Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Canopy Relative Work:
Catch a Falling Main ???

 

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krkeenan  (C 7860)

Jul 12, 2004, 1:58 PM
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Catch a Falling Main ??? Can't Post

A recent fatality at Atlanta Skydiving Center occurred when a jumper tried to catch a cutaway main in the air and ran into trouble. This points out the hazards of doing this. I think it is important to bring this up in our group, because we are more likely than most jumpers to find ourselves in the air with an unoccupied main canopy.

I can't deny that it's a very cool thing to do. But it is a rare canopy pilot who can pull it off successfully. It is a lot easier to catch one than to catch one properly. Anyone who has done it (I haven't) will tell you that there is a right way and a wrong way - and the right way isn't always available.

With the canopy flying that we do, it is probably easier for a CRWDog to catch a main than for most other jumpers. But we get old in this sport by managing risk properly, and the odds are very high of getting in a world of shit by snagging a cutaway main, so don't fall for it. Spot it, follow it, land near it, whatever. Just don't grab it. It could be the last dock you ever make.

Fly Safe.

kevin k


crwmike  (D 6139)

Jul 12, 2004, 5:48 PM
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Re: [krkeenan] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A recent fatality at Atlanta Skydiving Center occurred when a jumper tried to catch a cutaway main in the air and ran into trouble. This points out the hazards of doing this. I think it is important to bring this up in our group, because we are more likely than most jumpers to find ourselves in the air with an unoccupied main canopy.

I can't deny that it's a very cool thing to do. But it is a rare canopy pilot who can pull it off successfully. It is a lot easier to catch one than to catch one properly. Anyone who has done it (I haven't) will tell you that there is a right way and a wrong way - and the right way isn't always available.

With the canopy flying that we do, it is probably easier for a CRWDog to catch a main than for most other jumpers. But we get old in this sport by managing risk properly, and the odds are very high of getting in a world of shit by snagging a cutaway main, so don't fall for it. Spot it, follow it, land near it, whatever. Just don't grab it. It could be the last dock you ever make.

Fly Safe.

kevin k

Thank goodness I've never been skilled enough to catch one of those thing.

BSBD,

Michael

Make room for the chicken-headed freeflyer!


CRWCheryl  (D License)

Jul 12, 2004, 7:50 PM
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Re: [krkeenan] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Even catching a freebag can be a little dicey.

There is a video out there where two CRW dogs converge on one freebag. BAM! Two more freebags. (It is an old video. I think most have learned from it.)

One of my team mates caught the freebag up in his lines. He tumbled a bit on landing.

And I've even heard that the spring can cause intense pain to a certain gender should it be caught in the groin area.

Would I still catch a freebag? Yes, as long as the traffic was clear and I was up high enough.

I won't catch a main, though.


crewdog2  (D 5770)

Jul 12, 2004, 8:57 PM
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Re: [CRWCheryl] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

And if you're the one who cutaway, do yourself and everyone else a favor and try to land safely back at the dz. I was following this guy's main down one time and he damn near collided with me while under his reserve. He was so hell bent on not losing that canopy that he never saw me. Let your friends follow your gear down while you stay clear of others and land the only parachute you have left.

Russ


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jul 12, 2004, 9:54 PM
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Re: [crewdog2] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

 You can't always count ( more likely in CReW, less in other types of dives due to separation before deployment) that others have seen your mal.

A few months back on a 10 way bird man jump our group experienced two mals on the same jump. Half of the group landed back at the DZ and not everybody saw the cuttaways. I, for instance, only saw one and was told of the other after arranging for vehicle response.


crewdog2  (D 5770)

Jul 13, 2004, 7:19 AM
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Re: [VectorBoy] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

As this is the forum for Canopy Relative Work, I was addressing the CRW community.


Genn  (D 22590)

Jul 15, 2004, 8:44 PM
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Re: [krkeenan] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

The last time I saw my friend catch an unoccupied main...It traveled up the lines on approach and chocked the main at approx 600 ft...Hence, a low cutaway. Good thing he was right over the DZ..he landed fine but it definitely had potential and was entertaining as hell.


TVPB  (F 666)

Jul 22, 2004, 10:44 PM
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Re: [krkeenan] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

I caught one 4 weeks ago. CRW rotations training.

We were jumping at a DZ next to a large lake with lots of those stumpy trees around. The wind was blowing towards the lake and we were training into the wind.

We had a trainee third who did not turn out far enough when starting his rotation and ended up collapsing the second . . . . . .and third . . . . . .and fourth canopies. One broken line resulted in only a single cutaway.

Our cameraman caught the freebag. I chased the main.

Tips:
- DON'T DO IT.
- if the cutaway canopy is changing its shape and orientation (turning, collapsing, reinflating, etc), I recommend not touching it.
- choose an approach angle with minimal closing speed. Use brakes if necessary.
- remember that if you are using brakes and intend to catch the canopy with your hands, your descent rate and forward speed will change as soon as you let go of the toggles. Hence, you need to allow for this.
- aim to catch the canopy by its tail or brake lines on one of the rear corners. DON'T GO FOR THE MIDDLE OF THE MASS. If the canopy reinflates you will ghost plane. . . . . or wrap your body in it, or . . . . . . have an entaglement / wrap, or . . . . . .
- once you have caught the canopy, try to move your grip to the tailpocket area. This is to minimise the chance of reinflation. Also, make sure that the lines don't wrap with you or your gear. Trail the canopy behind. I don't like tryiung to bundle the canopy as their is a greater chance of wrapping / entanglement. Monitor it and let go it it looks dodgy.
- keep up your forward speed and the material should trail behind you.
- drop it as high as you can.
- I tend to drop the canopy in a turn towards the opposite side that I am holding the canopy in order to minimise the risk of entanglement with my canopy.
- make sure the canopy is not wrapped onto you in any way.

Lessons:
- don't cutaway too high if you don't have to. Especially near large forests and bodies of water. This will reduce the need to catch the canopy in the air. However, make sure you do give yourself sufficient height to perform your emergency procedures. A lost canopy is better than a dead person.

See you in Croatia.

Smile


(This post was edited by TVPB on Jul 22, 2004, 10:54 PM)


kleggo  (D 8292)

Jul 25, 2004, 8:50 PM
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Re: [krkeenan] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

ahhhhhh
just had the pleasure of snagging a freebag for a friend yesterday at crazy crew. when you grab a freebag, you realize just how fast you are flying forward! (and it looks pretty cool when you're shooting video at the same time too)

i made one pass on the main............... and demurred. it was still flopping / flailing and inflating sporadically.
looked like black death waiting to me.
i've cought a few mains, but only when they are a compact mass and i can grab them with a toe stab as fly by. anything that gets higher than my ankle is jettisoned.

be safe

craig f


crewdog2  (D 5770)

Jul 26, 2004, 7:06 AM
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Re: [kleggo] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks again, bro! You da man.

And thanks to Brett and Glen for landing with my main. At that altitude (~11,000 ft.), I never thought I would see my baby again. Well, maybe at some swap meet in Riverside a year from now.

Also, a big thanks to Frank for the great pack job on my reserve - both before and after.

Russ


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jul 26, 2004, 1:52 PM
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Re: [crewdog2] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

 thanks to Brett and Glen for landing with my main. At that altitude (~11,000 ft.), I never thought I would see my baby again. Russ
I usualy like to get a few rotations in before but chasing gear is still good fun and nobody stole my shoes, always a plus.


CRWDogRigger  (D 16735)

Jul 26, 2004, 5:28 PM
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Re: [crewdog2] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad you did get your main back Russ, but also that there were no injury issues related to the cutaways we heard took place over the weekend.

See you later this week.


chachi  (B 3406)

Nov 9, 2004, 11:33 AM
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Re: [TVPB] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

I honestly can not believe that anyone who had heard the story of how Nathan Gilbert died would ever consider this again. The only information you should be pushing onto the skydiving community is NEVER EVER EVER try this. I know you CReW dogs are good but I also know Nate was a PST qaulified canopy pilot who regularily finished well. He died, should others in the same way? I don't think so. Please TVPD edit your post to simply say

Tips:
-DON'T DO IT. end tips section.

This should be a totally outlawed practice. Kinda like low pull competitions.

~Chachi


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Nov 9, 2004, 7:51 PM
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Re: [chachi] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

  I know you CReW dogs are good but I also know Nate was a PST qaulified canopy pilot who regularily finished well. He died,

~Chachi
Chachi, you are right. This manuever shouldn't be promoted. But you do have to understand that CReW dogs don't look at a wrap like most sport jumpers do or they would never do CReW again. And there is a difference in catching something up high and catching something down low on an ultra diving main.


chachi  (B 3406)

Nov 9, 2004, 9:04 PM
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Re: [VectorBoy] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know you CReW dogs are good but I also know Nate was a PST qaulified canopy pilot who regularily finished well. He died,

~Chachi

Chachi, you are right. This manuever shouldn't be promoted. But you do have to understand that CReW dogs don't look at a wrap like most sport jumpers do or they would never do CReW again. And there is a difference in catching something up high and catching something down low on an ultra diving main.
Many people reading this do not know how to determine the difference and you are simply promoting bad habit in my opinion. I just try and remember this is a public forum and anyone can read it. Not meaning to sound condescending, honestly, just trying to push my opinion on others.

~Chachi


Levin  (D License)

Nov 9, 2004, 9:48 PM
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Re: [chachi] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I honestly can not believe that anyone who had heard the story of how Nathan Gilbert died would ever consider this again. The only information you should be pushing onto the skydiving community is NEVER EVER EVER try this. I know you CReW dogs are good but I also know Nate was a PST qaulified canopy pilot who regularily finished well. He died, should others in the same way? I don't think so. Please TVPD edit your post to simply say

and he was flying a Velocity 96 when he caught it. not your typical crw wing. i don't think catching cut-away mains is a good idea either. in this single particular forum what you are saying is kinda like comparing apples with oranges.

In reply to:
This should be a totally outlawed practice. Kinda like low pull competitions.

you seem to want to outlaw a lot of things such as all F111 canopies and low pull competitions. i think that someday with time and some more jumps you will realize that your own personal experience level isn't the standard by which all should be judged. i prefer the idea of to each his own. there is a time, place and situation for everything. i don't like the idea of highly loaded reserves, but i don't go around advocating the banning of all highly loaded reserves. some people choose to jump them and they have that right. who am i to tell someone they can't do that simply because i don't appove. same goes for you.





edit: edit to add that you asked TVPB to edit his post knowing that is impossible because he made it 4 months prior to you dragging it back up. his tips were intended for CRW jumpers only. I find his tips informative for the targeted audience.


(This post was edited by Levin on Nov 9, 2004, 11:06 PM)


chuckbrown  (D 19538)

Nov 10, 2004, 6:55 AM
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Re: [chachi] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

This should be a totally outlawed practice. Kinda like low pull competitions.

~Chachi

A LOT more jumpers have been killed doing high performance landings than catching a cutaway main/freebag.

BTW, I'm not endorsing catching a cutaway. It's dangerous, but then again a lot of skydiving is dangerous. Assess the risks and determine whether it's worth the risk.


chachi  (B 3406)

Nov 10, 2004, 4:45 PM
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Re: [Levin] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you are trying to goad me into an argument, it won't work. I will answer you if you promise not to be immature to the point of being warned by a moderator.

Your points were:

1. He was flying a velocity. Yes I agree a much more dangerous wing and as I said already in the post above you that although you and I understand this the guy at 100 jumps on his brand new spanky Sabre 150 with his barely there canopy control doesnt know the difference between that and an experienced CReW dog with his Lightning 190 at 6,000 ft with uber canopy skills. We need to post responsibly in my opinion and that means discouraging these practices so no one else has to pay that price. I also to clear the record mentioned that in this case I was trying to push my opinion on everyone. I also think it worthy to mention that when the BEST canopy pilots in the business tell me and others that they wouldn't even think about doing it EVER again, maybe that is noteworthy advice.

2. The sport actually outlawed low pulls and in the interest of answering your off topic point I did not in one place say we should outlaw F111 canopies. I said that there is no point in learning how to flare a paffed out F111 canopy when the person in question and indeed 99% of skydivers will find themselves under a ZP main very early on in their career and for a very long time. I am a proponent of using new(ish) gear because using antiquated gear is just plain silly in a sport of seconds and feet.

This is a very public place and the amount of people reading what we as more knowldgable skydivers write down is taken for law in many places and I just don't want to see people get hurt misconstruing information we write in hear as it is not only CReW guys with 100 of jumps getting the information it is normal 50 jump wonders that may not have heard of Nate Gilbert and then think it's a great idea.

~Chachi

PS. If you are going to debate with me please discontinue recycling my comments and phrases and come up with your own.


(This post was edited by chachi on Nov 10, 2004, 4:49 PM)


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Nov 10, 2004, 5:47 PM
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Re: [chachi] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

But we can't cater everything we talk about to the lowest common denominator. In the swooping forum, they discuss carving turns and rear riser landings and doing all sorts of tricks on landing. Should those be not discussed because some 100 jump wonder decides to try it?

There's a huge difference though between an experienced CRWdog with 3000 CRW jumps under a Lightning trying to catch another Lightning at 8000 feet, and an experienced swooper trying to catch one under a Velocity at 1500 feet.

I've never seen a CRWdog try and catch a canopy that low. I wouldn't even try and catch a freebag that low. Its completely nuts in my opinion. I wouldn't even try to catch a freebag with an elliptical canopy at all.

I watched a very experienced CRWdog with probably 10,000 jumps try to catch one last month (no luck - it was outfloating both of us) to try and save it from going out to sea. This was happening at 8-10 thousand feet. What he was trying to do and what Nate was doing are night and day differences. Could he still be killed doing it? Absolutely. But he fully knows the risks and was willing to take them.
And i guarantee you - even he in 1500 feet wouldn't touch one with a 10 foot pole.

Do I catch mains? Nope. Freebags? Yep.. Do I recommend others chase mains? No.. But I don't think not discussing something because of what some 100 jump wonder may do is the right thing. Just like they should be smart enough to not do what Luigi Cani is doing in swooping, they should be smart enough to not do what a few extemely skilled people do in CRW.


CRWCheryl  (D License)

Nov 10, 2004, 6:16 PM
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Re: [faulknerwn] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just my two cents....

I hate it when people loose their mains. But I hate it worse when they get hurt. I would rather take a chance on not finding a main than on someone being hurt.

And, pursuant to a discussion this last weekend, I THINK CATCHING A CUTAWAY UNDER A RESERVE IS A VERY BAD IDEA NO MATTER WHAT THE CONDITIONS. If I was to see someone do it, and survive, I would ask another CRWdog, maybe Jon Sikorski, if they wouldn't please knock some sense into that person.


Levin  (D License)

Nov 10, 2004, 7:38 PM
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Re: [chachi] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the guy at 100 jumps on his brand new spanky Sabre 150 with his barely there canopy control

and there ya go. this person couldn't catch a main with a tractor beam much less his feet. by the time he can he'll have a clue. your argument is a valid one but doesn't hold water in this forum.

In reply to:
I also think it worthy to mention that when the BEST canopy pilots in the business tell me and others that they wouldn't even think about doing it EVER again,

there are 2 types of best canopy pilots. CReW Dogs and HP Canopy Pilots. I imagine you are reffering to the latter. The best HP canopy pilots are very experienced & knowledgeable & damn good at what they do. But the other best canopy pilots such as the ones in this forum have been the best before the idea of a HP canopy was even conceived of. And it seems to me opinions are mixed. Things aren't so black and white. There's always grey area.

In reply to:
The sport actually outlawed low pulls

whaddya mean outlawed? bsr's are not law.

In reply to:
I did not in one place say we should outlaw F111 canopies

i stand corrected. you didn't say banned. you said they should be removed from circulation.

In reply to:
This is a very public place and the amount of people reading what we as more knowldgable skydivers write down is taken for law in many places and I just don't want to see people get hurt misconstruing information we write in hear

maybe we should have a disclaimer sticky up top that says "Kids, DON'T try this at home"

In reply to:
PS. If you are going to debate with me please discontinue recycling my comments and phrases and come up with your own.

Can I quote you on that? WinkLaugh


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Nov 10, 2004, 8:04 PM
Post #22 of 31 (2501 views)
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Re: [chachi] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

 I was flying relative with Russ's canopy for a very long time from about 9000'. I could stay with it with simple harness turns. I was close enough to put my toes on it 30 times in the ten minute flight. I thought long and hard about where it ( we) were going to get land as we traversed neiborhoods, electrical substations, busy intersections and rocky hilly out cropings. The only thing keeping me from a perfect snatch and easy arrival at the DZ was the fact that ,with Nathan passing just the week before, we were briefed not to and I'm sure I would have got more than an a simple ass chewing for it
Glen.


chachi  (B 3406)

Nov 10, 2004, 9:10 PM
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Re: [Levin] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

You do make some interesting points. There is no right or wrong answer here, i guess I am just very determined because we are talking about life vs. a canopy which in 99% of the cases can be walked out and picked up. The list of how to do it just looked pretty out in the open to me and thought it was a bad example.


In reply to:
The sport actually outlawed low pulls

whaddya mean outlawed? bsr's are not law.
_______________________________________________________________
BSR's are laws as far as you and I at the dz are concerned if you jump at a USPA dropzone.

In reply to:
I did not in one place say we should outlaw F111 canopies

i stand corrected. you didn't say banned. you said they should be removed from circulation.
_______________________________________________________________
I only said paffed out F111 canopies should be removed from circulation.

In reply to:
This is a very public place and the amount of people reading what we as more knowldgable skydivers write down is taken for law in many places and I just don't want to see people get hurt misconstruing information we write in hear

maybe we should have a disclaimer sticky up top that says "Kids, DON'T try this at home"
_______________________________________________________________
I'll give you this one...

In reply to:
PS. If you are going to debate with me please discontinue recycling my comments and phrases and come up with your own.

Can I quote you on that? WinkLaugh_______________________________________________________________
no,.... lol.

~Chachi


Levin  (D License)

Nov 11, 2004, 6:05 PM
Post #24 of 31 (2453 views)
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Re: [chachi] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
a canopy which in 99% of the cases can be walked out and picked up.

not necessarily so. take skydive east texas for example. it's a really fun king air dropzone that i recomend everyone visit if they get the chance. but i certainly wouldn't want to chop a canopy up high. the link is for a picture of the landing area. and this is just an example. i know people who have lost canopies at skydive chicago, sports city skydiving in shreveport (former dz), skydive east texas, skydive houston and skydive spaceland. most of those canopies could have been saved if it had been possible to have caught them in the air. but in each of those particular scenarios, it wasn't possible. http://www.skydiveeasttexas.com/about.htm

In reply to:
BSR's are laws as far as you and I at the dz are concerned if you jump at a USPA dropzone.

bsr's are good general rules of thumb to keep everyone safe. the fact that you perceive them as law is a really good thing. as long as people abide by them as if they were law then everyone stays pretty much safe. but they are not law.

In reply to:
I only said paffed out F111 canopies should be removed from circulation.

this taken from the swoop forum. what you said was...

Quote:
To be perfectly honest I don't like f111 canopies in the least and don't feel they should be in circulation anymore.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Nov 12, 2004, 5:36 AM
Post #25 of 31 (2430 views)
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Re: [Levin] Catch a Falling Main ??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
To be perfectly honest I don't like f111 canopies in the least and don't feel they should be in circulation anymore.

That's funny. I've got a nice F111 PD 150 that I love to death. I jump it a lot and like it as well as any of my ZP's. It swoops quite nice too for something that's loaded at 1-1....

W


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