Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
hook or Chuck snaps or carves again


ramon  (D 26115)

Mar 27, 2002, 11:51 AM
Post #1 of 7 (784 views)
hook or Chuck snaps or carves again Can't Post

Lately I have been experiementing with carving instead of snap front riser turns. Everyone says it is safer etc..

I have tried very gradual carves that end up with me yanking very hard on the riser (maybe 45 snap) to complete a 180 turn to final and I have tried sort of tight hard carves.

Seems like the gradual carves do not build as much speed as I would like and my accuracy is really bad and I wind up low and off heading. When ever I watch the pros who are carving they seem to be doing slightly better than a slow snap hook.

Is the idea just to complete as steep a dive as you can without really snapping yourself above the canopy?

I am not sure I have ever gotten the speed I can get from a hard 180.

newly wet from the ditch (done with 180 snap for accuracy)


hooknswoop  (D License)

Mar 27, 2002, 12:22 PM
Post #2 of 7 (775 views)
Re: hook or Chuck snaps or carves again [In reply to] Can't Post

Just like everything else, it is a trade-off.

When you pull "G's" from a snap turn, you slow down, lose energy, but you swing out from under the canopy farther, giving you a longer recovery arc, and the chance to build more speed.

In a slow carving turn, you don't pull much in the way of "G's", but you don't pendulum out from under the canopy as much, resulting in a shorter recovery arc.

What is the best method? Well, it depends. What is the effect you are trying to get w/ the manuever? what do you consider more important? What is easier for you to accomplish routinely, the same way, every time? What canopy are you jumping, at what wing loading. There isn't a blanket right answer.

A hard deep, front riser to deep double fronts requires more upper body strength. I know someone that starts w/ a front riser and because they can't pull it down for a long time, uses harness steering to complete the turn.

Personally, I don't like the carving turn. I find it too complicated to vary the turn rate and decent rate in a carving turn and come out exactly on the heading I want, at the altitude I want. If you are high in your approach, you have to pull down more front riser, but then you run the risk of turning too far past your intended swoop heading. You can use the other front riser to vary your decent rate while using the other to vary (correct) your turn rate. Too much for my peanut brain to handle. I hammer one front riser, stop the 180 degree turn w/ the other front riser and dive like crazy. Then I smoothly put the front risers back where I found them and swoop w/ the toggles. I drop out of the sky, using a vertical sliver of airspace, a lot less than a carving turn uses. It is also obvious to others where I am going, no guessing on where I will roll-out of my turn.

I think part of the reason I do it this way is because that is the way I learned to do it. If I learned a carving approach, I would probably feel that it was better for me. I guess it is similar to the whole high wing, low- wing aircraft debate. Pilots that learn in one or the other tend to prefer that design.

Which is better? You have to decide which is better for you.


rgoper  (C 32349)

Mar 27, 2002, 2:22 PM
Post #3 of 7 (751 views)
Re: hook or Chuck snaps or carves again [In reply to] Can't Post


what effect, if any, does canopy size, type and wingload have on "snap turns?" could i do the same manuevers with my hornet that you do? (of course on a slower, and smaller scale) i've seen you fly many times, and have observed closely each time, and my engineer mind is going crazy with physics and dynamics, etc...i know there is probably no easy explanation for it, but any input you might have would be appreciated.....


"I Go, Therefore I Am"

ramon  (D 26115)

Mar 27, 2002, 5:28 PM
Post #4 of 7 (725 views)
Re: hook or Chuck snaps or carves again [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey D.

I started doing hard hooks because the good you Super and Chris were doing them.

Pilots not as good as you three tell me not to do them because they are dangerous...though I am more accurate and pretty much hook at my correct altitude or take an out.

The Pros talk of carving also...looks to me like they are hooking though.. Drew Lipinski even said that he is more of a hard turner than a carver...

Is there anything inherently more dangerous n a hook than a carve...if you are dialed in and turn at the right height?

There isn't any greater chance of canopy colapse from a rotor in either technique...right?.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 27, 2002, 5:40 PM
Post #5 of 7 (720 views)
Re: hook or Chuck snaps or carves again [In reply to] Can't Post

Once again you get back to the main reason you are doing your turn. Some people will never have the "feel" of their canopy neccessary to be able to carve with any degree of accuracy. Yes, you can build mad speed with a one riser snap to double fronts, and many competitors do just that. What you get out of the bottom end of that snap, though, depends on the setup of your main. Some mains are setup so that they they just won't dive good in a double front and want to come around the corner too soon. Those are the ones that you do better with a carve. I vary my turn from an mild dive to a sharp snap depending on what the wind is doing and which way I need to go to get through a course.


My webpage HERE

polarbear  (D 25673)

Mar 27, 2002, 5:58 PM
Post #6 of 7 (715 views)
Re: hook or Chuck snaps or carves again [In reply to] Can't Post

Me personally, I go with the carve. I do agree that it is "harder" to get good accuracy and is "harder" to perform it at the right altitude, but I think that aerodynamically, a carving maneuver puts the canopy in a better position to build up speed. One thing I have noticed is that on my canopy, if I time the carve such that I come out of the carve at the right altitude so I don't have to double-front the rest of the way down, I get more speed than if I come out high and have to double-front to get lower.

One observation I have is that a canopy with a large/negative recovery arc will do better with a snap turn...since it will not recover as fast, it is in the "dive" configuration longer and has time to build up speed. A canopy with a short recovery arc (A lightly-loaded stiletto?) will not stay in the dive very long, and thus will not build up as much speed. During a snap turn, the quick-recovery canopy (I think) gets most of the benefit from the pendulum effect of the pilot. Thus, I think that a quick-recovery canopy will do better with a carve.

A second observation is that good swoops seem to depend mostly on how smoothly the entire landing maneuver is executed. Whether it is a snap or a slow turn, I think the ability of the pilot to perform the maneuver in a smooth manner is crucial. Thus, I would expect that a pilot who had better technique with a snap hook to get better swoops than he would from a carve.

I'm not a very experienced jumper; my observations come mostly from watching the experts, my understanding of aerodynamics, and maybe 150 agressive landings.

ramon  (D 26115)

Mar 27, 2002, 7:31 PM
Post #7 of 7 (700 views)
Experience [In reply to] Can't Post

Must be the issue.

I'm always looking for easy answers Laugh.

Maybe after I put 300-400 more jumps on my FX I'll have a better feel for a carve set up.



Forums : Skydiving Disciplines : Swooping and Canopy Control


Search for (options)