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Turning Cypress on for IAD

 


KevinSpencer  (C 3263)

Aug 9, 2004, 6:37 PM
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Turning Cypress on for IAD Can't Post

I'm from a very small Canadian DZ. After several months of climbouts and training I got the go ahead to dispatch (IAD hanging exit) students on their pratice pulls. My question to you, "Is it smart to turn on your Cypress." The whole idea of climbing out onto the wing with your back exposed to the prop of a C182 sort of bothers me. If that thing ever miss fires my reserve into the prop pretty much everyone on the plane is dead. The 3 other instructors at the DZ don't have an AAD. Then on the other hand say if I slip and get knocked out (which I think will never happen but you can't be too sure) the AAD will save my life. So if your an IAD instructor can you let me know.


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 9, 2004, 7:08 PM
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Re: [KevinSpencer] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

What AAD's are you using?

I would think that with modern AADs it would be a non-issue, much safer to have a student with one then without one.

However, I am not a SL/IAD rated instructor so take my opinion or leave it.


nightjumps  (D 23385)

Aug 9, 2004, 8:56 PM
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Re: [KevinSpencer] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The whole idea of climbing out onto the wing with your back exposed to the prop of a C182 sort of bothers me.

I am VERy confused by this statement. Exactly how are you climbing out that your reserve is exposed to the prop???

When I climb out with the student, we're side by side facing forward. I have one hand on the strut, both feet on the step, and my hand with their P/C in their back the whole way.

Please elaborate.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 9, 2004, 9:46 PM
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Re: [KevinSpencer] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

For any jumper, the tail behind you is more dangerous than the propellor in front of you. If you are sitting in the crotch of the plane(where the strut joins the fuselage) facing to the rear, and your main or reserve come out and goes below the strut, you're in a world of hurt. I've seen unintentional deployments on mains and reserves (been the victim of both), but never Cypress caused. I'm going to say it's way down on the worry list. My 2 cents.


JYorkster  (D 23658)

Aug 10, 2004, 4:36 AM
Post #5 of 21 (1567 views)
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Re: [KevinSpencer] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

You're more likely to have a main opening due to poor maintenance, worn closing loop, etc, than a faulty cypres fire. Also, like Bigun said, you should not have your back facing the prop anyway. For IAD, you should be out of the plane, next to the student, 90 degrees to the line of flight.

Because you're working with students, I think you're safer with it on than with it off.

Just my 2 cents,
Rock
(S/L and IAD I)


Premier Remster  (C License)

Aug 10, 2004, 6:22 AM
Post #6 of 21 (1555 views)
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Re: [nightjumps] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
When I climb out with the student, we're side by side facing forward. I have one hand on the strut, both feet on the step, and my hand with their P/C in their back the whole way.

Dont know if this is a Canada vs USA technique issue, but thats not how we (well, I) are trained to do IADs.

From a Cesna, I'll have my left hand on the strut, fairly far out, my right hand on the yoke of the student's container holding the PC, left foot on the step/wheel, and right foot on the back edge of the door. My Container would be roughly facing the 10 o'clock direction of the plane axis, maybe a bit angled upward.

By the way, I woulnt worry too much about a Cypress in this situation. The bigger risk is one of your pins getting puched, rubbing on the door frame while climbing out.


nightjumps  (D 23385)

Aug 10, 2004, 6:56 AM
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Re: [Remster] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'll have my left hand on the strut, fairly far out, my right hand on the yoke of the student's container holding the PC, left foot on the step/wheel, and right foot on the back edge of the door. My Container would be roughly facing the 10 o'clock direction of the plane axis, maybe a bit angled upward.

I think we "may" be doing the same thing during the initial climbout, in which my body is about the same. If you stop there, then that's where the difference begins. As the student is swinging out on the strut, my right foot then gets brought to the right furthest edge of the strut and I am squatting on the step facing forward so that I am inches from their face and can ensure my right arm with the P/C and bridle remains in the center of their back.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Aug 10, 2004, 7:01 AM
Post #8 of 21 (1543 views)
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Re: [nightjumps] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Its been a while since I dispatched, but from memory, I end up pretty close to their faces too... As long as you really get out there. I saw some IADs from a DZ I wont name in McGowans' Greatest Hits where the Instructor (who actually is the DZO) barelly gets out the plane....Unsure


MajorDad  (D 579)

Aug 10, 2004, 11:40 AM
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Re: [Remster] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Remi did a pretty good description on the JM climbout for an IAD.

I always had my cypress on when I was dispatching and never gave it a second thought as it was well outside of the activation parameters.

Proper climbout/climb-in to avoiding brushing of the pin while managing the student was higher on the priority list.

If you are new to jumpmastering, you may (if you haven't done so) want to have the chief instructor watch and critique your climbout technique.


d604  (D 604)

Aug 10, 2004, 1:08 PM
Post #10 of 21 (1502 views)
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Re: [KevinSpencer] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey, if your cypress is properly maintained it is fine, your better off having it for the scenario (although very unlikely) you described. Other s have said it but you will want to work on not having your rig facing the prop, try to get it so that it's facing up and/or up and back, it's not hard to learn.
Sean
CSPA Instructor A


KevinSpencer  (C 3263)

Aug 10, 2004, 8:30 PM
Post #11 of 21 (1478 views)
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Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

After watching myself dispatch, My back is faced more to the door then anything. I'll keep my cypress on and a close watch on my Main, thank you


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Aug 12, 2004, 1:33 PM
Post #12 of 21 (1426 views)
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Re: [KevinSpencer] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

  This whole argument makes you kinda miss static lines doesnt it (I know there are a quite a few DZs using static lines, and most likely more SL than IAD)? I know I was personally quite a bit more comfortable when I was putting out static lines. We train IAD at my DZ, and like others I cant understand why you would be back to the prop?
On a related note, when we used static lines we never had the pilot put in flaps. Its my understanding that 10 degrees of flap is supposed to help any potential premature opening (on the student) go under the horizontal stabilizer. Is this standard, do you do it at your DZ, is the reasoning I give correct?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 12, 2004, 10:41 PM
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Re: [skydived19006] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of the IAD Instructors at Pitt Meadows wear Cypres and they have dropped thousands of students without accidental deployments.
Most IAD instructors wear Cypres and I have never heard of their reserves deploy unexpectedly.
Instructors are supposed to lead by example. Leading by example includes wearing modern AADs and turning them on.


teason  (D 18902)

Aug 17, 2004, 7:07 PM
Post #14 of 21 (1344 views)
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Re: [nightjumps] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

How do you kepp the PC out of the burble? When the student releases, the JM should bring the pilotchute down and off to the side, about arms length from the burble. The way you're describing would seem to require alot of twisting.

The only other way to pitch the PC that way is to bring it up, releasing it above the head. That method is potentially dangerous as it increases the risk of the student entangling with the PC!

I think I must be missing something.
Could you elaborate?


teason  (D 18902)

Aug 17, 2004, 7:09 PM
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Re: [Remster] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

ARRRGGHH!
I know the DZ and the video!

Gawd! It drives me freakin' nuts everytimr I see it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mad


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Aug 17, 2004, 8:03 PM
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Re: [teason] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

THis is nightjumps...changed my handle to Bigun.

Quote:
How do you kepp the PC out of the burble? When the student releases, the JM should bring the pilotchute down and off to the side, about arms length from the burble. The way you're describing would seem to require alot of twisting.

You want to keep the P/C in the burble during the climbout. It's when you tell the student to go and they release that you toss it down and aside. No twisting involved.


teason  (D 18902)

Aug 17, 2004, 8:32 PM
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Re: [BIGUN] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

OK ... DUH!

My question was about what you do on the release.
I'm trying to picture a clean throw but I'm having trouble.
Can you tell me where you release the pilotchute in relation to the student?
What is your timing?
What is your body orientation?
Have you seen your deployments on video?

I've watched probably about 7000 or 8000 IAD students (most of which I dispatched) on video in slow mo and with 4-5 still pictures taken in a 1.5 sec window. I've seen all types of releases and timings as well as pilotchute inflations.
It doesn't matter how you follow your student out as long as you can
1.) control the student
2.) protect the gear
3.) deal with emergencies
4.) ensure a proper deployment

I have no idea about the first 3, I assume you do it well, but I'm trying to visualize the 4th.

Please elaborate, I'm having trouble picturing your technique during the student's release.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Aug 17, 2004, 8:45 PM
Post #18 of 21 (1332 views)
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Re: [teason] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
4.) ensure a proper deployment

It is hard to visualize textually, but I'll try. First,I should share with you that I've got a 38" each.

Picture me on the step with both feet squatting down facing forward, left hand on the strut, right hand in their back in the burble.

The student is hanging on the strut and I give the the "Go" command. As soon as they let go, I flick my arm back and down at about eight o'clock from their position and to the rear As the P/C catches air and begins inflatig, they too are falling. By throwing it at their eight o'clock as they release, the P/C come to about nine-o'clock (perpendicular to them) catches the air and whips behind them.

That help?


Premier Remster  (C License)

Aug 18, 2004, 6:29 AM
Post #19 of 21 (1319 views)
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Re: [teason] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
ARRRGGHH!
I know the DZ and the video!

hehehe... I knew that would rile up some fellow northerners!


As far as Bigun's method, if I end up dispaching again, I'll stick to the CSPA method... I feel it allows better positioning of the PC in the airstream and of the instructor to see the jump better, without a lot of moving around on the step... Sorry Biguns! Smile


teason  (D 18902)

Aug 18, 2004, 6:40 AM
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Re: [BIGUN] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

OK I think I can see it now, sounds like good PC placement. ThanksSmile

I'm with Remster, though, you can't teach and old dog yadda yadda...

I also like being able to touch the students head/face while they are hanging. It helps to get their head up.




BIGUN  (D 23385)

Aug 18, 2004, 6:55 AM
Post #21 of 21 (1314 views)
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Re: [Remster] Turning Cypress on for IAD [In reply to] Can't Post

No worries, mate. It's kinda like packing - a little different isn't the same as wrong. I have a bit of an advantage on most because of my length.



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