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AFFIs-Intent of SIMS concerning group freefall training

 


skyhussy  (D 25431)

Aug 17, 2004, 7:59 PM
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AFFIs-Intent of SIMS concerning group freefall training Can't Post

hey guys- question for you...

the sims says that after students pass aff but prior to their a-license, when they are learning group freefall skills, they must be accompanied/assisted by a coach under the supervision of an instructor.

technically, someone with 12 jumps could do a hundred way if there was a coach/affi on the jump without breaking any rules...

so my question is where do you draw the line? what is the intent of the sims?

i'd love some feedback/perspectives...this issue has come up where I work and was wondering what kind of skydives are generally accepted for unlicensed skydivers.

thanks!


Deuce  (D 25597)

Aug 17, 2004, 8:15 PM
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Re: [skyhussy] AFFIs-Intent of SIMS concerning group freefall training [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a great question.

I'm really intrigued by the whole tunnel-rat phenomenon. We will have folks with really, really great "freefall" skills who probably can't track and don't have good canopy skills.

So if somebody has 100 tunnel hours, but 20 skydives, should they be doing "big way"?


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Aug 17, 2004, 8:32 PM
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Re: [skyhussy] AFFIs-Intent of SIMS concerning group freefall training [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
technically, someone with 12 jumps could do a hundred way if there was a coach/affi on the jump without breaking any rules...

I'm thinking that most 100 way L/O's are going to have a lot of input on that. Laugh

The intent was to have the coach be the "group" and to learn the proper procedures for swooping, docking, et.al. before moving up to four ways.

Having said that, there has been more than once that I've had to time-out a group going up with someone wth 10-12 jumps on a four way; so you're right the opportunity to misinterpret is there..


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Aug 17, 2004, 8:33 PM)


masher  (D 3806)

Aug 17, 2004, 8:33 PM
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Re: [skyhussy] AFFIs-Intent of SIMS concerning group freefall training [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a bit of stuff from the Aussie OpRegs. (some definitions: student=not A licenced, novice=not B licenced)

Over here, you need to have completed the B-rel table before you can do more than 2-ways. A student or novice cannot do more than 2-ways unless the DZSO authorises it.


In our system, you complete your training table (AFF/TAF/SL), then go onto the B-rel table. This is a series of 2-ways, culminating in 3 4-ways that teach you RW skills. Completion of this is compulsory for your B licence.

edit: The person that you do your jumps with is a tutor or instructor with an AFF or RW endorsement.

.

This seems to be a bit more formal than the US system. Hopefully our rules can give you some insight.

That said, one of my first jumps off student status was a 4-way. The 3 others were all AFF-Is, 2 were SL-Is and one was the DZSO. The jump basically consisted of my falling down while they did things around me.





This is a cut and paste from the OpRegs.

6.4. FLATFLY RW TRAINING DESCENTS

6.4.1. All Flatfly RW training descents shall be carried out under the supervision of a
Chief Instructor.

6.4.2. FLATFLY RW TRAINING DESCENT TABLE: To obtain Certificate "B" the Flatfly RW Training Table outlined in Appendix 2 and defined in the APF B licence Manual must be completed to the satisfaction of the DZSO. (Refer to 6.2.4 for exception.)

6.4.3. Each skill level of the Flatfly RW Training Descent Table must be performed without difficulty before the trainee is permitted to advance to the next skill level. Completion of this table requires a minimum of 10 minutes freefall time. Where the exit height permits it, more than one skill level may be completed on a single descent.

6.4.4. If an applicant for Certificate "B" has reached a degree of Flatfly RW proficiency outside of the APF framework, the DZSO shall satisfy himself as to the standard this person has reached and have him take up training at the appropriate skill level of the Flatfly RW Training Descent Table or make a declaration that his ability is equal to having completed the table.

6.4.5. The trainee must complete skill levels 1 to 6 of the Flatfly RW Training Descent
Table before participating in any other relative work descent except as follows:
(a) A student parachutist who has completed a Student Training Descent Table may also make flatfly RW descents with the holder of at least a Certificate E;
(b) A parachutist who holds a Certificate A may make flatfly RW descents with the holder of at least a Certificate D;
(c) Such descents shall be made only with the approval of the DZSO and shall be restricted to two person descents.

6.4.6. Parachutists who have not qualified for Certificate "B" shall not make Flatfly RW descents except under the direct supervision of an instructor.

6.4.7. Student parachutists shall not make a Flatfly RW descent before the last descent of the Student Training Descent Table except under the provisions of an alternative training descent table acceptable to the Director Instructors and the Director Safety. 6.4.8. Parachutists who are not qualified for Certificate "B" shall not participate in Flatfly RW with more than one person unless permission to do so is endorsed in their log book by the DZSO.


(This post was edited by masher on Aug 17, 2004, 8:34 PM)


skyhussy  (D 25431)

Aug 17, 2004, 9:14 PM
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Re: [BIGUN] AFFIs-Intent of SIMS concerning group freefall training [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm thinking that most 100 way L/O's are going to have a lot of input on that. Laugh

of course, a 100-way would definitely be the extreme example :)

i'm more curious about jumps in the middle/gray area.

Where I'm from "group" freefall means a two-way with a coach/instructor and potentially three-four ways towards the end of training.

but according to the rules, the only requirement for non-licensed skydivers is that a coach be present. Which means, realistically, the unlicensed skydiver could be on a six-way with a newly a-licensed skydiver as long as a coach/i is present. Just because that doesn't literally break a rule, does it go against the intent?

i ask, because I really don't know...

sometimes i wish there were stricter guidelines- that the sims said, "no more than a four-way" not because a five way would be unafes, but because if you don't draw the line, a 5-way becomes a 6 way, becomes a 10-way....

same thing with skill level of skydivers...if there's no rule that says "everyone except the unlicensed skydiver must have an instructional rating" or something, then whats to stop a 4-way with one coach, 2 30-jump wonders and a 12-jump student from going up...and should we stop them?

i guess i see it the same way as the dec. alt. for mals. we have them, because we have to draw the line. we teach our students that even line twists become a mal at our dec. altitude, not because we probably couldn't get one line twist out- but because we have to draw a line, a concrete, unquestionable line so we can guarantee landing a good canopy. we've probably all lost friends who died trying to correct a problem...

so, i hope that clarifies the intent of the post. if i had it my way, honestly, i would over-regulate everybody :) but since i can't (and shouldn't) I'm just trying to find a line i can live with (from a safety perspective) that still allows students the abiliy to learn and have fun...

suggestions?


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Aug 17, 2004, 9:28 PM
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Re: [skyhussy] AFFIs-Intent of SIMS concerning group freefall training [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of the DZs I've been to and our policy has been (as you stated):

Quote:
Where I'm from "group" freefall means a two-way with a coach/instructor and potentially three-fourways towards the end of training.

Quote:
same thing with skill level of skydivers...if there's no rule that says "everyone except the unlicensed skydiver must have an instructional rating" or something, then whats to stop a 4-way with one coach, 2 30-jump wonders and a 12-jump student from going up...and should we stop them?

As I stated earlier, sometimes you'll get a Coach that is a little over the line and you've got to put a stop to it.

It's really been my experience that most DZ's utilize the progression you mention in section one. You do know that you can make specific recommendations to the USPA S&TA Director regarding suggestions for clarifying "Intent" in the next SIMS version?


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Aug 17, 2004, 9:28 PM)


dippymoo  (D License)

Aug 18, 2004, 2:13 PM
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Re: [skyhussy] AFFIs-Intent of SIMS concerning group freefall training [In reply to] Can't Post

At our DZ no student may jump with anyone who is not a USPA rated coach or Instructor until they are licensed. Very few students do more than 2 ways on their coached jumps and this is usually only if they happen to be married to and instructor (gotta love nepotism) our system only requires 3 coached jumps in the 25 jupm program so its more benefical to the student to keep it 2 ways.


tspillers  (D 21601)

Aug 19, 2004, 9:32 AM
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Re: [skyhussy] AFFIs-Intent of SIMS concerning group freefall training [In reply to] Can't Post

We have had people that have finished their A-license card with the exception of the check dive and Oral quiz and maybe 1 other thing (jump numbers, or accuracies). We have taken them on small groups (4-usually) and generally everyone one else has some rating. I did take a 3 way with someone in this situation and the 3rd was a low timer.

Todd


larsrulz  (C 34603)

Aug 23, 2004, 12:02 PM
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Re: [skyhussy] AFFIs-Intent of SIMS concerning group freefall training [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a coach, not an AFFI (nor any other sort of I), but this question holds the same for me. My DZ also says students may only jump with instructional rating holders. I believe that there shouldn't be a need for restriction. If there was a 100 hour tunnel rat who showed that they had good tracking and canopy skills after finishing Cat H but before their A check, then I wouldn't think putting them on a 6-way would be completely out of the question, especially if the other 5 had ratings. Self-regulation needs to be given a chance before restriction; I could be completely wrong, but I doubt there are any dropzones that are throwing 20 jump wonders on 12-ways. If the restrictions have to cover every little detail, then the SIM would be ten times as thick.


skr  (D 981)

Aug 23, 2004, 7:57 PM
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Re: [skyhussy] AFFIs-Intent of SIMS concerning group freefall training [In reply to] Can't Post

 
>so my question is where do you draw the line?

In recent years, with lawsuits in mind, I draw a much
stricter, by the book line, even when I'm sure it would
be otherwise OK.

One day I had a really sharp senior from the Air Force
Academy who I had worked with before. He caught on
to everything right away. Among other things he was
a glider instructor with several thousand hours.

The winds were a little over the student limit and I said
no and told him why.

Now he probably understood those winds better than I
did but I didn't want to be sitting in court some day with
some lawyer trying to show that I had a pattern of breaking
the rules when what I was really doing was using my
fucking judgement.

(Yes, I do think this aspect of things sucks :-) :-)
(but lawyers are a hazard the same way power lines
(and buildings are.



Another example: someone jumped a rig and while I was
helping him repack it for another jump we noticed the seal
had broken.

Before this lawsuit era we would have just finished packing
it and dealt with the seal at the end of the day.

Maybe I've gone too far but what kind of pushed me over
the edge was when some dickhead sued someone for
not breaking up right on an 8 way, and won, in a Canadian
court.



In the A license phase I don't put much emphasis on the
freefall stuff anyway. Probably 80% of my effort is in how
to be a parachute jumper: canopy control, exit separation,
gear maintenance etc.

That's what they need most in their early jumps.

Freefall is like the icing on the cake.



I'm wondering whether other instructors have been affected
in a similar way.

Skr


tspillers  (D 21601)

Aug 26, 2004, 2:10 PM
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Re: [skr] AFFIs-Intent of SIMS concerning group freefall training [In reply to] Can't Post

But in this case, there is no rule breaking. By the rule, a coach level student could be on the world record as long as there was a coach on the load...BY THE RULE

So for this, I think common sense must come into play. Yes legally you could be on this 4,6,8-way with us, but lets go work on some specific skills first. If you have one of those indiviuals that has the flying skills (generally would be the base anyway), has good judgement, can tack well enough or will pull in place (pre-planned), and has the canopy awareness (pulling in place would make that even easier), then yes, it meets the rule as it is written.

Now if this is a problem, then the rules need to be changed. On a similar note, I won't take a non-rated AFF with me on a harness hold. By the book, they could go out and take grippers. I won't do it, but I would have to guess it has been done and they aren't breaking the rule (intnet maybe).

So the question goes full cirlce. What was the board's intent in that rule and does it need to be changed to reflect the intent? Or, is it written and read perfectly as intended?

Todd


DanG  (D 22351)

Sep 23, 2004, 9:52 PM
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Re: [tspillers] AFFIs-Intent of SIMS concerning group freefall training [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
By the rule, a coach level student could be on the world record as long as there was a coach on the load...BY THE RULE

Not to be a dick, but you have to hold a B license to participate in record attempts.Wink

I've gone up with non-licensed students on four ways before, but only with other rating holders and with students who are capable. At some point you have to rely on the judgement of the people USPA has determined are capable of teaching the sport. You can't regulate everything.

- Dan G


tspillers  (D 21601)

Sep 24, 2004, 4:25 AM
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Re: [DanG] AFFIs-Intent of SIMS concerning group freefall training [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, I thought it was a C.

Yes, that whole judgement thing. I am trying to figure out how to teach that to people. No luck so far...Crazy

Now I have to tear up, uh I mean study the new SIMS



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