Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it?

 

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Poll: NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it?
Yes, we already have before the rule change 17 / 18%
Yes, now that the rule is changed we will take 16 year olds up 10 / 10%
Don't know. 7 / 7%
Don't think so.  Still too much liability 28 / 29%
Absolutely not!!!! 35 / 36%
97 total votes
 
buzzfink  (D 13652)

Jul 20, 2004, 8:32 AM
Post #1 of 108 (5938 views)
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     NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it?  

Here is the new age BSR from the latest USPA meeting:

The requirement for tandem jumpers to be at least age of legal majority was removed from the BSRs. Now all skydivers, regardless of type jump, must meet the same requirements: 18 years of age or 16 with notarized parental or guardian consent.



What do you think????


Buzz


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 20, 2004, 8:35 AM
Post #2 of 108 (5868 views)
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     Re: [buzzfink] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

Not in Texas, since even if every single living relative signed the release of liability, the state or outside parties could still sue and win. Simpily because the release of liability is a contract, in TX you have to be 18 to enter into a contract.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 20, 2004, 10:05 AM
Post #3 of 108 (5815 views)
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     Re: [AggieDave] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

Ditto for Cali.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Jul 20, 2004, 10:10 AM
Post #4 of 108 (5813 views)
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     Re: [buzzfink] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

http://groups.google.com/...d.aol.com&rnum=1

Note point #5. Does the USPA think this is no longer true???


MarkM  (C 35089)

Jul 20, 2004, 11:38 AM
Post #5 of 108 (5783 views)
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     Re: [buzzfink] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

Does this apply to AFF now as well?


jlmiracle  (D License)

Jul 20, 2004, 12:32 PM
Post #6 of 108 (5765 views)
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     Re: [MarkM] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Does this apply to AFF now as well?

The USPA already has 16 as the minimum age for AFF.

Judy


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jul 20, 2004, 1:46 PM
Post #7 of 108 (5746 views)
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     Re: [buzzfink] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

We will ABSOLUTELY use it at Raeford as well as my dad's dropzone in Alabama. It is ridiculous that we have been training 16 year-olds to skydive since I was a toddler, yet have not been able to take 16 year olds on much-safer tandems.

edited to add that I will not hesitate to take any 16 year old on a tandem with my own rig either.

Chuck


(This post was edited by SkymonkeyONE on Jul 20, 2004, 1:47 PM)


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Jul 20, 2004, 2:18 PM
Post #8 of 108 (5738 views)
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     Re: [buzzfink] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

I would be very surprised to find Crosskeys letting 16 year olds out on tandems. I think there have only ever been 2 people who were allowed to do AFF under the age of 18 and they were both relatives of long time locals.

The only exception would maybe be kids who were locals and even then, I wouldn't count on it.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Jul 20, 2004, 3:35 PM
Post #9 of 108 (5712 views)
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     Re: [SkymonkeyONE] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

Quote:
We will ABSOLUTELY use it at Raeford

I agree, as long as it passes through the next wicket, which I see as being Relative Workshop changing their previous stance (read it here). This being, of course, since the primary tandem rig used at Raeford is the Sigma.

I have already told one of the owners of the school that I could fill an entire weekend tandem day with people I have turned away because their kids were not yet 18.

[whine] I hope it changes, if for no other reason than I won't have to explain the backwards sounding age limitations between AFF training and a Tandem. [/whine]

This will be interesting to watch.


tspillers  (D 21601)

Jul 20, 2004, 4:47 PM
Post #10 of 108 (5691 views)
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     Re: [buzzfink] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

Not correcting Aggie Dave, but Aggieland's answer is I don't know. I have to consult our lawyer and see.

My suspicion is that it will be the same as before due to the risks and taking them without a waiver.

We don't currently take anyone under 18. I would like to change it, but unless things have changed on the legal side, I doubt we will.

Todd


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 20, 2004, 4:59 PM
Post #11 of 108 (5688 views)
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     Re: [tspillers] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

Hey, you're the boss and I'm more then sure that your lawyer knows Texas law better then I do...well, I hope he does.Tongue


ripcords  (D 8808)

Jul 20, 2004, 7:41 PM
Post #12 of 108 (5663 views)
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     Re: [buzzfink] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

We live in a sue happy society and our only protection is the waiver. Take someone skydiving (AFF, tandem, static-line or IAD) under the age of legal consent (which I believe can be as high as 21 in some states), and the impression that I have been given is that you may as well hand your aircraft, facilities and first born child over, should they chose to sue you. Not to mention exposing the gear manufacturers and any other corporations that have any assets to tremendous losses.

I can not imagine why anyone would want to do that. It has the potential to leave less skydiving places around for the jumpers to jump at, and less equipment for jumpers to choose from.Pirate

Remember they don't even have to win the law suit, just the cost of defending the suit is astronomical.


nightjumps  (D 23385)

Jul 20, 2004, 9:46 PM
Post #13 of 108 (5646 views)
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     Re: [AggieDave] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

I checked with an attorney (well, a couple actually) and in Oklahoma a parent cannot sign away a child's rights. They can buy them a brand new shiny corvette at 16, but they cannot sign away their right to sue.


skydiverton  (D 123456789)

Jul 20, 2004, 11:05 PM
Post #14 of 108 (5638 views)
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     Re: [nightjumps] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

Charge them $1000 and include a trip to europe!

No problems here, I've done tandems with people from 10 till 80years


tombuch  (D 8514)

Jul 21, 2004, 3:34 AM
Post #15 of 108 (5621 views)
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     Re: [skydiverton] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
No problems here, I've done tandems with people from 10 till 80years

Yeee Haw! Set up a booth right next to the ferris wheel.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Jul 21, 2004, 6:40 AM
Post #16 of 108 (5600 views)
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     Re: [SkymonkeyONE] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
We will ABSOLUTELY use it at Raeford as well as my dad's dropzone in Alabama. It is ridiculous that we have been training 16 year-olds to skydive since I was a toddler, yet have not been able to take 16 year olds on much-safer tandems.

edited to add that I will not hesitate to take any 16 year old on a tandem with my own rig either.

Chuck

- A child under 18 cannot enter into a legally binding contract.
- A parent cannot sign away a child's right to sue.
- Therefore a valid waiver cannot exist for a child under 18.

So if we aren't going to require a valid waiver for people UNDER 18, why require it for people OVER 18?


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jul 21, 2004, 6:59 AM
Post #17 of 108 (5595 views)
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     Re: [ryoder] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

If you can teach people to skydive at 16, which we have been doing since I was born, then it's ridiculous to not be able to take them on a tandem. Once again, I can promise you that our dropzone will immediately start doing so once all the gates are cleared. Also, I, as an independant contractor, will not hesitate to do so with my Racer once the word is given. If you live your life in fear of being sued, then you might as well just not ever get any sort of instructional rating or start any skydiving-related business. I don't have such fears.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Jul 21, 2004, 7:31 AM
Post #18 of 108 (5587 views)
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     Re: [SkymonkeyONE] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
If you can teach people to skydive at 16, which we have been doing since I was born, then it's ridiculous to not be able to take them on a tandem. Once again, I can promise you that our dropzone will immediately start doing so once all the gates are cleared. Also, I, as an independant contractor, will not hesitate to do so with my Racer once the word is given. If you live your life in fear of being sued, then you might as well just not ever get any sort of instructional rating or start any skydiving-related business. I don't have such fears.

And again the question:
So if we aren't going to require a valid waiver for people UNDER 18, why require it for people OVER 18?

If the DZ's turn someone away at 16, they will likely be back at 18. Most people only ever make one jump, so you will still get their money for that jump. So what have you gained for giving up the protection of the waiver? Nothing.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Jul 21, 2004, 8:04 AM
Post #19 of 108 (5579 views)
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     Re: [buzzfink] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

Bottom line is that waivers do not stop anyone from suing you. Especially if you ARE negligent in any way, then waiver or not, you will lose.

But if you are NOT negligent, and you get sued, then the waiver and contract allows you to countersue for legal fees, etc.

If they are 16, the contract is meaningless. But you could have the family sign the contract, then you still have someone to sue for your costs should they decide to sue you later on when they turn 18. By then, the people that signed your contract are probably moved on, or at least it would be quite a difficult paper trail you would have to produce.

I would be in favor of it if we did something like Perris, where we record and catalog on video their statements of acceptance of the risks, as well as have the paper trail to follow. I think at that point, you could mount a considerable defense.

However, if you actually did fuck up and hurt someone, then it is all moot.

TK


riddler  (D 10234)

Jul 21, 2004, 8:19 AM
Post #20 of 108 (5578 views)
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     Re: [SkymonkeyONE] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

Quote:
If you can teach people to skydive at 16

I completely agree that kids should be able to skydive. I hope to have kids someday, and I will get my tandem rating expressly for the purpose of taking them skydiving. Either that, or I'll just have SkyMonkey do it Wink

But I don't think it will be long before a 16-y/o is hurt and their parents sue. It's all about the risk you are willing to take. BillBooth is making that statement that if you do it with his gear, you are also putting his company at risk, as well as the USPA and your dropzone.

USPA says that it's OK to take a 16 y/o. Your dropzone may say it's OK, and it's OK with you. So if you can jibe it with the gear manufacturer, then everyone's willing to accept the risk and there's no problem.

I know in Colorado, a minor (under 18) can't even ENTER a legal agreement legally, so if they sign anything, it's not binding. Also, I know (at least it used to be) that a parent could not sign away their child's rights here as well. That makes both signatures (parent and minor) not-binding, which will probably get the waiver thrown out in court.


cloudwlking  (D 19467)

Jul 21, 2004, 9:15 AM
Post #21 of 108 (5571 views)
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     Re: [AggieDave] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

Just a question for the lawyers out there, in Texas a parent signs for a 16 year old to get their drivers license. It's a conditional license and can be taken away utill they turn 18. This would seem a comparable event to signing a waiver for anything including skydiving.

or is it?


ryoder  (D 6663)

Jul 21, 2004, 10:01 AM
Post #22 of 108 (5561 views)
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     Re: [cloudwlking] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Just a question for the lawyers out there, in Texas a parent signs for a 16 year old to get their drivers license. It's a conditional license and can be taken away utill they turn 18. This would seem a comparable event to signing a waiver for anything including skydiving.

or is it?

This is the opposite situation. Rather than RELEASING someone from liability, the person doing the signing is ASSUMING liability. Example:

http://www.dot.state.az.us/...e.htm#ObtainALicense
"If you are under 18, your application for an instruction permit or driver license must be signed by at least one adult. The adult will be responsible for any negligence or willful misconduct when you are driving."


billbooth  (D 3546)

Jul 21, 2004, 12:12 PM
Post #23 of 108 (5517 views)
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     Re: [ryoder] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

Users of Relative Workshop Tandem equipment:
Please be aware that this change in the BSR's does not free you from your contactual responsibility not to allow anyone "below the age of majority" to use our tandem equipment. It is paragraph 11 in your User Agreement. Waivers are available from Relative Workshop for extraordinary circumstances.


livendive  (D 21415)

Jul 21, 2004, 12:12 PM
Post #24 of 108 (5516 views)
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     Re: [buzzfink] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

We will still not take "whuffo" children on tandems (or any other skydive) till they turn 18 because of the liability issue.

Note I'm referring to "whuffo" children. My daughter has been hanging around DZ's for several years now, knows how to pack, knows the tandem videos verbatim, has done homework assignments on skydiving, etc. This BSR change happened on 7/18/2004, which just so happened to be my daughter's 16th birthday. Smile

Blues,
Dave


lawrocket  (Student)

Jul 21, 2004, 12:28 PM
Post #25 of 108 (5502 views)
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     Re: [ryoder] NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it? [In reply to]  

Quote:
So if we aren't going to require a valid waiver for people UNDER 18, why require it for people OVER 18?

Great fucking point. If the student is under the age of majority in that particular state, there is no use in having the waiver. Period. Just let them show and go, since it's the same effect, and less time.

If your state allows the age of majority at 16, then fine. Make them do the waiver.

Where do I see this going? I see places like the Uninsured Relative Workshop entering into agreements with DZ's stating either, "You will not use this gear for a passenger under the age of 18" and/or "DZ will indemnify and hold harmless [manufacturer] for all incidents involving the use of this equipment with a passenger under the age of 18."

The manufacturers may eventually simply not send the tandem equipment to DZ's that allow tandem passengers under the age of majority for that state.

Be aware....


(This post was edited by lawrocket on Jul 21, 2004, 1:40 PM)


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