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new camera flyers

 

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mgerra28  (D 19108)

Jun 14, 2004, 9:51 AM
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new camera flyers Can't Post

What do most DZ's do when regular jumpers turn into Staff?. We have some new people who want to try and get in the rotation flying camera. We already have enough. however, their practicing shooting tandem videos then trying to sell the video to the customer(The video really sucks)behind the DZO back. Now they bitch and whine because theres no job for them. But they still do it regardless. What's bad is 1. their video is terrible never in frame for more than 5 secs 2. They buy the video because of pressure from these guys and go home and show their friends. which makes us look bad.
Just would like to know what some of you guys do at your DZ's as us talking to them is not working.CrazyCrazyCrazyCrazy


jdhill  (D License)

Jun 14, 2004, 10:01 AM
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Re: [mgerra28] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

It will probably need to come from the DZ management...

I thnk everyone who has done student camera work started by doing unpaid lurks... but, IMO, it needs to be with the permission of the management of the DZ and camera concession.

Just because you strap a camera to your head, you don't have a right to get in the rotation.
J


dragon2  (D 101989)

Jun 14, 2004, 10:08 AM
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Re: [mgerra28] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

I think at our DZ the policy is, you can lurk a tandem if you want (and have permission from the TM and the chief I's). However you never even mention/show your vid to the customer. Or if they ask, tell them it's for learning, only, and that they cannot have it.

This way you can learn but not be in the way of the regulars.

No idea how you can BECOME a regular tho, never asked.


vdschoor  (D 27300)

Jun 14, 2004, 10:25 AM
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Re: [mgerra28] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the solution is simple, why do the tandem instructors allow these people to go with them?

When I walked up to the tandem instructors a little over a year ago, the requirements were clear.
300+ skydives
50+ jumps on your camera suit

Then when trying to sell the video, this would go through the video concession.

The tandem instructors are able to tell whether the video would work out (sort of) by watching the camera fliers do their flying in front.
We have the advantage that our most experienced tandem instructors used to be video people themselves so they see exactly what you're doing and are great coaches for improving your video skills.

They didn't let me on untill they had seen me over several RW dives and people vouched for me.

Iwan


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 14, 2004, 10:48 AM
Post #5 of 31 (1597 views)
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Re: [mgerra28] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
their practicing shooting tandem videos then trying to sell the video to the customer(The video really sucks)behind the DZO back

Easy answer.

The DZO, if he/she really does not approve of the practice needs to ground the people doing this, and the instructors allowing them on the jumps.

Edit: But Drowned is a good idea.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Jun 14, 2004, 11:25 AM)


Deuce  (D 25597)

Jun 14, 2004, 11:22 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
needs to dround the people doing this,

Ground, right? Not Drowned?

Yeah, I'm with JP here. It's like "what the hell?" The DZO allows the TM's to jump on rotation. If the policy is violated, ground everybody involved.

If there's no discipline with regards to people inviting themselves to lurk tandems without permission, bad video is the least of your problems, mgerra.


mgerra28  (D 19108)

Jun 14, 2004, 11:29 AM
Post #7 of 31 (1570 views)
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Re: [Deuce] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

These people get permission, they have around 600 jumps or so but its just for practice. The problem i have is them selling the shit video to the people just so they can get their slot paid for. I think the best answer is to ground them like you said. Its just weird how people become different when they put a camera on their head they automatically think they can shoot video


Deuce  (D 25597)

Jun 14, 2004, 11:40 AM
Post #8 of 31 (1561 views)
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Re: [mgerra28] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, we all have to learn, and most all of us sucked at it for a while.

Some people in management positions aren't good managers. Me and Iwan are lucky in that getting in the rotation at our DZ is clear. Get good enough at RW that tandem masters will allow you to jump with them, and not all of them will, at first. Get good with your wingsuit, and not using wings is not an option. Then pay your way and try to sell the video spec, if it's good enough.

Eventually the DZ is short camera fliers and you get your crack. Screw it up, and you get back in line.


freefalle  (D 27777)

Jun 14, 2004, 12:11 PM
Post #9 of 31 (1548 views)
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Re: [mgerra28] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

I think its bad practice to lurk a tandem video and then try to sell it. people dont have the "right" to lurk a tandem for pratice its up to the DZO and the TM. I too think the solution is quiet simple, if a new camrea flyer lurks the tandem, upon landing the TM, the new camera flyer and maybe, a staff video should take a quick few minutes to watch the video. This would be a good time for pointers and improvement after that, if its good enough to show the customer, then show them, if at that point the customer wants to buy the video, the can go through the consession and buy it at the regular price and the rookie camera flyer should be paid the regular rate. this way everybody makes out okay. I dont think its right for a rookie camera flyer to try to sell a video of a tandem behind the staffs back, in the end its just going to cause problems and if your trying to get on staff in any position its bad to cause problems.


motherhucker  (D 19)

Jun 14, 2004, 1:11 PM
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Re: [mgerra28] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

at our dz, anyone who does this will end up grounded or banned. If I catch them doing it, I'll have a chat with them and give a stern warning. It's about the best way to insure that you NEVER get into the video rotation.

If you want a job at McDonald's would you show them how great you were by selling your homemade shite-burgers in the parking lot?

I'm so sick of people who think that jumping with cameras makes you a camera flyer.

Flying video is a JOB. It's way more fun then flipping burgers (I'd imagine, anyhow) but IMHO, if you can't be a professional, then stick to fun jumps.
mh


(This post was edited by motherhucker on Jun 14, 2004, 1:14 PM)


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jun 14, 2004, 7:14 PM
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Re: [mgerra28] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

When I asked my DZO and the head of the video concession if I could practice on tandems, I was given the following conditions.

I could not under any circumstances give the video to the student for free or cheap.

and,

If the customer saw the video, and wanted a copy, then great. They could buy it by paying the standard video rate. The video concession would use the standard leader, we'd shoot some interviews, and give the student the standard package. The high cost of the standard package would discourage the student from buying a crappy product. This served as a great motivator for me to work on a sellable product.

I'm sure there's a handfull of solutions to the problem, but without a doubt the DZO has to be pro-active in addressing it - no matter what solution they pick.

_Am


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 14, 2004, 7:20 PM
Post #12 of 31 (1476 views)
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Re: [jdhill] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
it needs to be with the permission of the management of the DZ and camera concession.

And the instructors, specifically the head instructor and the instructor(s) on any given jump.Smile


Billy  (D 25768)

Jun 14, 2004, 8:20 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

Again,
I'm from a small DZ,, to get into shooting tandems I was shooting a second camera view initially, if good it was used to supplement the camera flyers,, then after the TM's were OK with me being in their airspace I was allowed to jump primary camera on folks who didn't want the video anyway,, then when they/we watched it, we would offer to sell them a copy at regular price... going behind the back of the folks who have spent a lot of time and $$$$ is just friggin wrong IMHO
Billy


jdhill  (D License)

Jun 14, 2004, 8:34 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

Every DZ will be different... some have a chief Instructor, some a camera consession... some its just the DZO... bottom line is, whom ever is in charge of the operation needs to be OK with lurkers (any, not just camera) on student jumps, as well as the instructor on the jump, and for that matter, the student too... and beyond that... whom ever is in charge needs to be even more OK with that lurker trying to sell something to the student, and really needs to ensure that it is not crap that is going out to represent their DZ.

J


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 14, 2004, 8:44 PM
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Re: [jdhill] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
whom ever is in charge needs to be even more OK with that lurker trying to sell something to the student, and really needs to ensure that it is not crap that is going out to represent their DZ.

I've seen some serious undertable video selling at various DZs that was a very bad video. You're right too, it does make the DZ look bad.


skysurfcam  (F 446)

Jun 15, 2004, 6:23 AM
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Re: [Deuce] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Get good with your wingsuit, and not using wings is not an option.

Jeeze, WTF? Why the he11 not? Crazy

I really can't see the sense of that rule.


C.


Deuce  (D 25597)

Jun 15, 2004, 7:50 AM
Post #17 of 31 (1397 views)
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Re: [skysurfcam] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Get good with your wingsuit, and not using wings is not an option.

Jeeze, WTF? Why the he11 not? Crazy

I really can't see the sense of that rule.


C.

Because a camera flier in a wingsuit can move much faster than a freeflier (I freefly too) with just about any weight range of student/TM.

We want everybody to get the same quality of video without excuses. A competent camera flier in a camera suit can do that. Most freefly suits won't allow for a pop-up drogue shot when the tandem pair is light and moving about 100 mph.

The quality and composition of the video should not change do to the fall rate of the tandem pair. Without a wingsuit, it does.

We've had plenty of "bad-ass" camera fliers swagger up to the concession and spec a video just to find out they can't get the shots we insist we get for our customers. If they could get them, nobody would care what they wore.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 15, 2004, 8:56 AM
Post #18 of 31 (1376 views)
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Re: [Deuce] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Get good with your wingsuit, and not using wings is not an option.

Jeeze, WTF? Why the he11 not? Crazy

I really can't see the sense of that rule.


C.

Because a camera flier in a wingsuit can move much faster than a freeflier (I freefly too) with just about any weight range of student/TM.

We want everybody to get the same quality of video without excuses. A competent camera flier in a camera suit can do that. Most freefly suits won't allow for a pop-up drogue shot when the tandem pair is light and moving about 100 mph.

The quality and composition of the video should not change do to the fall rate of the tandem pair. Without a wingsuit, it does.

We've had plenty of "bad-ass" camera fliers swagger up to the concession and spec a video just to find out they can't get the shots we insist we get for our customers. If they could get them, nobody would care what they wore.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Because I have only worked with ONE guy (Kai) who could consistently stay with all sizes and shapes of tandems without a specialized camera suit. Even so, Kai used to grumble about my slow fall rate when I jumped with light weight students.


skysurfcam  (F 446)

Jun 16, 2004, 12:44 AM
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Re: [Deuce] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

Now normally I watch the river flow by here, and try not to get too worried about the bold statments. Today however, I feel the need to add a little perspective...

Quote:
Because a camera flier in a wingsuit can move much faster than a freeflier (I freefly too) with just about any weight range of student/TM.

You state that like it's a fact. That Deuce, is what's known known as an opinion, and opinions, as with skill levels and body shapes, vary.

Quote:
We want everybody to get the same quality of video without excuses.

An admirable aim.

Quote:
A competent camera flier in a camera suit can do that.

And so can a competent camera flier in a suit that works for him/her.

Quote:
Most freefly suits won't allow for a pop-up drogue shot when the tandem pair is light and moving about 100 mph.


Depends on the suit/person. I could show you a pro-track graph of a skysurf vid with a speed of 198 down to 78 and back out to 110.

Quote:
The quality and composition of the video should not change do to the fall rate of the tandem pair. Without a wingsuit, it does.

Again, an opinion stated like a fact. Who's to say that someone in a different suit can't shoot good video?

Quote:
We've had plenty of "bad-ass" camera fliers swagger up to the concession and spec a video just to find out they can't get the shots we insist we get for our customers. If they could get them, nobody would care what they wore.

Not being "bad-ass" myself, I can't comment. I've never really learned to swagger. I do know how to produce a product I can be proud of in more than one type of suit however. No disrespect to wingsuits, I've owned em, still got a couple. Personally I don't feel I produce as good a vid in wings as I can in a Baggy. Artistic choice. Yep I have to set up my helmet right, and crane my neck to get the look up shot right, but my artistic range is bigger in a baggy. The absolute best tandem vid I've ever seen was shot by a chick in a pair of baggy jeans and a T-shirt. Made me re-think my whole approach. As a TM I've seen good and bad from both wing suits and baggy's, enough to reapect the choice of those who wear what works for them

Remember, opinions vary. You guys may well be getting great shots in your wings, but you may be missing out on some too...


Cheers,

C.


jdhill  (D License)

Jun 16, 2004, 7:07 AM
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Re: [skysurfcam] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

It may be based on opinion, or their experiance, at their DZ... but it is their requirement... so if you want to work there, you gotta follow it.

J


StevePhelps  (D 26782)

Jun 16, 2004, 9:58 AM
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Re: [jdhill] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

at our small cessna DZ I was required to pay my slot to lurk a non-video tandem (TM okayed me to lurk) I then showed the video to the DZO -- if he thought it was worthy (he did) he offered it at normal video concession price to the tandem. If they paid - great I was paid like normal videographers, if not, I paid my slot. After repeatedly doing this and proving my camera flying skills were on par with his regular fliers I was offered a slot in the rotation. In short -- get permission from DZO and TM, pay your dues and earn your slot in the rotation. If you don't measure up? Practice on your buddies. NEVER go behind the DZ and offer a video to tandems.


Deuce  (D 25597)

Jun 16, 2004, 10:14 AM
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Re: [skysurfcam] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

I never used bold, SSC.

If a freefly suit is baggy enough to slow a flier down to 95, it will be very problematic for that same flier in that suit to get to 140, belly-to-earth, cheststrap showing on a passenger in a Vector harness.

I wear a tight suit with huge wings and can fly with anything but Aubrey Tongue , so far.

I've been running into some very defensive freefliers lately. Yikes.

Like I said in my original post, if you can get the shots, bully for you! I would love to see it, it must be very impressive.

PS, what shots does a camera wing suit prevent ?


skysurfcam  (F 446)

Jun 23, 2004, 7:08 AM
Post #23 of 31 (1174 views)
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Re: [Deuce] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I never used bold, SSC.
Actually I was using a little, humour [b]bold statement for what I considered a bold statement. Sorry I'll type a little slower next timeWink Also, I will admit I have no idea what SSC means?Blush

In reply to:
If a freefly suit is baggy enough to slow a flier down to 95, it will be very problematic for that same flier in that suit to get to 140, belly-to-earth, cheststrap showing on a passenger in a Vector harness.
Hmmm. Imagine a camera flier rich enough to own two baggy suits...

In reply to:
I wear a tight suit with huge wings and can fly with anything but Aubrey , so far.
Whaaaat? Only the one suit for camera? What kinda professional are you??? (Note: dzdotcom doesn't have a markup clicky for "Gentle ribbing tone..."Smile)

In reply to:
I've been running into some very defensive freefliers lately. Yikes.
Personally, I'm not freeflier. I'm a cameraman. Want to pull an 4 way flower off the door, transition to a spock and then do some knarly 4 way (insert trendy new word I don't even pretend to understand) and I aint your guy. Want it in frame, lit right, and done safe, and I'll make sure it is.

In reply to:
Like I said in my original post, if you can get the shots, bully for you! I would love to see it, it must be very impressive.
So why demand a wing(ed)suit for shooting tandems? The ability to shoot a chest strap shot on a RWS tandem is not to be all end all of tandem vid. It's also not exclusive to winged suit wearers. Bag, helmet setup and an arch will allow all but the most ardent Mc'Supersizers to get that shot. That was what I was getting at in my original post...

In reply to:
PS, what shots does a camera wing suit prevent ?
I wanted to be flipent, and say "None. What shots does a baggy suit prevent?, but I realised the likeleyhood of suffering a shoutdown again.

So...


Camera wing suits tend, by their nature to be very digital. Wings out, wings in, booties out, booties in. Driving, stopping. On, off. Bag is just that, bag. Hang some out hang some more out, tuck some in. My opinion is that bag lends its self to a more analog style. So here's two examples. I'm not going to suggest they can't be done in a wing suit, just that I've never seen it done well.

1. Climbout and exit.
Watch a wing suited tripod climb out. It's kinda fun to watch tham carefully tuck away those wind catchers while they transition to the floater bar. Now watch the exit. Head up and out, wings tucked, booties out, drivedivedrive to meet the tandem at the bottom of the drogue. Nice.

Watch a baggy climbout. Well, now he's out on the bar, but he's hanging off it with one hand and one toe, When the Tm exits, he rolls off from a 90 to a 180 invert, framing tne students face, and hanging close and slightly below. As the Tm throws the drogue, he rolls over to a standard cheststrap/face shot, and continues as per normal. drivedivedrive time, nill. Nice.

2. Deployment shots.

Tm waves off.. (based on RWS/PDF TM gear, on a strong this ones much easier/safer for the camerathingy)

Camera suiter backs up, pops a little(waves at the student), gets a nice shot as they deploy, transitions to a backflying the wing as they go past, shots a nice dissapear shot as they go, shows the alti, rolls over, tracks a little, deploys, and heads back to the farm.

Baggy suiter, backs off a little, waves, smooothly transitions to a kneefly/ standup while waiting for bag liftoff. At Tm linestretch, waves to student(reads the now inframe alti) smoothly moves to backfly/ backtrack, and films TM pair opening whilst clearing airspace. At 3000, backloops over, gets big and dumps.
Also nice.


Deuce, I'm not saying camera wings don't have a place. For big guys, they're pretty much mandatory if you want to guarantee your work. For Medium to slight builds, you'd probably be surprised what can be achieved without them. This thread however is about
Quote:
new camera fliers
. I just think it's wrong to say to them that if you're not wearing wings, you can do this job.

Cheers, lighten up, don't be a defensive wing wearer,

Craig.


(This post was edited by skysurfcam on Jun 23, 2004, 7:13 AM)


Deuce  (D 25597)

Jun 23, 2004, 7:54 AM
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Re: [skysurfcam] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Also, I will admit I have no idea what SSC means?
SkySurfCam SSC, I am a lazy typist.

Dude, back to the original post, if you can get the shots, you can jump in pasties. It just hasn't happened yet at my DZ.

Smile


lister55  (D 26917)

Jun 23, 2004, 9:58 AM
Post #25 of 31 (1144 views)
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Re: [skysurfcam] new camera flyers [In reply to] Can't Post

When I fly my camera slot I use a wing suit and I use much in the way you have described using your baggy suit. I can get the head down exit and the knee flying at pull time shot all with my camera suit. I like the camera suit because I have all the versatility of the freefly suit plus the range of a camera suit. Its all about learning to fly it. Now if you can do it all in a baggy suit and thats what you are comfortable with then by all means use it. But remember the camera suit can be flown to the same extremes. This is for tandem vids or 4-way only here... I dont use it for FF vids.


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