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A Licence - pack it and jump it?

 

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timbarrett  (A 105337)

Jun 26, 2004, 7:57 AM
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A Licence - pack it and jump it? Can't Post

just curious...
To get signed off on your A licence you are required to have packed a parachute. To get the sign off are you also required to jump your pack job as well? Should you be required to?

As for me...at Deland, where I spent a miserable and painful 5 hours learning to pack, the guy who finished supervising me, in response to my asking "Was that okay?", replied "Would you jump it?" Upon my rather dubious response "Er..well..yes..I can't think of anything I screwed up", he replied "If you aren't happy - Do It Again! If you are then jump it tomorrow first thing and I will sign your card."

I guess I think that's the right way. There are too many people in this world who aren't willing to take responsibility for themselves and that's generally not true of skydivers it seems..

just curious how others view this...

P.S
right now I think packers are woefully underpaid!!


pccoder  (A 43773)

Jun 26, 2004, 9:49 AM
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Re: [timbarrett] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I never jumped mine. To this day still have never jumped mine, but never back either. My new gear is in next month and will start packing from here on out. But I anticipate taking a refresher course before doing it.


freakflyer9999  (D 99999)

Jun 26, 2004, 12:11 PM
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Re: [timbarrett] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

There were three of us in my packing class. The instructor had assisted us with a couple of student rig pack jobs when he pulled out his personal rig for us to practice on. He then went up stairs to work with an AFF student. The three of us packed it together, but we weren't exactly sure about a few things. When the instructor came down stairs, we were expecting him to dissect the pack job and to tell us what we did wrong. Instead he asked us a couple of questions which we answered affirmatively, then he put the rig on and headed to the plane. All three of us running behind, begging him not to jump our pack job. We watched and prayed as he jumped. It opened without a hitch.
His confidence in his ability to train us and to pack his reserve, lead to our confidence in our ability to pack.

KG


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Jun 26, 2004, 12:17 PM
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Re: [timbarrett] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

The entry on the USPA A License Proficiency Card says "Pack a main parachute without assistance."

Using the word "law" not in the literal sense . . .

Letter of the law = pack it, don't have to jump it = sign off
Spirit of the law = pack it = sign off, then go jump it

Jumping your own pack job is a huge confidence builder, akin to your first solo skydive, when it's all up to you.

In the Army, jumping your own pack job is a requirement both in Parachute Rigger School and at the Military Free Fall School.


Flyer2Diver  (B 31162)

Jun 26, 2004, 1:53 PM
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Re: [timbarrett] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I got signed off without jumping my packjob, but it was only because the timing didn't work out. I learned to pack late in the evening on a Wednesday and was traveling to another drop zone with my new license on the following day. Last weekend I jumped the first rig I packed. I pulled a bit high and was half suprised that it opened fine Smile. If I could have jumped my first one, I would have. It certainly is a confidence builder!


winsor  (D 13715)

Jun 26, 2004, 5:06 PM
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Re: [timbarrett] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
just curious...
To get signed off on your A licence you are required to have packed a parachute. To get the sign off are you also required to jump your pack job as well? Should you be required to?

I'm not a big fan of regulating things one way or another, I much prefer recommendation. Having said that, I strongly recommend that you go out and jump your pack job.

Modern parachutes are designed to be amazingly reliable. I have seen people who were maddeningly meticulous about their pack jobs as well as those who just threw it in the bag and jumped it, and don't recall a great deal of difference between the two groups in terms of malfunction rate.

By packing your own parachute you stand to benefit in a number of ways. For one thing, it demystiies the whole thing as you develop a hands-on familiarity with everything from soup to nuts.

For another, you have the opportunity to perform your very own preflight inspection of your equipment. If you see a brake line finger trap that looks like it's worn a bit more than you like, or something else where your reaction is "I don't like the looks of that," you can bring it to the attention of someone who has been around longer and find out if it's a non-issue or something that could be a problem.

When you are at pull altitude, it is nice to have a working knowledge of that upon which you are depending to bring you to earth in a nice, controlled fashion. I know it is reassuring to have someone who trust to prepare the gear, but it is even better when the person you trust the most is yourself.

The only way I know to develop an intimate familiarity with your gear is to work with it. Pack it yourself, fire the reserve when it's due and participate in the repack if you can find a rigger who doesn't mind. I prefer to have a customer on hand while I'm working on their gear, since it's their life it will save if the reserve works as advertised. I also want to demystify the reserve, so they understand that it's just another parachute (albeit a very carefully packed variant).

Jumping your own pack jobs is a really good idea, and can be a useful way of honing some lifesaving skills. In addition, you can dial in the kind of openings YOU like with your canopy, as well as saving time and money.


Blue skies,

Winsor


aggie04  (C License)

Jun 27, 2004, 1:31 PM
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Re: [timbarrett] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Im still working on my A so take what i have to say with a grain of salt but i starting packing about 2 weeks before i started Aff and every jump so far except for one has been my own pack job. My first AFF was my own pack job. I think it is a great idea to jump your own, not only has it made me a more confident packer it has made me a more confident skydiver. There is nothing like looking above you and seeing your canopy and knowing YOU are the one that packed that thing!!


sundevil777  (D License)

Jun 27, 2004, 2:51 PM
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Re: [pccoder] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To this day still have never jumped mine, but never back either.

What do you mean by never back?

90 jumps and never used your own pack job!

Kids today, I tell ya, back in my day...[/grumpy old man]


benny  (C License)

Jun 27, 2004, 3:21 PM
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Re: [pccoder] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

i wish you luck getting your brand new gear packed... 90 jumps and never jumped his own pack, sheesh. you might shoulda practiced with some at least slightly used stuff before getting in to new gear as i expect you might find yourself getting a little frustrated, anyway, i had to jump my own pack to get the check dive portion of the card signed.


slug  (B License)

Jun 27, 2004, 5:11 PM
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Re: [benny] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Guy's and Dolls

Packers need to make a living to you knowSmile

Back in the day and maybe at still at some smaller DZ's the static line course was taught over a three evening period. The last night the F.J. student packed the rig they would jump the next day and put their name on it.

Where thers some malfunctions? Yep but IMO they were related to poor body position on exit rather than packing error. I've seen this done on both rounds and squares.

At larger DZ's they don't have enough rigs or the time to allow students to do this.However after my first couple of jumps I'd rent/borrow a rig asap and pack the hellout of it.

Jumping and not packing is like getting married and not having sex (at least on your honeymoon)Frown.

R.i.P.


YahooLV  (D License)

Jun 27, 2004, 6:35 PM
Post #11 of 46 (1922 views)
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Re: [timbarrett] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

you pack it...you jump it!


unformed  (C 35541)

Jun 27, 2004, 9:13 PM
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Re: [timbarrett] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm. I won't jump anyboy's pack jobs but my own. Not that I don't trust them, but hell, if it fails, I'd rather have it be my fault .... and I figure I'll put a bit more effort into packing it exactly as I want it (ie: nose rolled to hell and back)

actually, i would jump others pack jobs, but prefer my own ....


(This post was edited by unformed on Jun 27, 2004, 9:14 PM)


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Jun 28, 2004, 6:51 AM
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Re: [slotperfect] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

That is exactly what I was going to say. I'm glad I packed my own that first time AND went and jumped it. It still to this day, for me, the most nerve racking jump I've ever done. The fact that I packed an opener, really made me trust in my ability to keep packing...


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jun 28, 2004, 6:54 AM
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Re: [freakflyer9999] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
His confidence in his ability to train us and to pack his reserve, lead to our confidence in our ability to pack.
Naw, I bet he was just real close to repack time on his reserve.Laugh


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Jun 28, 2004, 9:17 AM
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Re: [timbarrett] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

It was sort of a rite of passage at my DZ. The excitement!


Brian425  (A 45378)

Jun 30, 2004, 9:57 AM
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Re: [timbarrett] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had to jump mine. Pete made me unpack it again after I had packed under his supervision. I packed. I was going to unpack it when he said "When are you goin to jump it?" No signature without jumping it.

Parachutes want to open. Just be careful and go slow. You'll get it.

B


Brian425  (A 45378)

Jun 30, 2004, 10:01 AM
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Re: [winsor] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Winsor,
I agree with 99% of what you say. for me saving time by packing is out of the question. It's just my pack jobs can take 30 minutes or more easily. I'm just slow. Everything else is spot on.

B


feuergnom  (D License)

Jun 30, 2004, 12:08 PM
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Re: [timbarrett] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

that's one of the few things i still don't get - that it is _not_ common for u.s. students to learn to pack their chute starting with jump # 1

imho learning how to pack is one of the basics of skydiving and every student should be more than eager to do it. having made 25 jumps without even packing once is ridiculous

what would you do if you came to a dz without a packer? make one jump and then?
skydiving is a sport that puts great emphasis on being responsible for yourself. start with learning how to pack & don't rely on others


skyyhi  (B 26847)

Jun 30, 2004, 1:02 PM
Post #19 of 46 (1688 views)
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Re: [timbarrett] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I packed it up with supervision and then went and jumped it. I never even thought twice about it. Still don't. I love to do my own pack jobs, not because it is easy or anything but because I can make it do what I want it to do. As I pack more and more for myself, I get better and faster at making sure it opens on heading and softly. Don't get me wrong, I do love the packers at Elsinore and Perris and have utilized them many times, but its very satisfying to do this job myself. . .


kosanke  (D 23716)

Jun 30, 2004, 1:53 PM
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Re: [timbarrett] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

packing is just part of the education. take time to learn everything you can from all the sources that are there. like this web site. there are packing tips in rigging.
as for me. the hell with learning. it's easier to pack a katana 97 than my old pd230. less fabric.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 1, 2004, 6:46 AM
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Re: [feuergnom] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
that's one of the few things i still don't get - that it is _not_ common for u.s. students to learn to pack their chute starting with jump # 1

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Two reasons: first, instructors are so busy cramming "must know" survival skills into first jump students, that there is simply not enough time in a day to teach packing.
Later on (i.e. after a dozen jumps) we start teaching them how to pack.

The second reason is professional packers. Busy schools do not have the time to teach packing during a busy Saturday afternoon. They also prefer the low malfunction rate afforded by staff packers.
Many AFF students only do the bare minimum of pack jobs to earn their A License, then never touch another rubber band for the rest of their lives.
Fine by me!
Professional packers mean the DZ can launch more airplanes per day and more money gets spread around DZ employees.
If wealthy skydivers arrive at a small DZ without professional packers, they only make one jump, then go home.
Let's face it, packing is hot, dirty, grimy work. I much prefer Keith or Andrew to pack my tandem rigs. I am just too cheap to pay them to pack my Stiletto.


feuergnom  (D License)

Jul 1, 2004, 9:05 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

things are definitely different here (europe/austria)

Quote:
instructors are so busy cramming "must know" survival skills into first jump students, that there is simply not enough time in a day to teach packing.

imho knowing how to pack a parachute _is_ a must know/survival skill


Quote:
Busy schools do not have the time to teach packing during a busy Saturday afternoon.

tandem masters haul passengers to make cash schools haul students to do the same? (of course i know that any dz benefits if the scholl has a lot of students. but i feel that something valuable is lost if you walk on _this_ way)


Quote:
They also prefer the low malfunction rate afforded by staff packers

i'm curious about numbers - got any statistics?
when we train students how to pack, they need to get their packing-card signed off (this is either done by a teacher or a coach). forgot one check? start over. and most of our students become proficient really quick, no matter what they pack some of them can handle slippery zp better than me Crazy


Quote:
Many AFF students only do the bare minimum of pack jobs to earn their A License, then never touch another rubber band for the rest of their lives

i know i don't have to be a computer expert to write this post. i know i don't have to be a mechanic to drive a car. but i bet that most of the students that don't care about learning how to pack know much more how to fix a computer or a car or a motorbike ...


Quote:
Professional packers mean the DZ can launch more airplanes per day and more money gets spread around DZ employees

reads like: it's a money thing Frown


what get's my nerve is this consumer-attitude. "no, i don't have to do xxxx because i can pay xxxx to do it for me" reads like "i have a right to remain ignorant"


edit to ad: this is not mennt to be offensive to you. it is meant to critizise an attitude


(This post was edited by feuergnom on Jul 1, 2004, 9:15 AM)


slug  (B License)

Jul 1, 2004, 4:40 PM
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Re: [feuergnom] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

[reply]things are definitely different here (europe/austria)

[reply]My response is a general one based on what I've seen at some of the larger DZ's in the US. Every dropzone is run differently I'm sure that at the smaller DZ's with smallers airplanes and less students thing might still be done like their done in your country.


[quote]instructors are so busy cramming "must know" survival skills into first jump students, that there is simply not enough time in a day to teach packing

>>imho knowing how to pack a parachute _is_ a must know/survival skill..[/quote]

I agree somewhat but also depends on where you jump, how often you jump and how much $$$ you got.


[quote]Busy schools do not have the time to teach packing during a busy Saturday afternoon.[/quote]

tandem masters haul passengers to make cash schools haul students to do the same? (of course i know that any dz benefits if the scholl has a lot of students. but i feel that something valuable is lost if you walk on _this_ way)

[:)][;)][:(]This is North america a lot of DZ's (maybe not clubs) are interested in maximum efficency and minimum cost. A student will take a hour or .....? to pack a rig a packer can do it in 10 minutes so the DZ needs less rigs for the same number of student less time for instuction. $$$$


[quote]They also prefer the low malfunction rate afforded by staff packers[/quote]

>>i'm curious about numbers - got any statistics?
when we train students how to pack, they need to get their packing-card signed off (this is either done by a teacher or a coach). forgot one check? start over. and most of our students become proficient really quick, no matter what they pack some of them can handle slippery zp better than me [crazy]>>

IMO Students will be very careful packing their own rig. "Back in the day" of static lines student malfuntions were due more to poor poor body position (reverse arch) than poor packing. Sorry no statistics just a old fart.


[quote]Many AFF students only do the bare minimum of pack jobs to earn their A License, then never touch another rubber band for the rest of their lives[/quote]

i know i don't have to be a computer expert to write this post. i know i don't have to be a mechanic to drive a car. but i bet that most of the students that don't care about learning how to pack know much more how to fix a computer or a car or a motorbike ...

Student are scared of packing, and the physical effort If they have a choice and the $$$ they'll take the easier, faster way.[:P] Computer: mouse, reboot, ctrl alt delete. Driving a car? No comment[:(]
[quote]Professional packers mean the DZ can launch more airplanes per day and more money gets spread around DZ employees[/quote]

>>reads like: it's a money thing [:(] >>

Exactly[:)] and the dumbing down of skydivers in the US.[shocked] excuse me delete that[:|]providing "good customer service" to jumpers who don't have the time to learn how to pack and want to make a lot of jumps/day. Also helps the DZ recover some of the costs of nice airplanes and facilities.

[quote]what get's my nerve is this consumer-attitude. "no, i don't have to do xxxx because i can pay xxxx to do it for me" reads like "i have a right to remain ignorant" [/quote]

Welcome to Skydiving at some of the DZ's in the US.

R.I.P.






edit to ad: this is not mennt to be offensive to you. it is meant to critizise an attitude[/reply]


newsstand  (A 44158)

Jul 4, 2004, 7:12 AM
Post #24 of 46 (1561 views)
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Re: [Brian425] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Winsor,
I agree with 99% of what you say. for me saving time by packing is out of the question. It's just my pack jobs can take 30 minutes or more easily. I'm just slow. Everything else is spot on.

B

The more you pack the faster they get. Mine used to to 45 minutes to an hour. Now I am down to 30. My packing instructor who is also a packer earning money at the DZ recommended that I pack everytime until I had it under 20 minutes.


Croc  (D 29552)

Jul 5, 2004, 7:04 AM
Post #25 of 46 (1509 views)
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Re: [timbarrett] A Licence - pack it and jump it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had to jump my pack job before the DZ owner would sign me off. My pack jobs are not very neat. I flat pack--never learned to pro pack. I have decent openings and it seems to me that I generally pack faster than the average pro packer. Why learn to pro pack? Some jumpers at our DZ have thousands of jumps and never pro pack. (Sorry if this is a different subject, but I think many people are intimidated by learning to pro pack, while flat packing is so simple--four line and control line check takes about 30 seconds--that I don't know why manufacturers recommend pro packing. Then again, what do I know?)


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