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Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03?

 

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Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Jul 21, 2004, 1:59 PM
Post #1 of 29 (2072 views)
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Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? Can't Post

I was wondering instructors feeling on putting students out on Javelin containers with the adjustable MLW's that are affected by Sunpath SB03.

Do you trust the inspection of the rig by your local master rigger? Are you having to ship the rigs to a master rigger for inspection? What impact if any is this service buliten causing you/your DZ.

Are you notifying your students about this SB?


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 21, 2004, 3:28 PM
Post #2 of 29 (2016 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Do you trust the inspection of the rig by your local master rigger?

Yes.

Quote:
Are you having to ship the rigs to a master rigger for inspection?

No.

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What impact if any is this service buliten causing you/your DZ.

Little if any.

Quote:
Are you notifying your students about this SB?

No. Just like you don't tell students how many rides their might be on the reserve that's on their back, or wether anyone had broken an ankle jumping that rig. Some things you don't need to confuse/bother students with.


SkydiveNFlorida  (C License)

Jul 21, 2004, 4:12 PM
Post #3 of 29 (2000 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
No. Just like you don't tell students how many rides their might be on the reserve that's on their back, or wether anyone had broken an ankle jumping that rig. Some things you don't need to confuse/bother students with.

I bet the guy who just died would've liked to know about the guy who died from that same malfunction in Miami.

I guess to some extent I can understand not wanting to tell them. No one in their right mind would feel safe after hearing that TWO jumpers died due to structural integrity of these rigs... and that the last one had been inspected before use.
Unsure
Angela.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 21, 2004, 4:27 PM
Post #4 of 29 (1996 views)
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Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I bet the guy who just died would've liked to know about the guy who died from that same malfunction in Miami.

I guess to some extent I can understand not wanting to tell them. No one in their right mind would feel safe after hearing that TWO jumpers died due to structural integrity of these rigs... and that the last one had been inspected before use.

As a non-instructor I don't think you understand the reasons why that information is not apropriate for student consumption.

It is not because of a lack of carring or concern over student saftey, nor is it profit driven.

Quite simply you do not overload the student with more than they need to know, just as you don't teach a level 1 student how to do back layouts.


SkydiveNFlorida  (C License)

Jul 21, 2004, 4:50 PM
Post #5 of 29 (1992 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, right. I'm not an instructor, so my non-instructor ethics don't mean shit in here. I forgot. Sorry.

Later.
Angela.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 21, 2004, 4:53 PM
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Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

No need to get snippy or be over sensitive.

Perhapse you didn't understand the question or answer properly.

Does (insert your container manufacture here) let you know when they make a revision in the design they are producing? What about your canopy manufacturer?


SkydiveNFlorida  (C License)

Jul 21, 2004, 4:58 PM
Post #7 of 29 (1987 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No need to get snippy or be over sensitive.

Perhapse you didn't understand the question or answer properly.

Does (insert your container manufacture here) let you know when they make a revision in the design they are producing? What about your canopy manufacturer?

I don't think I was terribly snippy. I was simply commenting on how easily my opinion was dismissed as babble being i'm a 'non-instructor'.

Well, I wasn't replying to the question, I was replying to your reply. So, my understanding of the question is not a factor here.

I DO think that the manufacturers of my container, main and reserve would issue service bulletins should something they have put out be unsafe. I rely on this site and my Parachutist for that type of info.
...
An average student, on the other hand, isn't informed enough in the beginning of their jump career to find the information they NEED to know about these harnesses!

just my non-instructor opinion.
Angela.


(This post was edited by SkydiveNFlorida on Jul 21, 2004, 4:59 PM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 21, 2004, 5:06 PM
Post #8 of 29 (1983 views)
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Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
isn't informed enough in the beginning of their jump career to find the information they NEED to know about these harnesses!

You're average student would be overloaded with the information. There's a reason why you aren't taught everything at first, how to fly, how to pack, etc, just what you need to basically accomplish your first jump. You're given the building blocks to build the rest of your knowledge on. Eventually more is added and added. I have 1200 jumps and I'm still learning more and more and more then I ever even knew was out there about skydiving.

The point is, this is the sort of information that a low time student doesn't need to know and wouldn't know what to do with it if they did know.

How easy to you think it would be to explain to a student the SB, the background, why it happened, how it happened, how its being fixed and why/how its ok for a Master Rigger to inspect and repair as needed, etc. That's like trying to teach a 1st grader calculus instead of adding. Gotta learn how to add first.


Daizey  (C 37297)

Jul 21, 2004, 5:13 PM
Post #9 of 29 (1981 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can understand the reasoning behind not telling the student about this right from the beginning...but how about if they ask?

Take for instance, a student who has heard that there is a problem out there with a certain rig. They really dont know too much about it (including which rig it is) or even the exact problem but they have heard there have been incidents involving it. At this point do you tell the student that the rig in question is the rig they are about to jump? Do you tell them the exact nature of the incidents? Or do you just kind of play it off saying that yes there is a rig out there that may have a problem but it is being taken care of?


(This post was edited by Daizey on Jul 21, 2004, 5:16 PM)


SkydiveNFlorida  (C License)

Jul 21, 2004, 5:49 PM
Post #10 of 29 (1968 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

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There's a reason why you aren't taught everything at first, how to fly, how to pack, etc, just what you need to basically accomplish your first jump.

I don't relate these things to a safety issue like this one where two people have died. There are packers, and AFF instructors.

I guess it comes down to having that much faith that this is really an inspection issue. I don't have that. After two deaths, one of which was at a dz that is commended for their rigging talent, I think that this is a fundamental flaw with the gear and that anyone who is jumping one of these harnesses is doing so at their own risk regardless of who inspected it. And, as my belief is such, it goes without saying that I feel students should be informed.

Angela.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 21, 2004, 5:52 PM
Post #11 of 29 (1967 views)
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Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are a ton of "safety" issues.

Before your first jump were you told about all the fatal jump plane accidents? All of those planes were at somepoint inspected.

What about the double mals? More of those have happened and killed then the Jav stuff.

The list could go on.

Basically what I'm saying is, the rigs will be inspected and now that it is a known issue, they will be inspected even closer, if a student asks about it they should be told, but otherwise, they don't need to be overloaded with that information.


pilotdave  (D License)

Jul 21, 2004, 7:33 PM
Post #12 of 29 (1952 views)
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Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I bet the guy who just died would've liked to know about the guy who died from that same malfunction in Miami.

You think if he knew, the accident wouldn't have happened? He'd have decided to switch DZs to somewhere that uses a different brand of student rig? What would they have told him? There was a single accident in the X million number of jumps that had been put on those containers around the world and the company released a service bulletin requiring an inspection, which was complied with. Should they also have told the student about the grommet issue from a few years ago and the reserve ripcord pin issue, and every other SB thats ever come out?

I think saying "skydiving is dangerous, sign this waiver" is good enough.

Dave


MikeTJumps  (D 5957)

Jul 21, 2004, 7:39 PM
Post #13 of 29 (1949 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

I see many different responses on your topic, and the views each one presents (non-adversarily) are important.

Now here's one more to think about. You can be sure that some lawyer is going to be calling people in a "discovery process" and have an "expert witness" look at all these responses and formulate an opinion. I dread the phone call that will come through Dan Poynter to me. Fortunately, since I am not a master rigger nor a manufacturer, I will be able to recluse myself on the technical side of the issue, but surely they will ask me about "Would I have informed a student that......?" and I will most probably say, "No, that is not a normal practice in the industry and that it was a very tragic event." I don't want to go into any further detail because that would preclude me from being objective in a survey of other instructional ratings holders.

Gosh, this is a very scary issue!!!


Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

Jul 21, 2004, 9:04 PM
Post #14 of 29 (1931 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No need to get snippy or be over sensitive.

Perhapse you didn't understand the question or answer properly.

Does (insert your container manufacture here) let you know when they make a revision in the design they are producing? What about your canopy manufacturer?

JP,

Slow down with the snippy or sensitive comments. You say sensitive like it's a bad thing.

Anyway. Angelas comments are VERY welcome here. They offer a perspective from the non-instructor side, as opposed to the desensitized (instructor) side.

Listening to her is what will keep you in check and help you become a better instructor.

Sometimes I simply forget what it is like to be new to the sport. It's important to reflect back to that time.

I went through AFF and Ground School in Perris. During our lunch break from ground school, I was told that the girl in the bunk in our room would not be returning for her stuff. Her parents would be there, and please be descrete as they just lost their daughter. Should they have kept this information from me as a student? Did it deter me from making my first skydive?

I have no problem sharing information with students. This is not a bowling club, and students should be made aware of any facts that will help them make their decisions to progress in the sport.
Just my humble opinion. If you present the sport through rose tinted goggles, you are doing your students a disservice.

Okay. Done.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 21, 2004, 9:14 PM
Post #15 of 29 (1928 views)
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Re: [Daizey] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I can understand the reasoning behind not telling the student about this right from the beginning...but how about if they ask?

Absolutly. I would provide as much factual data as I could (provided it does not violate my employeres policies) and let them make their own decision.

To with hold that information when requested is foolhardy from a legal liability standpoint, and moraly wrong.

The students however most often place their faith in the judgment of the instructor. In my judgement the systems I've seen after inspection and listening to the opinions of the master riggers who inspected them are safe to use.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 21, 2004, 9:16 PM
Post #16 of 29 (1924 views)
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Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

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I was simply commenting on how easily my opinion was dismissed as babble being i'm a 'non-instructor'.

Your opinion was not being dismised. I was under the impresion that your "opinion" was formed without the benefit of experiences as an instructor dealing with wuffos.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 21, 2004, 9:21 PM
Post #17 of 29 (1923 views)
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Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I guess it comes down to having that much faith that this is really an inspection issue. I don't have that. After two deaths, one of which was at a dz that is commended for their rigging talent, I think that this is a fundamental flaw with the gear and that anyone who is jumping one of these harnesses is doing so at their own risk regardless of who inspected it.

And through what experience of harness construction, rigging experience, field experience inspecting and evaluating wear on gear, operation of gear types other that your personal rig, hands on experience with other AMLW's, and historical data do you make this "informed" decision.

At least 3 people died under Velocities in the last year. Many people have died under Stilettos in the last 10. Is it your opinion that those products are at fault?

Added: I am not dismissing your input, but the reaction you seem to be exhibiting is that of run in circles scream and shout. For example I have not seen or heard of a report that defines what the mode of death was in this incident.

Acording to the limited printed information avaliable:
"During a recent incident involving a very hard opening of a main canopy the left side of a
Javelin Student, Adjustable Main Lift Web separated."

This in no way has confirmed or denied that this was the cause of death.

I believe it has been established that the person landed with the equipment. Did they suffer injuries from said opening that would have proved fatal no matter what system they were wearing? Did they land in a turn and suffer fatal injuries?

The point is we don't know everything, and we might not ever. Telling people who are using an AMLW Javelin that they are endangering lives is foolhardy. Telling them about a possible problem and the steps to take ensure a reasonable level of safety is not.

As for students and instructors getting students through a jump safely, they are better served by not offering more information than it is possible for the student to digest and still remain functional. Would you advise the last thing said to a student befor exit be changed from "Are you ready to skydive" to "you know you could die today, right?"

Of course not because you don't need the student distracted at that point in time.

The people at Sunpath are now aware of the situation. They have offered a solution and given it some of the strongest teeth avaliable to the industry. Do you really believe they would expose themselves to the liability of having a sub standard product in the hands of wuffos? Of course not. History tells ust that hundresds of thousands of jumps have been placed on said systems with no problems at all.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Jul 21, 2004, 9:48 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 21, 2004, 9:58 PM
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Re: [GravityGirl] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

Bonnie,

I truly believe her response to my comment was based on ego. If I was in error....well it wouldn't be a first time.Wink

As for remembering what it was like to be new, I might better at it than you. I'm much closer to "newness" than you areLaughWinkHell I'm wet behind the ears compared to youTongue

I try to place myself as close to the "fresh" side of the sport as often as possible. I jump with low timers frequently. They are fun. They show me how to still have fun. They are usually inquisitive, a trait I admire. I think I still have volumes of information to absorb, and perspectives through which to see it.

Newness, or longevity in the sport nether makes or breaks a skydiver who has a desire to learn and absorb what there is to offer. I question anyone who makes snap judgments based on a few small nuggets of information. I often see both new jumpers and old jumpers doing just that. They are doing themselves a disservice, and slowing the spread of knowledge.

For the record I never said Angela's opinions or comments were not welcome. If it was perceived that way, I fault this forum. I never thought there was a need to separate it from Safety & Training. Why build a mental rift between instructors, experienced skydivers and those newer types that have a desire to learn?

Edit: Beacuse, yet again I spell like cpar.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Jul 21, 2004, 10:02 PM)


SkydiveNFlorida  (C License)

Jul 22, 2004, 11:49 AM
Post #19 of 29 (1812 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
At least 3 people died under Velocities in the last year. Many people have died under Stilettos in the last 10. Is it your opinion that those products are at fault?

Are you implying that hook turn fatalities are in the same catagory as gear failure? I could understand if you compared this to the reserve that blew a bunch of cells and was unlandable. [?I believe that mfg had bartacks reinforced after that???] Or, I could understand if you compared it to a faulty designed main that folded under when you touched the risers (weren't there canopies that did this?). But, to compare faulty webbing to fatalities caused by hook turning hp canopies into the ground just doesn't sit right with me. Students jump these rigs. They can't be expected to be perfectly square in the harness at pull time. Experienced jumpers, otoh, can be expected not to hook turn into the ground, and if/when they do it is their own fault.

I have read your comments. And, i'm honestly not sure what you mean by saying my comments are based on "ego". I am commenting based upon what i've read. I don't see how any of this builds my ego. Try not to dismiss people just because you don't get along with them, my opinion has nothing to do with you personally, JP.

Angela.


SkydiveNFlorida  (C License)

Jul 22, 2004, 11:55 AM
Post #20 of 29 (1811 views)
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Re: [GravityGirl] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I have no problem sharing information with students. This is not a bowling club, and students should be made aware of any facts that will help them make their decisions to progress in the sport.
Just my humble opinion. If you present the sport through rose tinted goggles, you are doing your students a disservice.

I think that's a good attitude:)

Thanks, Bonnie, it is nice to know that my opinion is welcomed here even though i'm not an instructor and am pretty new in the sport.

Angela.


jlmiracle  (D License)

Jul 22, 2004, 12:15 PM
Post #21 of 29 (1807 views)
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Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
At least 3 people died under Velocities in the last year. Many people have died under Stilettos in the last 10. Is it your opinion that those products are at fault?

Are you implying that hook turn fatalities are in the same catagory as gear failure?

I know of a fatality that was under a Stiletto that had nothing to do with hook turns, in fact, the canopy opened so hard it was what probably killed her.

I've read all your posts in this thread and you did sound like you were jumping on Diablo. Looking at your profile, it appears you don't have the experience that he does and you might want to stop and listen to what he is saying instead of getting all uppity about it and egotistic about it. You cannot afford to stop learning/taking advice in this sport. If you do you WILL die.

Judy


SkydiveNFlorida  (C License)

Jul 22, 2004, 12:29 PM
Post #22 of 29 (1804 views)
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Re: [jlmiracle] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
At least 3 people died under Velocities in the last year. Many people have died under Stilettos in the last 10. Is it your opinion that those products are at fault?

Are you implying that hook turn fatalities are in the same catagory as gear failure?

I know of a fatality that was under a Stiletto that had nothing to do with hook turns, in fact, the canopy opened so hard it was what probably killed her.

I've read all your posts in this thread and you did sound like you were jumping on Diablo. Looking at your profile, it appears you don't have the experience that he does and you might want to stop and listen to what he is saying instead of getting all uppity about it and egotistic about it. You cannot afford to stop learning/taking advice in this sport. If you do you WILL die.

Judy

I was NOT jumping on Diablopilot, he was simply the first reply, and the reply was that he would not inform his students. I was responding to that. Nothing about him personally.

I think we all know that i'm new to the sport, Judy. There is no need for you to call me "uppity" just because I have an opinion and do not fear responding when someone opposes it just because I don't have 20 years in the sport.

Also, please refrain from assuming that i'm not listening to all that is said here, That is simply not the case. I read and post on here because I WANT to learn. If I have a question or if I question someones motives, I will post.

Quote:
I know of a fatality that was under a Stiletto that had nothing to do with hook turns, in fact, the canopy opened so hard it was what probably killed her.

This is the ONLY comparison made so far that applies, imo.

Angela.


(This post was edited by SkydiveNFlorida on Jul 22, 2004, 12:30 PM)


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Jul 22, 2004, 12:48 PM
Post #23 of 29 (1797 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Are you notifying your students about this SB?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No. Just like you don't tell students how many rides their might be on the reserve that's on their back, or wether anyone had broken an ankle jumping that rig. Some things you don't need to confuse/bother students with.

JP, I have a question. In the removing the RSL from tandems thread you asked someone if they were notifying their students that the RSL was removed and if not they were doing a huge disservice to their student. How is this different?

When the PA SB came out on the Ravens I saw large flyers all around the DZ about it. There was no hiding from it. Students knew it, experienced jumpers knew it, whuffos knew it. Same with the Crossfire recall. In my FJC I was told about plane crashes and just how serious the sport was and the types of problems people have and how they die. No need to sugarcoat the truth for someone.

Here is a question for everyone. Are you changing the inspection peroid of the adapters and monitoring them more closely going forward or are you maintaining this one time inspection?


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Jul 22, 2004, 12:52 PM
Post #24 of 29 (1795 views)
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Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have what I think is a slightly different standpoint. I agree that students shouldn't, because they can't, be told about everything that could, has, or is suspected to have gone wrong with the gear they're going to jump. But the DZ putting the students in that gear can choose what gear to use. In this case, the failure of adjustable MLW harnesses suggests to me that it's not about telling students what has happened, it's about not using those harnesses.

I'm in agreement with someone important who said a while back (and it's entirely likely this wasn't a revelation): the jumper should come apart before the harness does. (Or, to put it another way, harnesses should... not... fail.)

The fact that they sometimes do is all part of skydiving and the waiver, along with all the other things that sometimes happen. (Including that other quote, "gear can kill you in ways nobody has yet imagined.")


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 22, 2004, 1:41 PM
Post #25 of 29 (1768 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Would you put a student out on a Javelin under SB03? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
JP, I have a question. In the removing the RSL from tandems thread you asked someone if they were notifying their students that the RSL was removed and if not they were doing a huge disservice to their student. How is this different?

I believe in the Tandem thread you spoke of I was refering to the practice of disconecting the RSL when a manufacturer mandates their use. I will admit before that thread I was unaware of Strong's position on RSL's.

I'm pretty sure you will admit with the minimum of training, and the frequent joke making in Tadem Skydiving (especialy first jump wuffo rides) that student distraction is much less of an issue than in AFF or post student pre A jumps

My point being, if the student asked about the gear, and about the service bulletin they should get the facts. If not, one will assume that they have placed faith in their instructors abilities to make those decisions for them. After all it's an instructors job to be supervising those decisions till the student is cleared for "self jumpmastering"


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