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150, Loading vs. Performance

 


Brodes

Aug 18, 2004, 2:42 AM
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150, Loading vs. Performance Can't Post

Sorry if this has been asked before.

Im looking at my first rig, and my loading on a sabre 150 is .85 which is very acceptable as far as i see it. However, talking to a CrEW dog at my DZ he was saying that 150's are the start of 'performance canopies' (compared to 170's anyway).

How much of a difference does wingloading vs. canopy performace make? Could i get in trouble even if my loading is fine?

I hope this makes sense.... Smile


Clarkey  (C 102598)

Aug 18, 2004, 3:38 AM
Post #2 of 21 (1110 views)
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Re: [Brodes] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Brodes,

Not sure if your profile is up to date, but it says you've been jumping a 270 sq ft canopy at a wing loading of 0.65. This would suggest you have an exit weight of 175 pounds which would put you on a 1.17 W/L on a 150 sq ft canopy, not a 0.85 W/L (I think when you calculated the new W/L you did sq ft divided by weight when you should calculate it the other way round).

A 1.17 W/L with your current experience would almost definitely be more aggressive than you should be considering at this stage.

You will find some really useful information here on the PD website on Wing Loadings and some common misconceptions about lighter jumpers (Follow link below).

PD Website

Clarkey.


Brodes

Aug 18, 2004, 3:42 AM
Post #3 of 21 (1106 views)
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Re: [Clarkey] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah thats what ive done, now i feel really stupid. Laugh

Does make much more sense though.


(This post was edited by Brodes on Aug 18, 2004, 3:45 AM)


Clarkey  (C 102598)

Aug 18, 2004, 3:58 AM
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Re: [Brodes] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

Better to feel stupid here rather than on final approach on that 150! Wink

Seriously though, if you've been jumping 270's so far, you'd be wise to try and jump on a couple of canopies with sizes in between the 270 and what you end up buying. I won't make any recommendations on size as I'm not an instructor and I haven't seen your canopy handling - but if say you end up buying a 190 or 170 (that both you and your instructor are confident in your abilities on), it would make the transition a little less intimidating if you could put at least a few jumps on something in the 220 - 240 range.


Brodes

Aug 18, 2004, 4:28 AM
Post #5 of 21 (1079 views)
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Re: [Clarkey] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

My main 'target' so far is to a 170, im at a small DZ and my canopy control has been recognised as good. Im just worried that at 176lb geared-up I'll get bored with a 170 easily. Then again, I will be dropping 100ft2 from this agonizing 270ft2 monster so a 170 should keep me enteratianed until ive got the cash to drop to a newer 150 after a few jumps...


(This post was edited by Brodes on Aug 18, 2004, 4:29 AM)


grega  (D 100020)

Aug 18, 2004, 4:39 AM
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Re: [Brodes] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

If you want to play it safe and be a good swooper someday, you won't/can't get bored on 170 for at least another 400 jumps.
If you're buying this canopy for less than 200 jumps, i'd recomend something in 200-220 range.

Unles you wanna rush it and risk... Crazy

just my thoughts...


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 18, 2004, 5:05 AM
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Re: [Brodes] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

150 huh?

Really.

Check out the attatched pic, thats me under my old Heatwave 170. Before I sold that canopy I had it dialed in and was nailing 200+ ft swoops with it. I've even taken a Sabre2 190 over 200 ft in a swoop before.

Ok, I guess you have to have a 150 before you have any performance, my bad.
Attachments: swooooooop-2.jpg (32.2 KB)


pilotdave  (D License)

Aug 18, 2004, 5:43 AM
Post #8 of 21 (1038 views)
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Re: [Brodes] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

You might be surprised how much quicker that 170 will be than what you're used to. My first canopy was a PD150 loaded at around .85. Most of my student jumps were on PD230s. I wondered how much difference there could possibly be between a 230 and 150 of the same, slow, boring type. Wow was I surprised! Even at such a light loading the 150 felt like it came in at 100 miles per hour compared to the 230s. Turns were so much quicker too. It was still docile and easy to fly, but it wasn't boring. After 100 jumps or so I demoed a couple of zero-p canopies and felt out all over again like every approach was at 100 miles an hour. Glad I started with a more docile canopy though. A zero-p 135 for my first canopy (as most of my instructors recommended) woulda just been too fast after jumping only slow student canopies.

Dave


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Aug 18, 2004, 6:49 AM
Post #9 of 21 (1004 views)
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Re: [Brodes] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Im just worried that at 176lb geared-up I'll get bored with a 170 easily.

How bored will you be if you downsize too quickly and find yourself busted up, in the hospital, with six months of physical therapy?

According to your profile, you've got 15 jumps. Take your time, downsize in steps, follow BillVon's downsizing checklist (Safety Section) for each step down prior to downsizing again.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 18, 2004, 8:04 AM
Post #10 of 21 (976 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
150 huh?

Really.

Check out the attatched pic, thats me under my old Heatwave 170. Before I sold that canopy I had it dialed in and was nailing 200+ ft swoops with it. I've even taken a Sabre2 190 over 200 ft in a swoop before.

Ok, I guess you have to have a 150 before you have any performance, my bad.
But Dave, aren't you loading that 170 at 2.0?LaughLaughLaugh


sillie1111  (C 36674)

Aug 18, 2004, 10:05 AM
Post #11 of 21 (926 views)
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Re: [Brodes] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

I know I only have 42 jumps but this was the advice I was given. Before making any decisions, you should take some sort of canopy control course. Take a look at your canopy control on video, you may feel like your ready for more performance under canopy but is everything else there to, accuracy can you land in a back yard, can you get back from a long spot? I took Scott Millers canopy control class and lerned so much about flying my canopy to the best of my abilities, I would recomend this class to anyone starting out in this sport. His class gave me the confidence to make my step down to a sabre 170, im 125lbs and dont see my self getting bored with this canopy for a long time. Until I can land on a that X every jump there is no need to go any smaller.
You may be pleasantly surprised at how much faster the 170 will be from the student gear you are jumping nowLaugh Belive me my first jump on non student gear a sabre2 190 I ended up in a corn field 25 ft past my landing area because you cover so much more ground faster while gliding!!!Wink

Hope you get under your own gear soon, be safeSly


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 18, 2004, 10:30 AM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I had some loading on that 170, 1.6-1.7:1...

Still a high-performance canopy even though it was a 170, though.Wink


SkydiveNFlorida  (C License)

Aug 18, 2004, 3:45 PM
Post #13 of 21 (859 views)
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Re: [grega] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you want to play it safe and be a good swooper someday, you won't/can't get bored on 170 for at least another 400 jumps.
If you're buying this canopy for less than 200 jumps, i'd recomend something in 200-220 range.

Unles you wanna rush it and risk... Crazy

just my thoughts...

That will vary person to person.

Demo, Demo, Demo! And, like has been said, definitely jump some in-between canopy sizes before going to a 170 (if that is what you choose).

Angela.


Brodes

Aug 18, 2004, 7:43 PM
Post #14 of 21 (831 views)
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Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks guys. Like I said, i want to log a lot of jumps on a 170 (which will be awesome after the 270) and get very comfortable before i fork out for a new 150. My main problem in choosing a canopy is that i dont have access to demo rigs or canopy courses here.

I was just really interested in the performance differences similar sized canopies could have due to their construction etc... Smile


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 18, 2004, 11:23 PM
Post #15 of 21 (811 views)
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Re: [Brodes] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My main problem in choosing a canopy is that i dont have access to demo rigs or canopy courses here.

Sounds like you need to save up some cash to make a trip to the US...

Eitherway, you're on the right track now, upsize, learn the skills needed (i.e. BillVon's list) and move on from there.

First comes consistant landings.

Second comes accuracy.

Thirdly comes downsizing and high performance landings.

Those three simple things make take 500+ jumps to accomplish, there's a reason...its not easy.


boags  (B 349323)

Aug 19, 2004, 6:08 AM
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Re: [Brodes] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

It doesnt necessarily have to be a course. Look at the back of your B-Rel Manual, Thats if you have started them yet. If not ask your manifest and they should be able to give you one. It shows you how different inputs affect your canopy. Front risers rear risers half brake turns. Open up high (let people know your doing this) and practice these moves above 1000ft. Then when you are familiar with them. Hit up one of your instructors to open up high with you and fly relative to you so you can actually see how much affect your inputs have (Dont forget your gloves its painfully cold on your hands above 10,000ft in winter). Play a bit of follow the leader. Maybe he will fly in behind you for a bit of CRW. I got such a rush of feeling another canopy slightly folding around the back of my legs (Scared of a canopy wrap). Although not compulsory they are trying to make it at our DZ in York. To do canopy handling courses for your B licence. APF rules are old, so many new people getting on high performance canopys early. I agree totally on this which is why I am one of the first on the DZ taking this course.

This is how I am learning to fly and it is a great idea especially if you have a high wing loading Wink


Cacophony  (D 23912)

Aug 19, 2004, 7:32 PM
Post #17 of 21 (721 views)
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Re: [boags] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

Perception is what really counts when it comes to canopy sizes. Like everyone has already said, you should probably try something in between a 270 and a 170 for a bit. Its not that you couldn't handle a 170 because you would be loading it too high, its that your perception of speed is way off from what a 170 will give you.

Wing loading is the biggest deciding factor on performance (of course there are a lot of other factors too). The design of the wing only increases that. Think about it like this........ You can kill yourself on any canopy very easily. The smaller you go the easier it is to do. If you go to a canopy that is too fast for you to mentally process there is no way you can handle a situation you are not used to. You should max out every canopy you jump before proceeding to a small size and allow your senses to adjust to handling things at a much faster pace. I went from a PD230 to a Sabre 170. It was a huge huge difference. Take advice from the people that can actually watch you land and be careful. Shattering a femur is not fun!!!!!


Squeak  (E 1313)

Aug 20, 2004, 2:46 AM
Post #18 of 21 (705 views)
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Re: [Brodes] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks guys. Like I said, i want to log a lot of jumps on a 170 (which will be awesome after the 270) and get very comfortable before i fork out for a new 150. My main problem in choosing a canopy is that i dont have access to demo rigs or canopy courses here.

I was just really interested in the performance differences similar sized canopies could have due to their construction etc... Smile
Hi Brodes,
you have some awsome fliers and pilots at Lower light get their input.
Also
Get some bucks to gether and try and get to a Learning Curve Camp at Ramblers in Tagoolawah in Qld. (yeah I know its a long way fro Sa but it's well worth it, I travelled there from WA).
You'll find here in Oz our Canopy progrssion is a lot more radical than in the States.
I had the same comcernes when I came off student status. All my instructors said get a 150, I wanted a 170 (I was the same weight as you), I jumped a 170 (down from 270)for 20 jumps and then got my Hornet 150, I've got over 250 jumps on it in 18months and I love it, I still have a couple of hundred jumps to go before I down size or change profiles.
But try and get ya butt to Ramblers, if you can't try nagambie they also have good coaching there.
Cool


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 20, 2004, 9:03 AM
Post #19 of 21 (674 views)
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Re: [Brodes] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

I've heard these recommendations. I think they might be Brian Germain's or John Leblanc's.

Under 100 jumps . . . no greater than 1:1 loading

100-200 . . . . . . . . no greater than 1.1

200-300 . . . . . . . . no greater than 1.2

300+ . . . . . . . . up to 1.3

No recommendations on when to go to 2.0.

I know these sound deadly dull to everyone out there dying to downsize and be really cool, but really, 1.3 is considered expert wingloading by most manufacturers. If you think you are an expert at 50 or 100 jumps, you are a digit.

Any thoughts?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 20, 2004, 9:26 AM
Post #20 of 21 (668 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

We've been proposing those limits as part of an integrated canopy control syllabus for years now. They were originally Brian's.


Praetorian  (B 27234)

Aug 20, 2004, 10:50 AM
Post #21 of 21 (656 views)
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Re: [billvon] 150, Loading vs. Performance [In reply to] Can't Post

as a rank novice I realise I'm just asking to get chewed here, but I was over 1:1 on student status with instructor blessing and never a bad landing, .. my first AFP jump at skydive chicago was almost 1:1
my current main is a 170 loaded at 1.1:1 I see no reason why I'd be better served by a lighter loading for the next 100+ jumps! I agree with limits on loading (and shape) but be a little more realistic and make differientation for ZP vs F111 mains. the answer is better training and evaluation regs that allow instructors to overrule them and NO grandfather clause. Set the numbers I'm replying to as "unless waved by instructor" set higher numbers as absolute 1.2:1 no fewer then X jumps UNWAVEABLE, no highly eliptical with less then X jumps, B, C and D lisences NEED to have skill tests included, a check dive for Freefall skills and someone watching how you fly your main, just like a drivers lisence your B,C or D should be good only for the main you tested on if you get your B on a 170 your trusted at a "b" rated skydiver only on a 170 or larger etc



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