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Newbies jumping together.

 

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base698  (D 23456)

Aug 13, 2004, 8:36 AM
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Newbies jumping together. Can't Post

I have some friends with about 30 jumps traveling the east coast. They say no matter were they go noone allows them to jump together. They both have their A-license. When did this start happening? I was always allowed to jump with 1 other person starting out. Anyone think its a good idea?


Dougiefresh  (Student)

Aug 13, 2004, 8:45 AM
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Re: [base698] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've got 50 and I'm still jumping alone for the most part. Not only becuase I want to, but because that's what my instructors and S+TA told me to do. Their opinion is that it is a good idea to have at least one person in the air know what they're doing and can get the hell away if and when the noob screws up.

A license doesn't directly relate to skill. So yeah, your friends might be able to jump safely together and have a lot of fun, but it's probably not as safe as jumping with more experienced people.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Aug 13, 2004, 8:45 AM
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Re: [base698] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

Depends on what they're doing.

Trying to freefly, hell no. Doing RW stufF, can't see why not.

Any more details on what they're actually trying to do out there?

Blues,
Ian


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Aug 13, 2004, 8:51 AM
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Re: [base698] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think noobs jumping together is a good idea.

UK we have a system whereby there can only be a maximum of 1 person on any dive who does not have their FS1.

FS1 is a freefall qualification obtained by demonstrating all sorst of formation skydiving abilities, culminating in being able to pull off successful 4-ways.

The logic is that so long as there's only one person who can't control themselves everyone else will always be able to get out of their way.

If there are two noobs on a dive... they could hit each other. Plus everyone else has to concentrate on two places at once.

People express the same gripes about newby FFers. It's commonly accepted that two people who can only just hold sit/HD shouldn't be in the air with each other... despite the speed differences, why should it be any different with flat?


MarkM  (C 35089)

Aug 13, 2004, 9:08 AM
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
People express the same gripes about newby FFers. It's commonly accepted that two people who can only just hold sit/HD shouldn't be in the air with each other... despite the speed differences, why should it be any different with flat?

Despite the speed differences? It's entirely because of the speed differences and because losing stability can cause such rapid changes in speed.

When you have your A you should have already demonstrated the basic skills needed for RW and done some 2 way RW coached jumps. I wouldn't jump on a 8 way noob dive, but I've done a lot of 2 way noob dives. They rarely were sucessful, but they were a lot of fun and safe.


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Aug 13, 2004, 9:19 AM
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Re: [MarkM] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
When you have your A you should have already demonstrated the basic skills needed for RW

That's not the stance the BPA has. They feel that your A proves you have demonstrated the ability to fall through the air without killing yourself.

Once you have your FS1 you have demonstrated you have the ability to fall through the air without killing anyone else. That's a big difference.

What the USPA does is a different matter altogether of couse. But I can't agree that two 25 jump wonders have the skills required to not bash into each other occationally. Sometimes they'll be fine of course... but should "sometimes" be enough?


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Aug 13, 2004, 9:57 AM
Post #7 of 68 (2688 views)
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Re: [base698] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When did this start happening?

A few weeks ago there was an incident where two newbies were jumping together, lost altitude awareness, and opened low. I believe one or both may have had a cypres fire. One of the jumpers clipped a tree on landing and was critically injured. I'm not aware of her current condition, but shortly after the incident she was unresponsive in hospital. To make matters worse, she didn't have insurance, but did have two kids and a mortgage. It's a very crappy situation no matter which way you look at it.

Knowledge and awareness of that incident is undoubtedly reminding DZO's that two newbies jumping together isn't always smart.

I'm not sure why you're complaining. You'll learn more and have more fun if you jump with more experienced people.

_Am


Ruffles  (A 42288)

Aug 13, 2004, 11:21 AM
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Re: [AndyMan] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

I am a newbie and I generally try to aviod posting, but I feel especially passionate about this so here goes...

Despite all of the talk about what a tight knit family skydiving is, there are many places where experienced people won't give you the time of day when you jump there or they do so many tandems/AFFs that they don't have enough time during the day to jump with you. That leaves you two options: 1) Jump alone for the next 100 jumps 2)Jump with other relatively new people. I think its ridiculous to expect someone to jump alone for 50 jumps. If you jump alone, you have no reference points, so you don't learn much about using your body to fly yourself around and dock safely. Those 50 jumps will be an expensive waste. If newbies were trying to do free-flying, certainly a different story as FF speeds and collision risks increase. But I admantly feel there is nothing wrong with two newbies doing 2-way RW. Its the only way to learn and with a high break-off the risk is minimal.
My heated passion on this stems from a skydiving culture that emphasizes safety but then turns around and fails to help their youngins' grow by coaching and jumping with them (free) post-A license, unless you want to pay for expensive camps..OK, rant over....


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Aug 13, 2004, 11:36 AM
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Re: [Ruffles] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree completely, it is absolutely absurd for someone to jump alone for 50 jumps.

You mention two choices.

1) Jump alone for the next 100 jumps.2
2) Jump with other relatively new people.

I see a 3rd choice.

3) Find a different dropzone, or complain to management until they fix things.

I've done a lot of traveling to a lot of differnet dropzones. Many small, many big. I've never had problems finding people of every and all experience level to jump with.

Most DZ's actively desginate a person to work with young jumpers. Often this person is on staff, sometimes it's just a dude who likes jumping with newbies.

Your profile says you jump at Skydive San Diego. I do not believe for a minute that there's a shortage of people for a newbie to jump with in Southern California.

_Am


Jeth  (C 37471)

Aug 13, 2004, 1:55 PM
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Re: [Ruffles] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, I don't know squat, but I wanted to chime in since I was just discussing this with someone yesterday.

I have a friend who has 20+ jumps and I thought she could jump with another friend with 30+ jumps. But then she said the instructors told her to only jump with 100+ people.
My first thought was -- what??!!!? I have been looking foward to my graduation so that I can do a fun 2-way with my friend. Now I find out that I am supposed to wait till she has 100+ jumps??
I definitely don't want to be jumping solo, and I also don't care if I jump perfectly every time. I have heard many people say that the jumps that they totally hosed up were some of their funnest ones! I just want to do a 2-way with my friend so we can have some FUN up there! If we can get stable, and we can track away at break-off time, how are we so unsafe??

I guess I feel like just by having someone with 100+ jumps with me isn't going to make the dive that much safer. And after getting thru AFP, I just want to jump with the people who still remember what it's like. (And have fun with the friends I made along the way)

JMHO...


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Aug 13, 2004, 2:37 PM
Post #11 of 68 (2564 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
People express the same gripes about newby FFers. It's commonly accepted that two people who can only just hold sit/HD shouldn't be in the air with each other... despite the speed differences, why should it be any different with flat?

The speed and body position differences are what make low-jump-number flat flying safer. You can't accidentally end up with a 40 MPH change in speed and loosing stability is difficult.

You don't know which person is moving so you might not learn as much or progress as quickly.

Graduating from AFF (7 jumps) requires being able to remain altitude aware, hold heading, turn, change fall-rate, and track in a straight line. As long as you didn't forget that and aren't to aggressive (we touch our friends gently in freefall!) an all-newbie 2-way isn't unsafe.

Larger formations are a bad idea because you're more likely to have people that don't make it in and aren't yet fully aware of what's going on.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Aug 13, 2004, 2:42 PM)


mnischalke  (D 26290)

Aug 13, 2004, 3:05 PM
Post #12 of 68 (2560 views)
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Re: [base698] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

so, ummm, an A license isn't an A license anymore?

Sounds to me that if the consensus is that two licensed skydivers should not be jumping together based solely on jump numbers, folks need to take this up with the USPA and increase the jump-number requirement for the A license. It used to be 20. Now it's 25. Maybe it should be 50, or maybe 100.

Maybe A license skydivers shouldn't jump out of planes at all, or just do tandems, being that it's so dangerous and stuff.Tongue


chutem  (A 45827)

Aug 13, 2004, 3:27 PM
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Re: [mnischalke] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

The wife and I are on coach jumps now, working on A license. If we are not going to be able to jump together for 100 jumps it sure would have been nice to find this out befor spending so much cash. Not that I wouldn't jump over it, but would have been nice to know. Jumping together is a goal we are both looking fwd. to. I guess I will have to ask when we go back to eloy monday.

You guys are bumming me out.

James


Ruffles  (A 42288)

Aug 13, 2004, 3:39 PM
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Re: [AndyMan] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

I do jump as SSD Andy, and the problem isn't the number of people, its the number of people willing to make jumps with me and other 100-jump wonders. The staff (the majority of them anyway) are cool as hell and have helped me when they can, but they do high volume AFF and tandems and the time just isn't there. The So-Cal culture is very stand-offish for newbies however, (this may not be true in other parts of the country) and I have jumped at three DZs down here with the same experience:: My friend and I show up to jump, and unless there's another newbie, the other Skygods are too cool to spend time teaching youngsters leaving us to jump by ourselves. Three DZs, three identical snubbings. I swear to god when I become an experienced jumper, I'm gonna dedicate my jumping time to teaching new people.... without asking for profits.

BTW-My original post was not actually in reply to yours, I haven't got the "click to reply" concept down yet, so I wasn't countering your earlier statements.


surfers98  (C License)

Aug 13, 2004, 4:03 PM
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Re: [Ruffles] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Clark,

I'm a newbie that started jumping at SSD in the spring and have found there are definitely a few over-100's but non-skygods willing to impart some of their knowledge and experience, not to mention jump with newbies. Keep hunting around, asking questions, and bringing beer, after all, those skygods started somewhere. I think some of the experienced jumpers actually really enjoy jumping with us newbies, particularly if they're interested in pursuing an AFF instructors rating.


base698  (D 23456)

Aug 13, 2004, 5:29 PM
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Re: [AndyMan] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A few weeks ago there was an incident where two newbies were jumping together, lost altitude awareness, and opened low

This could easily have been:

Quote:
A few weeks ago there was an incident where two highly experienced jumpers were jumping together, lost altitude awareness, and opened low

Maybe all of us should just do solos? I thought the point of A license was you demonstrated enough ability to jump by yourself and not kill anyone else like was previously stated.


MakeItHappen

Aug 13, 2004, 5:39 PM
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Re: [Ruffles] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
..If you jump alone, you have no reference points, so you don't learn much about using your body to fly yourself around and dock safely. Those 50 jumps will be an expensive waste.


See Newbie Blues

In reply to:
But I admantly feel there is nothing wrong with two newbies doing 2-way RW.

I remember watching a 2-way from the ground many years ago. They appeared to break off at 3,500 or so (the regular breakoff altitude of the time). Then it looked like they were trying 'for one more point'. It looked like they actually docked again. Turns out that they tracked a bit, stopped tracking and then backslide towards each other. They opened almost at the same altitude, facing away from each other. Neither one of them had any idea of how close they were. They both had 50-ish jumps or so.

Two NGs can jump together, but they ought to have at least one experienced person with them.

In reply to:
The So-Cal culture is very stand-offish for newbies however, (this may not be true in other parts of the country) and I have jumped at three DZs down here with the same experience:: My friend and I show up to jump, and unless there's another newbie, the other Skygods are too cool to spend time teaching youngsters leaving us to jump by ourselves. Three DZs, three identical snubbings.

I think you might want to consider the 'other' side of this. Most experienced jumpers show up for a pre-planned day of jumping. They email back-n-forth and ask their friends 'Hey do you want to do 8-way (or whatever) this Saturday?'

On days they 'just show up', they don't know you anymore than you know them. You have to socialize with them, perhaps over the course of several weekends or months.

One time after a day of jumping, I chatted at the BombShelter with 3 people that had just done the their first AFF jump. I learned their names. I saw them out there over the next few months as they progressed. Then this one day, I was chatting with them in the packing area and was not on any load or doing anything special. I asked them what they were doing. They (two of the 3) were on the next Skyvan. They each had about 30 jumps apiece. I asked if I could jump with them. There was room on the plane, so we did their very first launched exit from the skyvan and a couple of other points.

It is unusual for someone with +5500 jumps to ask on a load with 30 jump folks, especially at a big DZ like Perris. The normal thing is for the NG to ask on the experienced jumper's load or ask them to do a jump with them sometime. When I had less than 100 jumps, I asked Lizard and Dave Holmes every weekend for 3 months to do a jump with them. I finally got to jump with them on an Early Bird load (something like $7.00)

Keep in mind that jumps are just as expensive for experienced jumpers as it is for NGs. I try and do about $200 worth of jumps with NGs each year. That's only 10 jumps, but that is all I can afford. By the end of May this year, I had already spent my yearly allocation of jump money.

I knew this one guy that used to sit in his lawn chair 'waiting to be asked on a load'. I went around asking on loads. I got a lot of 'No's, but I also got on loads I would have never been on if I did not ask. This was back when I had 100-200 jumps.

NGs have to do their part in meeting and becoming friends with the experienced jumpers and 'bugging' them to jump with them.

It is a two-way street. Just because an experienced jumper helps you pack or untangle a cutaway or tells you jump stories at the bar the night before or explains something, does not mean they can always jump with a NG at a moment's notice. Keep asking on loads. All experienced jumpers have gone through this.

.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Aug 13, 2004, 6:23 PM
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Re: [Ruffles] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

I know Perris is really good at hooking up people with load organizers. Have you walked up to manifest and said "Hi! I've got 80 jumps, and am looking for people to jump with."

Perris usually has paid load organizers just for that purpose...

_Am


Flyer2Diver  (B 31162)

Aug 13, 2004, 9:02 PM
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Re: [AndyMan] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A few weeks ago there was an incident where two newbies were jumping together, lost altitude awareness, and opened low. I believe one or both may have had a cypres fire.

A few months ago I saw nearly the exact same thing - except it was two experienced jumpers doing a 2-way freefly jump. One had a cypres fire and two-out, which put him in the hospital. My point is, this isn't just something newbies do - it can happen to anyone, especially when learning something new. It is easy to be so focused on learning some new skill that you forget to check altitude. I don't think the answer is to require newbies to jump with experienced jumpers only. I'd much rather spend my energy trying to educate students on the causes of loss of altitude awareness.

Personally, I never felt the slightest bit unsafe doing jumps with other newbies, as long as I considered them to be "heads up".

Just my .02


nael  (D License)

Aug 13, 2004, 11:36 PM
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I remember watching a 2-way from the ground many years ago. They appeared to break off at 3,500 or so (the regular breakoff altitude of the time). Then it looked like they were trying 'for one more point'. It looked like they actually docked again. Turns out that they tracked a bit, stopped tracking and then backslide towards each other. They opened almost at the same altitude, facing away from each other. Neither one of them had any idea of how close they were. They both had 50-ish jumps or so.

Two NGs can jump together, but they ought to have at least one experienced person with them.

In this instance, what could an experienced jumper possibly have done if they had collided on opening? The experienced jumper would also have tracked away and would be of no use at all.

At my dz if you have your A licence you can jump with other A licenced jumpers, if you have also completed up to and including level 6 of the b-rel jumps, which are basically coached 2 way RW jumps (there are 10 levels all together). Seems to work well, although we just screw up all the RW jumps together anyway!


skyyhi  (B 26847)

Aug 14, 2004, 7:06 AM
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Re: [Ruffles] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

Come to Elsinore or Perris. We have FREE. . .yes, I said FREE 2-way camps at both dropzones. You get coached by VERY EXPERIENCED jumpers and you learn so much and advance so quickly that it is amazing. At Elsinore the camp is called ExCel and is run by Melanie Curtis. All you do is pay for your jumps - like always. At Perris the 2-way skills camp is run by MJ. Same there. . .just pay for your jumps. Both of these people are EXCELLENT coaches. I have been doing these camps since jump 25 when I got licensed. I have done a 4-way SSL competition and will be competing at Nationals. . .all in my first year of skydiving. So, while I understand what you are saying, you are here in southern california where there are TONS of ways to get on jumps with better people. Take the time to come on out. . .heck, PM me and I will introduce you around when you are out. . .


MarkM  (C 35089)

Aug 14, 2004, 9:11 AM
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What the USPA does is a different matter altogether of couse. But I can't agree that two 25 jump wonders have the skills required to not bash into each other occationally. Sometimes they'll be fine of course... but should "sometimes" be enough?

Huh? Sometimes extremely experienced teams will bash into each other causing black eyes and bruised faces even through a full face helmet. Should they not be jumping together?

I have no idea what the BPA license requirements are, but in order to get your USPA A license you have to demonstrate certain 2 way RW skills with an experienced instructor or coach.

The ability to just fall through the air without killing yourself is AFF graduate status. And no, they're not allowed to jump with anyone else but a coach or instructor.

Where are all of these newly A licensed graduates killing or maiming each other doing zoo 2 ways on their bellies that this has suddenly become an issue?


somethinelse  (A 46324)

Aug 14, 2004, 1:21 PM
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey, GOOD POST! &Thanx for "NEWBIE BLUES" link.

I'm a woman in IAF training at a small DZ. I have often seen some of the fun jumpers (with 300-400+jumps) help out students with planning, dirt dives and even arranging video to help them with their progress.

I came into this sport alone, without anybody coming along in training with me or for moral support. Early on this summer I said to another student something about my "BEING ALONE"...And he said to me, "WELL, YOU GOT US NOW."Cool
I'm already missing the comradery of those who've moved on. I really do LOVE the bunch at my DZ!

Being a woman in such a MALE DOMINATED SPORT has a whole bunch of complications...and now I gotta reach out to (unfamiliar) EXPERIENCED JUMPERS to jump with and to get their input...

PLEASE can you give some valuable tips on WHO to approach, WHEN? & WHAT to ask them about their jumping & tell about my training etc, so that the planning, jumps, my skills continue to go well??????

THANX! SmileLILA.


(This post was edited by somethinelse on Aug 14, 2004, 5:12 PM)


cvfd1399  (B 27544)

Aug 14, 2004, 1:24 PM
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Re: [somethinelse] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just hang out and talk, make conversations about gear, their jumping history, anything to break the ice, and it usually leads to good things.


Unparagoned  (C 104563)

Aug 14, 2004, 1:53 PM
Post #25 of 68 (2397 views)
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Re: [Ruffles] Newbies jumping together. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do jump as SSD Andy, and the problem isn't the number of people, its the number of people willing to make jumps with me and other 100-jump wonders. The staff (the majority of them anyway) are cool as hell and have helped me when they can, but they do high volume AFF and tandems and the time just isn't there. The So-Cal culture is very stand-offish for newbies however, (this may not be true in other parts of the country) and I have jumped at three DZs down here with the same experience:: My friend and I show up to jump, and unless there's another newbie, the other Skygods are too cool to spend time teaching youngsters leaving us to jump by ourselves. Three DZs, three identical snubbings. I swear to god when I become an experienced jumper, I'm gonna dedicate my jumping time to teaching new people.... without asking for profits.
That sucks. At my dropzone things are very different. I think there is a cycle going on where, when people are newbies more experienced people jump with them, so when these newbies become more experienced they know what it is like for people to jump with them, so they jump with more newbies, etc. Anyway I get offers from people wanting to jump with me & someone with a video wanting to jump with you is very useful. I've found someone more experienced than me and planned a 2-way which turned into a 3-way & then another more experienced person came in making it a 4 way with a camera man :)

From my experience at attempting to do a 2 way with people who have 75+ jumps, two people with 30 or so jumps are likely to be no-where near each other/could lose track of each other, one could be above the other, etc. I'm not sure what the situation is there in the US, but here in the uk we have to gets coaching for fs1. Maybe you can pay for an instructors slot as well and get some coaching, once they can see you are good enough to jump with other low timers they may let you


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