Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Mal report - begginers should read this

 

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airdrew20012001  (D 24834)

Apr 8, 2002, 11:35 AM
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Mal report - begginers should read this Can't Post

I had a buddy who chopped this weekend and though his story might provide useful to others. I noticed in the plane that he wasn't wearing an altimiter and asked what up with that. He said he had left it in his locker at our home DZ and felt wierd asking for another. Besides, both he and I had dytters. This made me uncomfortable.
The dive went according to plan. At opening he noticed one of his brakes was unstowed and wrapped in his lines. He tried to fart around and clear it but then heard his dytter go off without knowing which alarm it was. He chopped, got stable, and activated his reserve. His landing was uneventful.

Lessons to be learned:
Always wear an altimeter. He was around 3,500 when his second warning, not decision time warning went off so he actually had more time than he thought.
If this happens to you, release the other break. He left it stowed and was diving and spinning making him delay his reserve pull until he got stable. He probably could've fixed it had he done so.
I checked his rig afterward and guess what? No togle stows. We switched his risers out for a set that I had spare that did have togle stows. Make sure you have them on yours.

Wierd, huh?

Drewfus McDoofus


weid14  (D 20292)

Apr 8, 2002, 11:41 AM
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Altimeters are not required in the states anyway -- just recomended. Why a blanket statement saying wear one? I haven't for the last 700 jumps or so.



gale  (B 5141)

Apr 8, 2002, 11:50 AM
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While they may not be required in the States, (and I don't know why they wouldn't be) it just makes sense to wear one. While you obviously feel comfortable not wearing one I think you would be in the minority. What if something went wrong with your dytter? (like you batteries die for example) Maybe you think that you eyeballed altitued awareness would save you, but I would rather have an extra dail any day rather then the subjuctiveness of eyeballing it. It's just one more percausion to keep you safe - and it's so easy to do! Why not.

Gale

Life's not worth living if you can't feel alive


sdctlc  (D 16437)

Apr 8, 2002, 11:52 AM
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It seems that usually an audible altimeter that has 3 warnings have 3 distinct sounds with the third being a flat line of some sort. What type was he using?

Scott C.



weid14  (D 20292)

Apr 8, 2002, 11:57 AM
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well, typically in a skydive I dont' have time to look at an alti. second, they are a mechanical device, prone to failure, just like everything else (i have had mine read off by over 1000 feet during a skydive). third - why regulate more than necessary? I probably would wear one for a night jump though. I may be in the minority, but I don't think it's a small minority.



lummy  (A 40776)

Apr 8, 2002, 12:02 PM
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In reply to:
. We switched his risers out for a set that I had spare that did have togle stows. Make sure you have them on yours.
This is very interesting to me. I just bought a set of risers for my rig and noticed they did not have the stows. I asked how much it would cost to have them sewn on and the guy helping me mentioned that they aren't really necessary if the toggles are locked in place.
Oh well, and I thought it was expensive to rent rigs... $20 for this little mod, 50 there.... la te da....


baby's hungry and the money's all gone. the folks back home don't want to talk on the phone.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Apr 8, 2002, 1:03 PM
Post #7 of 51 (3285 views)
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>well, typically in a skydive I dont' have time to look at an alti.

I would suggest changing your skydive around so you _do_ have time to check your altitude, whether that involves looking at the ground or at an altimeter (both take about the same amount of time.) It's pretty important. Audibles are great, but when you think about what sound a broken audible makes, the importance of a visual system becomes pretty clear.

-bill von


weid14  (D 20292)

Apr 8, 2002, 2:45 PM
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4way Bill -- I agree altitude awareness in a skydive is very important, but in 4 way we really don't look.



Kirils  (D License)

Apr 8, 2002, 2:45 PM
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At my DZ altimeters ARE required and audibles are required for freeflyers. No altimeter, no jump...
I think it's a good rule.

Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability...


weid14  (D 20292)

Apr 8, 2002, 2:46 PM
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Are required for everyone?? not just students?



Jimbo  (D License)

Apr 8, 2002, 3:50 PM
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In reply to:
At my DZ altimeters ARE required and audibles are required for freeflyers. No altimeter, no jump...
I think it's a good rule.
This is at AerOhio?

Can any other AerOhio jumpers confirm this? It sounds a little odd to me that they would even have the time to enforce something like this. While an altimeter is certainly a good idea it's not (or at least shouldn't be) you're primary method of judging altitude. If anything the altimeter should be a considered a backup device and treated accordingly, like a Cypres or an RSL.

-
Jim



airdrew20012001  (D 24834)

Apr 8, 2002, 3:58 PM
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Here's my why I wear an altimiter story:
I had a slow mal, it was a broken line to the stabalizers. It could fly but when I tried flaring it it dove like a rat bastard, lost about 750 feet and quick. I checked my altimeter and was at 2,000 feet. I chopped it and landed on. The moral to this story: how do you make the decision to hack or not to hack on a canopy that can fly but not land if you don't KNOW your altitude? What if you are spinning? Dizzy?

Drewfus McDoofus


Jimbo  (D License)

Apr 8, 2002, 4:52 PM
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In reply to:
The moral to this story: how do you make the decision to hack or not to hack on a canopy that can fly but not land if you don't KNOW your altitude?
LOOK. Use your eyes!

How do you know your altimeter is accurate? What if your altimeter says 4000, but your skimming the tree tops? Are you at 4000? The point is, trust your eyes, they don't lie.

In reply to:
What if you are spinning? Dizzy?
If you're spinning hard enough/fast enough you're going to reach a point where you cutaway or deploy the reserve regardless of altitude.




skymedic  (C 33561)

Apr 8, 2002, 5:09 PM
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In reply to:
trust your eyes, they don't lie.
But they can lie to you...although your eye's have a less chance of failing...it is how you perceive what you see with those eye's that is the important thing...

Cheers....vasbyt
marc
"I have no fear of falling, I just hate hitting the ground"-The Badlees...


weid14  (D 20292)

Apr 8, 2002, 5:18 PM
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How long you gonna wait to make a decision, can it steer and land? no -- see ya. a canopy spinning like a mofo -- pretty much going to chop it right away and not look at an alti anyway.

There are instances of high speed mals where the time it takes to look at an alti may be precious half seconds you need....



RichM  (D 100226)

Apr 8, 2002, 5:29 PM
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Scary stuff, lot's of opinions. I will relate a simple and regular occurance. I normally jump at Headcorn in Kent, UK. The field in Kent are small. I know then, they look nice. I know how big they should be when I deploy.

I also jump at Sibson, UK. Much bigger fields in that part of the UK. I get groundrush at 4000ft on the first jump. I often deploy early. When I start jumping Headcorn again... I think my alti is riding high.

I would not take an eyeball altitude meaurement on merit yet (I have only 450 jumps, so maybe after a period of time/experience at a given DZ I would, can't tell yet).

Visual altimeters are analog devices, you can look at them anytime for an update on altitude. Audibles gives you altitude at 3 distinct and exclusive stages.

AFAIK top belly flyers fly with at least one visiual, and top freeflyers fly with two or more audibles. I know what I will be doing for the foreseeable future.

Rich M



RichM  (D 100226)

Apr 8, 2002, 5:32 PM
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Erm, I didn't post this to this thread. *confused*
Rich M



Kirils  (D License)

Apr 8, 2002, 5:35 PM
Post #18 of 51 (3183 views)
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I just called Sherry Butcher at AerOhio. She said altimeters are required and free flyers must have audibles.


Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability...


FallinWoman  (C 32269)

Apr 8, 2002, 6:28 PM
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In reply to:
How long you gonna wait to make a decision, can it steer and land? no -- see ya. a canopy spinning like a mofo -- pretty much going to chop it right away and not look at an alti anyway.
On my one and only cut-away (knock on wood) I was under an open canopy at 3000ft...I couldn't steer it. I spent the next 1000 ft trying to clear the problem, then I chopped. I used my altimeter to approximate how much time I had to attempt to clear before I had to make a decision.

I truly don't understand not having an altimeter on to look at both in freefall and under canopy. I use mine under canopy to learn the characteristics, among ither things. I have about 100 jumps on my canopy and am still playing with front risers and spirals and floating in rear risers...and the altimeter helps me evaluate the effects of such moves on my canopy and altitude.

What is the arguement AGAINST wearing one...just in case you want to check it???



Anne


rgoper  (C 32349)

Apr 8, 2002, 6:37 PM
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i didn't even bother reading the responses this one got, so i'll make mine now to save time. your best altimeter is the GROUND, your eyes, your ears. the ground is only so big at 2500', if it starts getting bigger, quicker than you think it oughta, pull!

Richard

"Let The Flaming Begin"

For The Record, I wear One, And DO NOT Suggest That No One Else NOT Wear One. But I Do Get My First Altitude Check At Around 7K, When I First Started Diving, I Checked It Every 2 Seconds, You Start To Get A Mental Altimeter!





weid14  (D 20292)

Apr 8, 2002, 6:41 PM
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right, but how precise is that alti under canopy when you do those manuvers? And you also have to realize that the canopy will behave differently higher than near landing heights, too.

I'm actaully not arguing against anything. I'm saying it's a mechanical device that may or may not work all the time. Relying on it could get you in trouble.

I choose not to wear one cause 99% of my jumps are 4way and it gets in the way more than anything -- taking grips and presenting. besides when i did wear one on 4way it was covered by someones hand most of the time. a couple teammates took to wearing theirs on their rigs, when asked if they ever look their response was "nope". i choose not to wear one. you can choose other wise Smile. I like to be able to have a choice, and not a mandate.



Jimbo  (D License)

Apr 8, 2002, 6:45 PM
Post #22 of 51 (3158 views)
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In reply to:
What is the arguement AGAINST wearing one...just in case you want to check it???
I wasn't trying to suggest that an altimeter is a bad thing or that any jumper shouldn't wear one, but rather that an altimeter is a mechanical device and _will_ fail. To those who rely on the altimeter what will you do when it does fail? The ground is still/should be your best indicator of altitude. If you can't tell the difference between 10,000 - 5,000 - 1,000 - 500 - and below without an altimeter then I would suggest that you start paying more attention to your surroundings.

For the record, I do wear an altimeter on almost every jump, those few jumps that I've forgotten my alti I do notice it's missing and feel 'naked' without it, but it's not the end of the world...




rgoper  (C 32349)

Apr 8, 2002, 7:33 PM
Post #23 of 51 (3145 views)
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**For the record, I do wear an altimeter on almost every jump, those few jumps that I've forgotten my alti I do notice it's missing and feel 'naked' without it, but it's not the end of the world...**

BINGO, my brother, i agree, if you do a hop-n-pop, would ya need one?it is merely a "visual reference" that can, and do malfunction, at lower altitudes than higher, then we have the chest mounted RW altimeters, i won't go there!

Richard

"If I Forgot To Say It, I'm Not Sorry"






Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 8, 2002, 9:06 PM
Post #24 of 51 (3121 views)
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>4way Bill -- I agree altitude awareness in a skydive is very important, but in 4 way we really don't look.

Really? I think you have to, even if it means taking the time to glance down every once in a while. John Hamilton, a former member of Airspeed, can judge altitude just by looking, and he's accurate to ~500 feet - and I don't think Airspeed has had too many problems with being slowed down by undue attention to altitude.

There was a 4-way team back in '97 who had problems with their audible altimeters. They had four simultaneous cypres firings, and by a miracle avoided a 4-way reserve wrap. I don't think that kind of lack of attention is defensible even for a really good 4 way team.

There are a lot of ways to do it. During AFF I use the student's altimeter, because I can see it more easily. During most RW, I just look at the ground. If I check my altimeter at all I do it once, and it's always at around 5000 feet, because that's where my eyes start telling me I'm getting low. If I'm concentrating on the dive too much I just note the 5000 foot mark, wait another 6-8 seconds, then track off. I'm usually not off by more than 500 feet.

-bill von


Premier Remster  (C License)

Apr 9, 2002, 1:59 AM
Post #25 of 51 (3094 views)
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In reply to:
then we have the chest mounted RW altimeters, i won't go there!
Please do Richard..... what do you mean?

Remster
Muff 914


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