The only time I've spun a canopy up was trying to back spin it with much too great of toggle input. Result, I let go of the toggles, and got right out of the line twists.

So, if the canopy is highly loaded, don't do back spins using the toggles.


hookitt  (D License)

Sep 14, 2004, 2:48 PM
Post #49 of 130 (989 views)
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     Re: [beowulf] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I have fully stalled my canopy. But I still don't really see the advantage in fully stalling as opposed to just knowing at what point the canopy begins to stall. In landing you would never want to go past the point where the canopy begins to stall Right?

There comes a point when it's common sense. I'm not going to answer thatLaugh


beowulf  (C License)

Sep 14, 2004, 2:52 PM
Post #50 of 130 (983 views)
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     Re: [hookitt] Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :) [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have fully stalled my canopy. But I still don't really see the advantage in fully stalling as opposed to just knowing at what point the canopy begins to stall. In landing you would never want to go past the point where the canopy begins to stall Right?

There comes a point when it's common sense. I'm not going to answer thatLaugh

My question in that is what more would I learn from fully stalling the canopy? Am I missing something.


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