Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Wingsuit "freefall" time?

 


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
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Jun 9, 2004, 2:18 AM
Post #1 of 17 (1711 views)
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Wingsuit "freefall" time? Can't Post

Following on the "log tunnel time" thread.

As an old CReW dog with 700 rotation dives, my average freefall time is a little below average for someone with 4000+ dives, at a little over 50 hours.

This made many people happy.

Now I'm doing Wingsuit dives, and I'm catching up on all that lost freefall time - and I have the occasional comment that it's not "free" fall.

Do I log it? If not, do I go back and take out the time I've spent under a Tandem drouge on +- 700 tandems?

Thoughts?

t


speedy

Jun 9, 2004, 2:32 AM
Post #2 of 17 (1701 views)
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Re: [Tonto] Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would log it, if you want to. It will help you review how slowly you were falling.

Let's face it, with over 4000 skydives, who gives a rats arse whether you have 40 hrs, 50 hrs or 60 hrs freefall time.

When I got my Pro-Track I started logging the time stated on the Pro-Track. I soon gave up though because the numbers were not easy to add Blush
For me a 14,000 ft skydive is almost always 60 sec freefall. I lose some time on relative jumps but probaly gain some on tandem videos.


Newbie  (C License)

Jun 9, 2004, 7:40 AM
Post #3 of 17 (1603 views)
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Re: [Tonto] Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

i'm a 100 jump wonder and don't know jack but i would say to those who say it's not free fall that until you're going up instead of down, it's logable time.


The111  (D 29246)

Jun 9, 2004, 8:25 AM
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Re: [Tonto] Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think perhaps the word freefall is outdated. If it means moving downwards under the influence of gravity, then canopy flight is freefall. If it means body flight, then it should be called body flight. Canopy flight, wingsuit flight, body flight, etc are all skills that are built on their own exposure times. I guess what makes this trickier is that some body flight skills transfer to wingsuit skills, and probably vice versa even since in both discipline you are flying with your BODY. Under a parachute your mostly just flying with your hands, even if you are using your body (harness turn), you are not shaping your body to redirect airflow, which you do in both body flight AND wingsuit flight. Under a parachute the airflow over the parachute matters. With a wingsuit, the airflow over YOU matters, just like in "freefall". So yes, I think it counts as freefall.


(This post was edited by The111 on Jun 9, 2004, 8:27 AM)


bmcd308  (D 27472)

Jun 9, 2004, 9:16 AM
Post #5 of 17 (1571 views)
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Re: [Tonto] Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

With freefall speeds varying so much in skydiving due to wingsuits and freeflying, maybe we should keep track of total distance covered vertically rather than total time spent.

But I agree with the poster above who says that with 4K jumps, who cares?

Before going with a group, I've been asked how many skydives I had. I've been asked how many sit jumps I had when I was going out with other freeflyers who were going to use me as a base. I've been asked how many headdown jumps I had. Scotty Carbone even asked me how many RW jumps I had in the past three months before letting me on a 12 way he organized. But I've never been asked how much freefall time I had.


Ron

Jun 9, 2004, 9:29 AM
Post #6 of 17 (1560 views)
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Re: [Tonto] Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In reply to:
Now I'm doing Wingsuit dives, and I'm catching up on all that lost freefall time - and I have the occasional comment that it's not "free" fall.

Do I log it? If not, do I go back and take out the time I've spent under a Tandem drouge on +- 700 tandems?

Thoughts?

Are you falling?

Then I say log it. You are making a skydive that will require you to open a parachute to save your life....Both with a wingsuit and under drougefall.

When people start landing wingsuits for fun...Then that may change..Until then log it.

Desides I have only been asked once ever.


(This post was edited by Ron on Jun 9, 2004, 9:48 AM)


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Jun 9, 2004, 9:37 AM
Post #7 of 17 (1557 views)
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Re: [Tonto] Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

A wingsuit jump IS freefall time.
If you are under your canopy, you are parachuting.
When you are in your wingsuit you are not under a parachute.
It's a suit with extended material between the arms to torso and between your legs to adjust your fallrate and glide angle.
An RW siut is fit accordingly to your size and material is added or it fits tighter for a specific fallrate, as is the same with a freefly suit.
Anyone that has told you that your wingsuit is not freefall time must be jumping NAKED then right?
After so many CRW jumps you surely must be enjoying your freefall time now!
I say F'm and LOG IT if you want!
-


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Jun 9, 2004, 10:48 AM
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Re: [Tonto] Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe the SIM says droguefall time counts as freefall time. (They use them together with a slash, I believe, implying they're the same thing.)

Based on that, I take wingsuit flight to also be freefall time.

Another way to look at it is stability; this goes back to someone's post above about flying one's body. My perspective on this is with most canopies over one's head, stability is all but guaranteed. In freefall this is not the case. Even in droguefall stability takes more skill than hanging under a round or square canopy.

Now, a trickier question is whether that one guy with the 39 sq foot canopy can count his entire jump as freefall time...


Staso  (D 24665)

Jun 9, 2004, 10:56 AM
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Re: [speedy] Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When I got my Pro-Track I started logging the time stated on the Pro-Track. I soon gave up though because the numbers were not easy to add Blush

Pro-Track does it for you, there is no need to add it manually.

Stan.


thelem  (C 103786)

Jun 9, 2004, 11:25 AM
Post #10 of 17 (1520 views)
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Re: [Staso] Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, but if you want to write up comments in a paper logbook, then you can get the freefall time from your protrack, rather than just guessing. I belive this is what he was refering to.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jun 9, 2004, 12:48 PM
Post #11 of 17 (1498 views)
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Re: [Tonto] Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

 Hell yaeah log it. Do trackers log FF time? Often times I've got my arm and leg wings on my ass to catch a wayward student or ballistic wingsuiter, Am I falling? My protrac says I am.

I'm logging it as such until I strap on a wingsuit propulsion system that allows me to either climb or maintain altitude for extended periods. THEN I'm going log that time as single engine neither land nor sea, Pilot in command time until burnout and glide.


The111  (D 29246)

Jun 9, 2004, 2:48 PM
Post #12 of 17 (1470 views)
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Re: Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

one guy wrote:

Quote:
i would say to those who say it's not free fall that until you're going up instead of down, it's logable time.

a different guy wrote:

Quote:
I'm logging it as such until I strap on a wingsuit propulsion system that allows me to either climb or maintain altitude for extended periods.

The fact that you're losing altitude shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether or not it's freefall. Canopy flight is characterized by this as well. The thing most unique about skydiving (the "freefall" portion of it) that is not present in any other sport is that you are flying your body (as well as your clothes, jumpsuits, booties, etc, which are all directly controlled by your body). The same is true of wingsuit flight.


(This post was edited by The111 on Jun 9, 2004, 2:52 PM)


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jun 10, 2004, 12:52 PM
Post #13 of 17 (1374 views)
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Re: [Tonto] Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course you log it. Of course you also log all your freefall time as a Tandem Instructor.


nacmacfeegle  (D 11004)

Jun 11, 2004, 2:05 AM
Post #14 of 17 (1332 views)
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Re: [Tonto] Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

"Thoughts? "
Log it, it counts IMHO.
Besides, with your number of jumps, and experience, its really only for your own records/benefit, its not as if you are trying to prove a point, like a noob, or are going for some sort of rating, cos you already have them.

You're pretty well known (notorious?Wink) in SA, so I'm guessing you don't have to show your log book, or do an evaluation dive when you show up at any DZ apart from your regular one.Cool


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
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Jun 11, 2004, 2:23 AM
Post #15 of 17 (1329 views)
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Re: [nacmacfeegle] Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
prove a point, like a noob,

Ahh. It's just dawned on me why some others thought this was an issue. It's the "catch up with Tonto" brigade. If only they knew I still dream of being able to swoop down to a formation like Craig Brown did past me when I had 150 jumps. Craig stopped jumping at about 600, but will always be a God to me...

In reply to:
You're pretty well known (notorious?Wink) in SA, so I'm guessing you don't have to show your log book, or do an evaluation dive when you show up at any DZ apart from your regular one.Cool

LaughLaugh It's been a while since I was asked for a logbook, but unlike many of the "I have 9000 jumps" crew who I never see at the DZ, I do have a logbook. Some of my former AFF students, now aproaching 1000 dives or more have even looked back and seen what a bad boy I once was.Wink

I don't mind showing my logbook at any DZ though, although as a rule I only carry what would give me a D around, like the last 500 jumps or so, non of which are signed anyway!

t


(This post was edited by Tonto on Jun 11, 2004, 7:48 AM)


ernokaikkonen  (D 12)

Jun 16, 2004, 4:13 AM
Post #16 of 17 (1238 views)
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Re: [Tonto] Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

I log my wingsuit time like normal freefall, and droguefall separately from normal freefall. Yes, I have two columns in my logbook; one for freefall and the other for droguefall. Yes, I'm a geek.Blush


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Jun 16, 2004, 1:37 PM
Post #17 of 17 (1198 views)
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Re: [ernokaikkonen] Wingsuit "freefall" time? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey. You still in OZ? Hows the Hurricane treating you?

t



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