Forums: Archive: 2005-2006 USPA BOD Elections:
BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies

 

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Ron

Jun 30, 2004, 12:08 PM
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BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies Can't Post

Well what are you solutions?

WL BSR?

Nothing?

Education only?

What?


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 30, 2004, 12:17 PM
Post #2 of 99 (3896 views)
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Re: [Ron] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

W/L BSR, no grandfathering. 6 month implimentation window. Proficiency tests allow exceding the BSR. Waiverable by S&TA who has observed testing. Dual BSR; one recomended loading chart, one maximun allowable, and enforceable.

Education and active training.

More power in the hands of S&TA's and get rid of non effective S&TA's. Promote S&TA inter DZ comunications, and enforcements. When a jumper is grounded for violating a BSR make sure they stay that way everywhere.

Oh wait, I'm not running.


WrongWay  (D 27371)

Jun 30, 2004, 12:41 PM
Post #3 of 99 (3876 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Proficiency tests allow exceding the BSR. Waiverable by S&TA who has observed testing.

That's a good idea, but what about the jumpers who are "buddies" with the S&TA? I stated in another thread perhaps a requirement of a second S&TA so that one may oversee the other and vice versa to prevent slacking. This could solve that problem.


eeneR  (C 34303)

Jun 30, 2004, 12:46 PM
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Post deleted by eeneR [In reply to]

 


WrongWay  (D 27371)

Jun 30, 2004, 12:57 PM
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Re: [eeneR] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Excellent points.

Sorry for hijacking the thread Ron.

Let's all get back to the subject of "good canopy" related incidents. I'll start a new thread on this issue asap.


Jib  (C License)

Jun 30, 2004, 3:02 PM
Post #6 of 99 (3813 views)
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Re: [Ron] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

How do you reconcile no BSR on wingloadings but defined "advanced" as .9/1.1-1.5?

Quote:
B.3. Advanced equipment generally refers to canopies loaded as follows:

a. above 230 square feet, 1.1 pounds per square foot or higher

b. from 190 to 229 square feet, 1.0 pounds per square foot or higher

c. from 150 to 189 square feet, .9 pounds per square foot or higher

d. canopies smaller than 150 square feet at any wing loading

7. These recommendations don't consider the specialized information and expertise required to safely fly canopies at wing loadings approaching 1.5 pounds per square foot and beyond or canopies approaching 120 square feet or smaller.

http://uspa.org/...SIM/section6.htm#610


peterk  (D 25725)

Jul 1, 2004, 4:25 AM
Post #7 of 99 (3741 views)
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Re: [Jib] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Why does the USPA feel that it is their responsibility to protect jumpers from themselves? If jumpers insist on jumping small canopies before their time, and experienced jumpers are telling them over and over, they deserve the respect to enjoy skydiving in their own way. Yes, they might get hurt, or worse, but the government (FAA/USPA/etc) shouldn't be the one to tell you how to be safe- the individual jumper should... Maybe some more labels on lawnmowers about not sticking yourhand into moving blades would save some fingers too....


chriswelker  (D 19678)

Jul 1, 2004, 4:57 AM
Post #8 of 99 (3736 views)
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Re: [Ron] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Ron,

How are you going to enforce some type of BSR regarding wing loading?

BSR's are broken by some DZ's with no consequence.

Why would a W/L BSR be any different?

Chris Welker
D-19678


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 1, 2004, 5:04 AM
Post #9 of 99 (3729 views)
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Re: [chriswelker] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
BSR's are broken by some DZ's with no consequence.

Why would a W/L BSR be any different?

Well, a revamping of the GM program is needed to, specifically one that puts some bite in the USPA to enforce BSRs.


tspillers  (D 21601)

Jul 1, 2004, 5:13 AM
Post #10 of 99 (3727 views)
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Re: [Ron] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a very important issue since we have a large majority of fatalities under good canopies.

This is a sport of freedom and that means not over-regulating. At the same time, every publicized (as opposed to the not?) fatality brings us one step closer to FAA regulation and a much more expensive sport.

With this said, I feel USPA is heading in the right direction with the "recommended" wing loading charts. Many of the difficulties come into play in the fact that most of us that try to come up with wing loading suggestions, will never know what we are talking about.

Explanation: A 230 pound 'exit' jumper (like myself) will never no what a 1:1 wing loading on a 135 is like to a 135 pound 'exit weight' jumper because of the shorter lines. At the same time, that 135 jumper will never know what a 230 at 1:1 flies like. This makes a wing loading limit difficult.

I feel it would be better to have a wing loading guidline, with skills test involved to progress beyong the guidline. I could be swayed, but at this point feel that this should be implemented at a DZ and instructor level with help from S&TA's rather than controlled by USPA.

Ok, flame away Smile

Todd


Ron

Jul 1, 2004, 6:16 AM
Post #11 of 99 (3708 views)
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Re: [peterk] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why does the USPA feel that it is their responsibility to protect jumpers from themselves?

If they dont the FAA will...

And it fits right in with pull altitudes, wind limits, who can jump with who..

The USPA is a SELF REGULATING body...It needs to regulate the #1 killer of skydivers today.


Ron

Jul 1, 2004, 6:18 AM
Post #12 of 99 (3704 views)
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Re: [chriswelker] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How are you going to enforce some type of BSR regarding wing loading?

BSR's are broken by some DZ's with no consequence.

Why would a W/L BSR be any different?

Do you allow low pulls at your DZ? What do you do about them?

Same thing.

And yes the S&TA's need more teeth. They should be allowed to revoke or ground a member for say a mth without higher approval. Jump at a USPA DZ? No membership and you can't.


larryskydives

Jul 1, 2004, 8:31 AM
Post #13 of 99 (3665 views)
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Re: [Ron] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

 
And yes the S&TA's need more teeth. They should be allowed to revoke or ground a member for say a mth without higher approval. Jump at a USPA DZ? No membership and you can't.
It is not about S&TA's needing more teeth. S&TA's are not policeman. If you see a jumper doing something unsafe - tell them about. Tell the S&TA and have him speak with the jumper. It easy to come to dropzone.com and type it out. Speak up - The life you save might be your own!


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 1, 2004, 8:35 AM
Post #14 of 99 (3661 views)
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Re: [larryskydives] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
tell them about.

I'm not sure how many times you've tried that as a "regular" jumper, but that rarely rarely works, although we tend to try to tell folks when we can. The majority of the time folks that are the problem stated something to the effect of "well, I'm not your average canopy pilot...I really good for my jump numbers...I'll be really careful," etc.

We have reached a point in which jumpers trying to take care of jumpers isn't working, too many folks are dying, its time to take more drastic measures. If letting jumpers take care of jumpers worked, we wouldn't be having this conversation now.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jul 1, 2004, 8:39 AM
Post #15 of 99 (3655 views)
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Re: [larryskydives] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It is not about S&TA's needing more teeth. S&TA's are not policeman. If you see a jumper doing something unsafe - tell them about. Tell the S&TA and have him speak with the jumper. It easy to come to dropzone.com and type it out. Speak up - The life you save might be your own!

I did and it won me few friends but a lot of enimies. And it didn't work.

If that worked, then why are people still flying canopies they don't have the abilities or experience for and hammering in?

Derek


larryskydives

Jul 1, 2004, 8:44 AM
Post #16 of 99 (3653 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I'm not sure how many times you've tried that as a "regular" jumper, but that rarely rarely works, although we tend to try to tell folks when we can. The majority of the time folks that are the problem stated something to the effect of "well, I'm not your average canopy pilot...I really good for my jump numbers...I'll be really careful," etc.

Dave, I have done it as regular jumper. And I have done it as a jumpmaster and instructor. I have done it as a S&TA. I have done as BOD. It doesn't matter if your a "regular" jumper or on the BOD. If it needs saying - say it. If you don't one day the FAA will say it for you. Then might have to jump 1-1 and your reserve canopy will have to be 1-1 also. With your attitude about not speaking up, you are your own worst enemy. Your a Big Boy - don't be scared - Speak Up at the Drop Zone not just on Dropzone.com

We have reached a point in which jumpers trying to take care of jumpers isn't working, too many folks are dying, its time to take more drastic measures. If letting jumpers take care of jumpers worked, we wouldn't be having this conversation now.
I am not having a conversation with you. This is written correspondence.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jul 1, 2004, 8:48 AM
Post #17 of 99 (3649 views)
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Re: [larryskydives] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Dave, I have done it as regular jumper. And I have done it as a jumpmaster and instructor. I have done it as a S&TA. I have done as BOD. It doesn't matter if your a "regular" jumper or on the BOD. If it needs saying - say it. If you don't one day the FAA will say it for you. Then might have to jump 1-1 and your reserve canopy will have to be 1-1 also. With your attitude about not speaking up, you are your own worst enemy. Your a Big Boy - don't be scared - Speak Up at the Drop Zone not just on Dropzone.com

Speaking up isn't working. Talking to the jumper isn't working. That is the current system, which isn't working.

Derek


Ron

Jul 1, 2004, 8:57 AM
Post #18 of 99 (3643 views)
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Re: [larryskydives] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Dave, I have done it as regular jumper. And I have done it as a jumpmaster and instructor. I have done it as a S&TA. I have done as BOD. It doesn't matter if your a "regular" jumper or on the BOD. If it needs saying - say it. If you don't one day the FAA will say it for you. Then might have to jump 1-1 and your reserve canopy will have to be 1-1 also. With your attitude about not speaking up, you are your own worst enemy. Your a Big Boy - don't be scared - Speak Up at the Drop Zone not just on Dropzone.com

We have reached a point in which jumpers trying to take care of jumpers isn't working, too many folks are dying, its time to take more drastic measures. If letting jumpers take care of jumpers worked, we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

We all have tried to talk to them...And We ALL have tried to get the USPA to stop doing nothing and do something about it....

We have done our part and will continue to do our part...Its the USPA and the BOD that is doing nothing.

Proving once again that the USPA is worthless except for a nice magazine.


larryskydives

Jul 1, 2004, 9:09 AM
Post #19 of 99 (3636 views)
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Re: [Ron] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

We have done our part and will continue to do our part...Its the USPA and the BOD that is doing nothing.

Proving once again that the USPA is worthless except for a nice magazine.
Ron - Why don't you do something about it - Why don't you run for the BOD. You do your part - Bullshit. Quit whining!


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jul 1, 2004, 9:37 AM
Post #20 of 99 (3625 views)
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Re: [larryskydives] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Ron - Why don't you do something about it - Why don't you run for the BOD. You do your part - Bullshit. Quit whining!

So you are saying that the BOD's aren't going to do anything and if anyone wants change, they have to run? Don't voice an opinion unless you are running for office? I thought the BOD was supposed to listed to the members and do what is best for the membership?

If you don't want to do anything, I'm sure the membership can find someone who will.

Derek


skycat  (D 25740)

Jul 1, 2004, 9:44 AM
Post #21 of 99 (3620 views)
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Re: [larryskydives] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ron - Why don't you do something about it - Why don't you run for the BOD. You do your part - Bullshit. Quit whining!

So with that line of thought if we don't like say the way a state is handling an issue we should run for an elected seat. Not practical.

What we do instead is elect officials that stand for what we want on that issue, and by writing letters to them to remind them of our wants and needs.

True we all need to be more involved in what the BOD is doing, such as demanding that the minutes of every BOD meeting be posted on DZ.com. Also, we need to know how every member voted on a certain issue, then when election time comes around we are better able to make an informed decision on if someone stays in office because they are doing what we feel needs to be done or if they need to be replaced because they are following the "Good ol' Boy" mentality. This will force the BOD to be accountable for thier actions to the USPA membership.


Ron

Jul 1, 2004, 10:18 AM
Post #22 of 99 (3600 views)
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Re: [larryskydives] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ron - Why don't you do something about it -

I HAVE tried to do something about it...I took my ideas to my BOD, and there were ignored...On one I was told to "go away".

I have tried to work in the sysytem, but when they system is broken and the members of the BOD are more interested in protecting GM DZ's than doing squat to help the jumpers...Why bother?

The USPA is broken.

Case in point the lowering of the AFFCC and the "Please use the ISP" attitude.... Have some balls...If the person could not pass the AFFCC then they should be made to do better, not down dumb the course to make it easier to pass. Where is the focus on saftey?

The USPA FINALLY saw that the student program was broken and the fix was a bigger joke than the problem.

There was the BIC...Then it was gone. There was the coach program that is a BIG joke, down dumming the AFFCC. And you can't even get the GM DZ's to implement the ISP...Why? Cause they said they didn't want to and you caved!!!

In reply to:
Why don't you run for the BOD. You do your part - Bullshit. Quit whining!

Why would I want to be a member of the board of a usless group? If I didn't HAVE to be a member to jump at so many damn DZ's I would drop my membership as would 50-60 % of the members as shown BY YOUR OWN POLL.

You allow SDLV to operate as a GM member but you also allow him to NOT allow members to jump there?

Why don't you DO YOUR JOB?


livendive  (D 21415)

Jul 1, 2004, 10:19 AM
Post #23 of 99 (3599 views)
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Re: [chriswelker] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
BSR's are broken by some DZ's with no consequence.

Why would a W/L BSR be any different?

Similarly, if verbal cautions from fellow jumpers and a substantially increased risk of death isn't enough to convince someone to jump a larger canopy, how will a rule hidden away in a book they rarely look at be more effective?

Blues,
Dave


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 1, 2004, 11:39 AM
Post #24 of 99 (3574 views)
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Re: [larryskydives] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Ron - Why don't you do something about it - Why don't you run for the BOD. You do your part - Bullshit. Quit whining!

Wow! I'm definitely glad you're not running again, since you have that attitude. Must be nice to feel like a "king" and not take issues that YOUR jumpers (aka USPA members) are concerned about.

Hopefully through the grassroots efforts of the USPA members on DZ.com, we will be able to replace all of those on the BOD with that attitude with new blood. Replaced with folks concerned with what their jumpers are concerned about. Replaced with people who are worried about the current status quo and where it has put the sport.

Oh, just in case you've never learned, the accepted defininition of a discussion via the internet may it be through a real time chat client (such as IRC, AIM, etc) or through a forum that does not function in real time, is called a conversation. When conversing via a "sent" message such as e-mail, it is referred to in the terms associated with written correspondence. That has been the accepted standard with computers since I first logged on to a BBS back in 1987 and the pre-web internet shortly there after. So quit trying to deflect the issues and give us some answers!


larryskydives

Jul 1, 2004, 12:13 PM
Post #25 of 99 (3559 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] BOD canidates views on solution to jumpers dying under good canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

[Hopefully through the grassroots efforts of the USPA members on DZ.com, we will be able to replace all of those on the BOD with that attitude with new blood. Replaced with folks concerned with what their jumpers are concerned about. Replaced with people who are worried about the current status quo and where it has put the sport.]

Grassroots effort - I have heard that before (rec.skydiving)

How many candidates are there going to be in your region? Howe many regional candidates are going to go uncontested? How many national directors are voted on because of name recoginition? I can't make everybody happy, but I have had the support ofthe USPA members in the Southern Region and I have been their advocate. Now if I can make you so mad that you will get off your ass and try to make a difference by voting or getting people to vote or just getting involved - Then I will make you so mad you can't stand it!! So get pissed off and bent out of shape and make a difference.

And by the way - You don't know me or what I stand for, and it will be your preconcieved notions that will be your downfall in life. And by the way, this isn't a conversation.


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Forums : Archive : 2005-2006 USPA BOD Elections

 


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