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EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS

 

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foreverfree  (D 17240)

Sep 13, 2004, 8:26 AM
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EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS Can't Post

Mad

I WISH TO DISCUSS PREVENTIVE MEASURES AND HOW TO CORRECT SITUATIONS/INCIDENTS WITH STUDENTS WHO DO NOT ARCH ON EXIT LEADING TO SIDE SPIN PHENOMENON AND POSITONS WHICH MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO THROW DROUGE OUT.


tspillers  (D 21601)

Sep 13, 2004, 8:28 AM
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Re: [foreverfree] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you discuss this with your tandem Examiner?

I beleive Mark Kruse is in your area and could help you with these issues.

Todd


JJohnson  (D 22675)

Sep 13, 2004, 8:40 AM
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Re: [foreverfree] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

As a very wise man told me, winning the battle with students is done on the ground. Anything in the air is reactionary to the situation. If you can relax the student and prepare them for what they are going to go through, they are more likely to do what you instructed them to do.
In my limted experience women do a better job at listening then men students. Something about men's need to control everything and when they cannot they go rigid at the door in that "fight" mode.
Any exit I had that went wrong....(not having belly to relative wind)...was dealt with by wrapping myself around the student, making us go back to earth. Then arching it out to go belly to earth and getting the drouge out.
This is only a general statement and doesnt cover everything....but I have had some really scared students....and they have all done a great job once I put them at ease.
The worst ride to date was a heavy girl who was convinced she could swim to the video guy. 8000 feet of bucking bronco. The video guy was laughing so hard he couldn't operate his bite switch.


FlyinseivLP2  (D 18628)

Sep 13, 2004, 2:15 PM
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Re: [foreverfree] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't let the students position hinder you stability. If you present your body to the relative wind well right out the door, you should be able to get the drouge out before the student can cause problems. Don't be premature throwing the drouge, but don't miss your opportunity. Also from the 1000 or so I have videoed the ones who wrap the students up to get stable spend the most time UNSTABLE. I have never had to wrap a student. Just my thoughts.


OnYourBack  (D 25190)

Sep 13, 2004, 2:44 PM
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Re: [FlyinseivLP2] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

"the ones who wrap the students up to get stable spend the most time UNSTABLE"

I totally agree. Just fly your slot. If you exit properly, very rarely does it matter what they are doing underneath you. If they do flip you over, your time is better spent to continue flying yourself. Once you dearch to "wrap" them, you usually really begin to tumble. You can increase your control even more by wearing an appropriate jumpsuit.


TALONSKY  (D License)

Sep 13, 2004, 3:05 PM
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Re: [OnYourBack] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

In my limited experiance(160 tandems) I would totally agree. I spent my first 100 tandems trying to ankle lock the students and fighting for control. Now I just get out into the relative wind pull the drogue and fly around what ever the student is doing.
Kirk


JJohnson  (D 22675)

Sep 13, 2004, 6:11 PM
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Re: [FlyinseivLP2] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

The side spin starts because of the instructor being arched and the student being opposite. If you find yourself unstable, wrapping them or molding to their body shape prevents or stops the side spin. Once you roll to your back it is easy to then flip the pair of you over to belly to earth.
This is right out of Strong's video tape.

Do not confuse this with trying to wrestle the student out the door to try and get them arched...


AggieDave  (D License)

Sep 13, 2004, 6:59 PM
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Re: [OnYourBack] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you exit properly, very rarely does it matter what they are doing underneath you. If they do flip you over, your time is better spent to continue flying yourself.

Although I would agree with you, its only to a point. There are some instances where it may be better to wrap up the student, go ahead and end up on your back, then roll and toss the drogue.

I have a hard time believing in "blanket" statements when dealing with students, since it has been seriously proven to me more then a couple of times that students will do something you're not expecting. That's no matter how well you train them, sometimes the shit just hits the fan.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Sep 13, 2004, 8:17 PM
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Re: [foreverfree] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

My take on it, with 800+ tandems spread over 11 years, is that if you stay into the relative wind, you can out arch a flailing passenger and stay stable. But if you get sideways to the relative wind and the student is going fetal, you'll probably side spin. I got taken on a ride this summer trying to get one more flip for a woman. Shocked If you're lucky to jump an otter, easy. If you're squeezing out of a king air or twin beech, more likely to get sideways and spin. that's what I've seen.Unsure


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 13, 2004, 10:58 PM
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Re: [foreverfree] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

In my 3000+ tandems I have not even come close to a side spin, and I do not throw the drouge while unstable. Wink

Exits can take some finess and a little muscule.
Exit with your arms and legs extended for maximum control, whether your presenting into the wind or diving toward the tail, unless doing flips keeping focused on the dirrection of the relative wind, then be prepared to extented your limbs, get stable and throw the drouge.
It shouldn't matter what the hell a student is doing for an Instructor to get stable and be able to throw the drouge! Wink

And never blame a bad drouge throw on a student either. Mad

If your having problems with this, for god sake do NOT take any students!
Get some experienced jumpers to be your unstable passenger and get your exits down.

I ran into this problem at a local DZ I used to work at when a newly rated instructor was throwing the drouge to get stable, sometimes when on his back and in one case that day the drouge went in between him and his student!
After telling the DZM he was unsafe and to be pulled out of the rotation, he did.
But, after the DZO talked with the Instructor for about 5 mins explaining some techniques, he put him back in the rotation for taking students and that Instructor continued to throw the drouge unstable.

IMO this is a pure sign of money before safety.

The student pays for the safest possible Instructor he can have, and an Instructor that blames the student for the bad exit doesn't need to be taking students. Unsure

BE SAFE

-


skydiverton  (D 123456789)

Sep 13, 2004, 11:51 PM
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Re: [bodypilot1] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree.
EXIT STABLE!!!

Remember what happens it you use your legs to catch a student. You have even less controll area at that moment.

Correct the student in the door. Fly your exit and do not react in case the student has an incorrect body position (legs straight, inverse arch)
This works even with a student kicking and grapping with his hands
Fly the exit a couple of seconds and throw the droque in clean air belly to earth.

A lightweight passenger with an incorrect body position will influence your stability more than a hamburger shaped meat-ball.

When you feel you will flip over it's often better to make the flip instead of fighting it. The flip will come anyway.

When using your droque to gain stability remember the "lost droque release situation"

Till now I never had to use my droque to gain stability neither did I come close to a side-spin

When jumping out of an airplane you are not familar with, return to student status and ask a briefing


(This post was edited by skydiverton on Sep 14, 2004, 1:44 AM)


OnYourBack  (D 25190)

Sep 14, 2004, 7:09 AM
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Re: [JJohnson] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

"the instructor being arched and the student being opposite"

This alone will not cause a side spin. If this position occurs AND your side is presented to the relative wind. If you present properly to the relative wind the above mentioned position will not spin you.


JJohnson  (D 22675)

Sep 14, 2004, 7:35 AM
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Re: [OnYourBack] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

I did say "if you find yourself unstable". I would not classify unstable as being presented properly to the relative wind.
I stand by my statement. There is a time and place for wrapping the student to prevent a side spin and getting out of one. Prevention is a lot better than cure.
Yes you want to exit perfectly. But if you think that is going to happen everytime....lots of luck.

I'll use me as an example. At 5 foot 4" it doesnt take much for a student to be bigger than me. Hell the average circus midget can take me in a one on one basketball game. So I take a 6 foot 4" student who is the tall lanky type. With a wingspan that dwarfs mine, all he has to do is throw his legs or arms out to one side and he can roll us over. Laws of physics cannot be changed: He has first dibs on the relative wind and he can displace more air than I can.
So now all of the sudden we find ourselves with a potential side spin scenario. It was caused by the exact position you said couldn't. Do I wait to see if it develops? Or do I quickly go with it, roll us over and arch out of it? I'm going with path of least resistance.

I'm not trying to start shit with you, but sometimes I can't dictate the exit. When that happens and I think the potential for a side spin is there....it takes nothing to roll it on the back and to the belly.


(This post was edited by JJohnson on Sep 14, 2004, 7:54 AM)


OnYourBack  (D 25190)

Sep 14, 2004, 7:49 AM
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Re: [JJohnson] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

I will be the last to tell you that I exit perfectly on every jump. I didn't mean to make it sound that way at all. Smile I just wanted to make sure people understood that a side spin does not simply happen from the opposite positions. Its a combination of the opposite positions and a poor presentation to the relative wind. So like you said, prevention is better than cure. I truly believe and many other instructors in here have agreed that, if you work on an exit with a proper presentation, it will rarely matter what the student is doing.


(This post was edited by OnYourBack on Sep 14, 2004, 7:55 AM)


JJohnson  (D 22675)

Sep 14, 2004, 7:59 AM
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Re: [OnYourBack] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

I edited my post brother. I should clarify that at my hieght I err to the side of caution. I've seen experienced instructors get taken for rides when they get complacent. I hope to not repeat their mistakes.

It seems to me that most instructors get taken for rides by the 90 pound girls...For me it is the 8 foot lurch looking dudes I worry about.


OnYourBack  (D 25190)

Sep 14, 2004, 8:32 AM
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Re: [JJohnson] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

No worriesCool.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 14, 2004, 8:50 AM
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Re: [JJohnson] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It seems to me that most instructors get taken for rides by the 90 pound girls.....

This usually happen because the over confident Instructor thinks the small students are so easy to exit with, delay throwing the drouge when they have exited stable, then take the small student to teminal and loose stability at a faster fall rate with much less time to react. Unsure
The other is when the wining camera flyer says they'll have trouble stay with them if he deploys the drouge because he is wearing just a freefly suit....Unimpressed

Dress for success.
If your doing tandems wear something that is baggy from your shoulders to your wrists and baggy legs all the way to your ankles.
Doing tandems in your shorts and T shirt is comfortable BUT it is reducing your control surfaces alot.
And if your cameraman starts wining about the fall rate get another one that is better than him. Wink

-


JJohnson  (D 22675)

Sep 14, 2004, 9:04 AM
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Re: [bodypilot1] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

Right you are. I'm always in FF pants, which are real baggy. Normally with the top as well, at least a long sleeved T-shirt. I want/need all the drag I can get. All of our camera flyers are good as CSC. They have never complained either way about the drouge throw. They know sometimes it's immediate and other times not.

I have to say that most of my students have been real good. I think that is because they were relaxed and prepared for what they were going to do.

It seems that the males are the ones that tighten up at the door. The trick I have used is to tell them to bale their egos, stop thinking logically and enjoy the feeling that they are not in control.
If they think about arching out the door, logic is too slow. By the time they get around to telling their body to arch we are 100 feet out the door. Most guys are too busy trying to remember what Wesley Snipes did in Drop Zone.

Females on the other hand just seem to go limp in the door and do exactly what you told them to. I taught martial arts years ago and noticed the same thing. Guys are busy trying to show you what they learned from the Bruce Lee flicks and women look, listen and learn.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 14, 2004, 9:13 AM
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Re: [JJohnson] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It seems that the males are the ones that tighten up at the door.
Females on the other hand just seem to go limp in the door.

Maybe because guys dont want any part of going LIMP?......Sly

Be safe. Wink

-


tspillers  (D 21601)

Sep 14, 2004, 9:27 AM
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Re: [JJohnson] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree mostly with you, but definitely not with this part:

Quote:
Anything in the air is reactionary to the situation.

You should be proactive not reactive. This, as you mentioned, starts on the ground. In the air you shoud be looking for and identifying things that may become a problem (ie a week exit position). You should also force the pair into the relative wind if need as mentioned in this thread rather than waiting for it to take you somewhere.

Todd


livendive  (D 21415)

Sep 14, 2004, 9:44 AM
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Re: [TALONSKY] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I spent my first 100 tandems trying to ankle lock the students and fighting for control. Now I just get out into the relative wind pull the drogue and fly around what ever the student is doing.

Do you guys include anything about this kind of thing in your briefing? I fly real big so it's not real important to me what my student's do, but part of my briefing is that if they feel my heels kick them in the thighs like a rider spurring a horse, it's me reminding them to get their legs back. Then I exit & outfly them but have a way of quickly reminding them about their legs that makes my life easier (as opposed to wrestling/anklelocking). I've yet to use this on someone and not have it work.

Blues,
Dave


crutch  (D 10182)

Sep 14, 2004, 9:53 AM
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Re: [bodypilot1] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The other is when the wining camera flyer says they'll have trouble stay with them if he deploys the drouge because he is wearing just a freefly suit....

Dress for success.
If your doing tandems wear something that is baggy from your shoulders to your wrists and baggy legs all the way to your ankles.
Doing tandems in your shorts and T shirt is comfortable BUT it is reducing your control surfaces alot.
And if your cameraman starts wining about the fall rate get another one that is better than him.

I am going to start something here, and some of you are going to have a problem with it. If you need a baggy suit to take someone comfortably, you need to rethink your chosen preofession. When someone comes and pays the kinda money that we are charging to do a tandem, we need to work as a team to make it happen. that means the camera person and the tandem master need to work together. If you need to wear a baggy suit to be comfortable (especially with someone under 150 lbs.), you just put a much bigger load on the other half of the team. If you can't hold the drogue a little to help when you have a 100 lb passenger, you aren't helping your partner at all. It all goes along with little things such as facing the sun. Wearing clothes that doesn't put undue strees on the camera flyer (we need to dress for the success of the product). It takes a team to produce a excellent product, be a team player.

I am not saying we need to take added risks, what I am saying is that if you aren't good enough to do this simple little things, maybe you should being doing something else.


TALONSKY  (D License)

Sep 14, 2004, 10:10 AM
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Re: [livendive] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

 We do include in our ground teaching something about if you feel us move you do not fight it just try and stay where we move you to. In my experience that has never worked if I have had a need to ankle lock a student they will start kicking at my leg to get out. I do not understand it, I just think their body is reacting without any true thought process to it. That is why I just kind of gave up on it and now just out fly them. I find it interesting but now after I exit I truely feel myself totally relax and I just react to keep us flying on heading.
Kirk


TALONSKY  (D License)

Sep 14, 2004, 10:16 AM
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Re: [crutch] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
The other is when the wining camera flyer says they'll have trouble stay with them if he deploys the drouge because he is wearing just a freefly suit....

Dress for success.
If your doing tandems wear something that is baggy from your shoulders to your wrists and baggy legs all the way to your ankles.
Doing tandems in your shorts and T shirt is comfortable BUT it is reducing your control surfaces alot.
And if your cameraman starts wining about the fall rate get another one that is better than him.

I am going to start something here, and some of you are going to have a problem with it. If you need a baggy suit to take someone comfortably, you need to rethink your chosen preofession. When someone comes and pays the kinda money that we are charging to do a tandem, we need to work as a team to make it happen. that means the camera person and the tandem master need to work together. If you need to wear a baggy suit to be comfortable (especially with someone under 150 lbs.), you just put a much bigger load on the other half of the team. If you can't hold the drogue a little to help when you have a 100 lb passenger, you aren't helping your partner at all. It all goes along with little things such as facing the sun. Wearing clothes that doesn't put undue strees on the camera flyer (we need to dress for the success of the product). It takes a team to produce a excellent product, be a team player.

I am not saying we need to take added risks, what I am saying is that if you aren't good enough to do this simple little things, maybe you should being doing something else.

I understand where your coming from on this subject. My course director told me and I agree that one looks much more professional in a suit rather than sorts and a tee shirt. I do like the extra control I have wearing my freefly suit but I do not need to wear it. I wear it to present a myself as a professional if I am taking up a light student with vid. I will ditch the jacket or just suck all limbs in to help my video guy.
Kirk


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 14, 2004, 10:21 AM
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Re: [crutch] EXIT TO THROWING THE DROGUE OUT INSTABILITY PROBLEMS [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you need a baggy suit to take someone comfortably, you need to rethink your chosen preofession.

I agree.
But taking every opportunity to maximize you having total control of the skydive before you exit the plane is always a good idea.
You can only wish you had more controling surfaces should the student deside to stay fetal after exiting and you only had your shorts and T shirt on. Unsure

In reply to:
If you need to wear a baggy suit to be comfortable (especially with someone under 150 lbs.), you just put a much bigger load on the other half of the team. If you can't hold the drogue a little to help when you have a 100 lb passenger, you aren't helping your partner at all.

What part of the camera flyers job includes keeping your tandem passengers skydive as safe as possible?

Truely putting a team (TI and cameraflyer) together for a tandem skydive is a good thing for the students all around experience, but having the camera flyer adjust their technique for every jump depending on the students body size is always a much safer thing to do. Wink

Edited to add:
Never once when flying camera for years did I ever tell the TI to help me out with the fall rate by holding off on the drouge or to wear (less/more) of a suit.

-


(This post was edited by bodypilot1 on Sep 14, 2004, 11:35 AM)


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