Forums: Archive: 2005-2006 USPA BOD Elections:
Repack cycle

 


MikeTJumps  (D 5957)

Jul 8, 2004, 7:12 PM
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I am a strong proponent of an extended repack cycle, at least 180 days in length for modern man-made materials that do not include mesh (remember the acid mesh problem that surfaced in the 1980's?).

As a rigger, I routinely repack my own equipment and I see that there is no real value to repeated repacking of the equipment if it is well cared for. Industry folks have said that repeated repacking actually causes more wear and tear on equipment than leaving it alone. Of course, my equipment stays in an air conditioned room during the non-jump days, not a hot car trunk.

Heat aging/damage has been researched to my satisfaction. I don't believe that is a credible issue to keeping the repack cycle at 120 days.

At the last PIA symposium, I listened to the critics demanding more research and I also heard others offering the services of research.

The USPA and the PIA are in a cooperative mode to getting an increased repack cycle. It will ultimately be up to the FAA to move in that direction once the industry parties are unified in their approach to the matter.

Mike Turoff, Gulf Region candidate


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 8, 2004, 9:14 PM
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I don't see the 120 day as a truely reserve issue. I see it as an opportunity for a rigger to check the rest of the gear out. How many jumpers actually take the time to do something as simple as inspect their gear every weekend? Ok, how about the monthly maintance on their 3-rings and cable?


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 8, 2004, 9:32 PM
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In reply to:
I don't see the 120 day as a truely reserve issue. I see it as an opportunity for a rigger to check the rest of the gear out. How many jumpers actually take the time to do something as simple as inspect their gear every weekend? Ok, how about the monthly maintance on their 3-rings and cable?

Maybe its time for the average jumper to take a more active roll in keeping his/her ass safe in the air.
Sparky


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 8, 2004, 9:59 PM
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Quote:
Maybe its time for the average jumper to take a more active roll in keeping his/her ass safe in the air

I agree.

Sort of like the average jumper needs to take an active roll in not flying their canopy into the ground.Unsure


MikeTJumps  (D 5957)

Jul 9, 2004, 4:40 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] Repack cycle [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, individual responsibility for one's gear is an important part of the whole picture. If you take a look at any gear manual, you will see that what you have stated is what the manufacturers want to be done. I wonder when was the last time someone practiced what the manufacturer directed? Not very often for sure.

Rotating rings used to be thought of as an acceptable means of self-maintenance, but all that did was put skin oils on the rings. The real deal is to disconnect the risers, flex the webbing, then re-install the risers. Would you believe that there are people that don't know how to do that? That is scary!

I consider that action to be a part of student training. I wish others would as well.

Mike Turoff


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 9, 2004, 5:13 AM
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Quote:
I wish others would as well.

We at Aggieland teach these things to every single student. Once they buy their own gear, we tend to remind them. Does that mean that all of those jumpers take care of their gear and do the proper maintance? Nope. The rigger ends up being the only one that does it, every 120 days.

My overall point is, sure 180 day cycle is a pretty good idea on many different levels; however, with a good idea, there are still negative points and they need to be addressed.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jul 9, 2004, 8:25 AM
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In reply to:
I am a strong proponent of an extended repack cycle, at least 180 days in length for modern man-made materials that do not include mesh (remember the acid mesh problem that surfaced in the 1980's?).

Mike Turoff, Gulf Region candidate

Mike, you should know that it was a combination of the mesh AND the fabric. Two pieces of fabric on the same canopy exposed to the same piece of mesh could be and were different, one dead and one fine. And that weak fabric has been found during repacks on ramairs, by me just this spring. Mesh or no mesh has no relevance, other than one particularly high incedence of fabric failure. And do you intend to punish all the pilots, who almost all have mesh covered drive slot canopies?

I think we can get away with 180 days, and am willing to work toward that (two independent initiatives currently under way), but I do believe it will lead to a small decrease in safety do to reduced gear maintenance. Will that decrease have a negative effect? Probably minor, unless your the one guy in the next 20 years that bounces.

Many things have changed since the symposium. Offers of help were withdrawn and other initiatives begun. PIA's request to USPA to share funding of research, made fall of 2003 upon motion of the Rigging committe and action of the plenary session, has yet to be acted upon.

An alternative initiative is also under way.

Chairman, PIA Rigging Committee


MikeTJumps  (D 5957)

Jul 9, 2004, 9:51 AM
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WOW! That's the first I heard of weak fabric in ram-airs. Thanks for the information.

I am also saddened by what you stated has happened...the withdrawal of offers of help.

I'll be sure to mention this at the BOD meeting the weekend of the 17th.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jul 9, 2004, 10:03 AM
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My understanding is that there have been a number of cases of weak fabric in ram air canopies over the years, although I have no specific details. I'll put out a request for details in a couple of forums.

The withdrawl of offers were more that the person making the offer at the symposium assumed that assistance was available when it wasn't. Other data has been offered since then but it will be limited in scope. PIA recognized that doing the testing plan developed would not happen on a volunteer basis and allocated $15,000 to it dependant on matching funds from USPA. I expected USPA to take action at the last BOD meeting on the request forwarded by Cliff Schmuker, but it appears no where in the minutes. As best I can figure out it must have been part of the material tabled for lack of time and concentration on insurance.


bodypilot90  (D 24249)

Jul 16, 2004, 4:48 AM
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Quote:
PIA recognized that doing the testing plan developed would not happen on a volunteer basis and allocated $15,000 to it dependant on matching funds from USPA.

there is no need to study this any further when you have real world data from other places in the world that already have a 6 month or a yearly repack cycle. As for 4 month being safer than 6 month, I am sure if you factored in the wear on the reserve the risks would come out even. Jumper "x" who jumps 25 times a weekend would have more wear to look for than jumper "y" who does 6 jumps a month. I find it very hard to believe jumper y needs a repack more than yearly.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jul 16, 2004, 6:57 AM
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In reply to:

there is no need to study this any further when you have real world data from other places in the world that already have a 6 month or a yearly repack cycle. As for 4 month being safer than 6 month, I am sure if you factored in the wear on the reserve the risks would come out even. Jumper "x" who jumps 25 times a weekend would have more wear to look for than jumper "y" who does 6 jumps a month. I find it very hard to believe jumper y needs a repack more than yearly.

The FAA doesn't much care about this and what someone else in the world, usually civilian organizations, do also doesn't necessarily make a case for it hear. And we don't have real world data. We've have impressions, suppossitions, and guesses. We don't KNOW if that "reserve failed to inflate prior to impact" fatality would have been different with a 10 day old repack, a 120 day old repack, or a 360 day old repack. We can assume, but we don't KNOW. At least in a controlled, scientifically and statistically valid way. (I'm an analytical chemist in real life.Wink

YOU may be sure the decreased wear on the reserve would balances the risk but many others disagree.

Jumper 'y' may only need one a year but we can't easily write regulations based on jump number. This has to apply across all uses of approved emergency parachutes, including student rigs, tandems, 10 jump a year old farts, and 1000 jump a year competitors, and all manor of pilots.

When presented with a compolation the regulations in other countries one FAA inspector said "Where's the other 200 pages?" meaning all the test data to prove the change doesn't compromise safety.

All that said, we are working on a change.

.
Chair, PIA rigging committee


bodypilot90  (D 24249)

Jul 16, 2004, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
And we don't have real world data.

oh but we do. Has there been any increase in reserve malfunctions in the nations that have adopted the 6-12 month repack cycle? Short answer, NO!

Quote:
YOU may be sure the decreased wear on the reserve would balances the risk but many others disagree.


Pehaps the people earning money on repacks?

Quote:
Jumper 'y' may only need one a year but we can't easily write regulations based on jump number. This has to apply across all uses of approved emergency parachutes, including student rigs, tandems, 10 jump a year old farts, and 1000 jump a year competitors, and all manor of pilots.

Sure you could, make it every 12 months or 500-1000 jumps. punch cards or something like it would be very easy to set up. Rental on student gear could be checked more often.

Please do not take any of this as a attack on you. I thank you for throwing in your 2 cents worth. I'm sure it would be easier to get a exemption than to change the reg itself. Something like tandems were working under before a couple years ago.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jul 16, 2004, 12:12 PM
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NO? How do you know? Do you we have data? Or just that nobody has told you reserves are malfunctioning in other countries? But do you even have the self reported occurrences, let alone controlled study data? To a scientist or statistician we have anecdotes. That's what I meant. And malfunctions aren't the only metric. Slower extractions, slower opening times might be others.

We don't even have real data on how a reserve acts after 30 days. All TSO testing measuring opening times, distance, strength etc. are done on recently packed gear. The only time built into the system are the heat and cold soak tests, which are still short term. One real concern is if we collect real data, and one manufacturer is doing a three year test program, we may find out opening times increase 100% in 2 months. Or not, we don't know. The program takes three years because you have to pack the SAME canopy for each time period (i.e. 60, 120 180, 360 days) and then test jump it.

Does this matter in the real world. Maybe, maybe not. Of course most reserves work. The sample is realatively small.

BTW I've heard nobody involved in the industry debates care a hoot about the money. We may very well all raise our rates to cover the difference.Tongue Or not. It's not a topic of concern to those involved in the debate on the inside. Many of us would rather have less work.

I don't take it as an attack.Wink But I've sat through most of the industry discussions for the last three years, attended all of the PIA symposiums but one, and been a member for 15 years. And have been one of the handfull of people influencing decisions.Crazy I encourage anyone who cares to get involved. The next PIA business meeting is in Jacksonville FL in Sept. Visitors are always welcome.Smile

Chairman, PIA rigging committee


(This post was edited by councilman24 on Jul 16, 2004, 12:13 PM)


aven220  (A 44631)

Sep 13, 2004, 9:06 PM
Post #14 of 23 (2535 views)
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 The next PIA business meeting is in Jacksonville FL in Sept. Visitors are always welcome.Smile

at the adams mark hotel, what day and time?


councilman24  (D 8631)

Sep 14, 2004, 6:54 AM
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Too late, last weekend.


tspillers  (D 21601)

Sep 14, 2004, 9:20 AM
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Terry,

Any good news/ new developments?

Post or PM me, please.


Davemon  (D 6304)

Sep 15, 2004, 3:53 AM
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Why not let the masses pack their own reserve when the get their D license. This way you have USPA doing something to increase membership,they would surely add a price for their efforts which they keep whinning about and everyone gains.


MikeTJumps  (D 5957)

Sep 18, 2004, 9:48 AM
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In reply to:
Why not let the masses pack their own reserve when the get their D license. This way you have USPA doing something to increase membership,they would surely add a price for their efforts which they keep whinning about and everyone gains.

At first, I thought this was a crazy idea someone was trying to get a reaction to, then I thought it does deserve an answer.

As to allowing someone to pack their own reserve once they get a D license (now 500 jumps internationally), I can only state that if a person wanted to go through the meticulousness of training to pack their own reserve, there might just be a method to that madness.

When I work on reserves, I usually have two tackle boxes of supplies to utilize (not everything in them is used on any one reserve), but tools, loops, materials, and procedures must be followed to get things just right. One reserve in particular that I work on takes about 2.5 hours from start to finish before I'm satisfied with its final product. Numerous times, I take things apart after I shove them together because it doesn't look "just right." Would an individual owner do that for their own rig? Remember, this is the person's last chance at life!

I don't think that the idea will fly, but it does merit some consideration. Would you say perhaps packing your own reserve under the personal direct supervision of a certificated rigger at least five times for such a sign off might be appropriate to demonstrate proficiency? Remember, we pack 20 rigs for a senior rigger ticket, and over 100 each of two types for a master rigger ticket.

I wonder how many would want to do just that.


airtwardo  (D License)

Sep 18, 2004, 12:12 PM
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In reply to:
I don't think that the idea will fly,

Quote:

I don't either!

As someone who never uses the services of a packer
on his main...

on the times it hasn't worked...(7 so far)

I would be really puckered going to the last bullet
knowing I packed THAT one too!

Mike, you highlight the importance of doing a complete,
competent job when not only packing but INSPECTING
a reserve.

I don't believe the average jumpers has the interest
or commitment to stay proficient enough to qualify
for a seal on their personal gear.
Especially considering that they might only pack it
4-5 times in a year.

Even in the 'world of riggers' finding one you trust
and are confident with can be a challenge!Unimpressed

I've had a Master Rigger tear my reserve
putting it in the D bag..

And had a Senior Rigger actually pack me a reserve malfunction, that was fortunately caught during
the following cycle...and not at line stretch.Shocked


skymedic  (C 33561)

Sep 28, 2004, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
I would be really puckered going to the last bullet
knowing I packed THAT one too!

thing that makes me uncomfortable with using someone else to rig my stuff and anne's stuff is we are never there to see it packed. I am a big fan of personal responsability. and packing one's own reserve is a good thing in my opinion. well...that's why I'm getting my senior rigger rating at least. to each his/her own...that is the beauty of our sport.


dubbayab

Nov 4, 2004, 1:14 PM
Post #21 of 23 (2250 views)
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OK, I want to be able to repack the reserve on both my rigs. I want to save $90 every 120 days!!!!!!!!. I am not interested in sewing, or knowing how to repack a round, I do not want to pack others reserves either, I do not want the work, but all I can do is to spend alot of money, and a lot of time getting a rigger ticket. I wish the FAA would allow jumpers to qualify for a.... oh lets say a JR. rigger ticket in stead of SR. or Master. How about that, no packing of others, or sewing. sorry for all the ,


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 8, 2004, 12:54 PM
Post #22 of 23 (2198 views)
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In reply to:
OK, I want to be able to repack the reserve on both my rigs. I want to save $90 every 120 days!!!!!!!!. I am not interested in sewing, or knowing how to repack a round, I do not want to pack others reserves either, I do not want the work, but all I can do is to spend alot of money, and a lot of time getting a rigger ticket. I wish the FAA would allow jumpers to qualify for a.... oh lets say a JR. rigger ticket in stead of SR. or Master. How about that, no packing of others, or sewing. sorry for all the ,

Precedent for this being, say, the FAA Recreational Pilot certificate. No privileges relating to other people, just for him/herself.

But how would this apply if someone else borrowed your rig? How would you control this?


bodypilot90  (D 24249)

Dec 8, 2004, 2:38 PM
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Quote:
Precedent for this being, say, the FAA Recreational Pilot certificate. No privileges relating to other people, just for him/herself.


sounds like a great idea, I am sure most people will not, just as some are afraid to hook up their main let alone pack a reserve.



Forums : Archive : 2005-2006 USPA BOD Elections

 


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