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wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps

 

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Poll: wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps
.8 60 / 11%
1 222 / 40%
1.1 174 / 31%
1.2 68 / 12%
1.3+ 36 / 6%
560 total votes
 
teason  (D 18902)

Jun 2, 2004, 9:58 PM
Post #1 of 170 (10237 views)
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wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps Can't Post

Novice/Intermediate wing loadings

I'm hoping someone here can either back me up or critique my opinion of a situation that happened the other day with one of my jumpers.

This jumper who has 90 jumps and an exit weight of 190 - 200lbs went to another DZ and was loaned a Stilleto 150 to try out by the DZO's wife.

I'm thinking that it wasn't appropriate to give someone with 90 jumps an elliptical loaded at 1.26 to 1.33(this is a higher loading than PD recommends for even Advanced jumpers!)

Am I wrong in thinking this?
Am I wrong in keeping the wing loadings at my DZ reasonable?
Am I babying my novices/intermediates by capping their loadings at around 1:1?

I have a few of novices who think I'm holding them back.
Is it time to cut them loose and let them jump canopies that are too advanced or is it the other DZ who has it wrong?

I would love to hear other points of view on the subject of novice wing loadings.

p.s. so would one of my 170lbs jumpers with 70 jumps and a desire for a Vengence 135.


HelpUnsure


damion75  (D 102144)

Jun 3, 2004, 1:16 AM
Post #2 of 170 (10103 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

Well that's about my size - I jump a Spectre 170 and was recently offered a Stilletto 150 to play with. I backed out - that would be a downsize and a new planform...Crazy

What do I think about the situation? It's barking mad. A guy with 70 jumps has NO business playing with a Vengeance... Mad


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 3, 2004, 3:22 AM
Post #3 of 170 (10057 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
This jumper who has 90 jumps and an exit weight of 190 - 200lbs went to another DZ and was loaned a Stilleto 150 to try out by the DZO's wife.

So? Thats clear that he is looking for trouble. I wouldnt be surprised reading about him from the Insidents forum....

Quote:
so would one of my 170lbs jumpers with 70 jumps and a desire for a Vengence 135.
I hope he had the patience too for makeing some hundreds of jumps before trying that.

You can quote me. Ive managed to break my ankle @ jump nr.87 with a PD Navigator WL <1.0. Just ask him what couldve been the result with a Stilleto 150 or Vengence 135?


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jun 3, 2004, 4:15 AM
Post #4 of 170 (10039 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

Depends on the jumper... there is no one size fits all answer.

Someone who picks up canopy control quickly, practices canopy control on every jump, has available and takes advantage of quality canopy control coaching/instruction, gets lucky and doesn't have shit happen to them, etc may be okay under a 1.2-1.3 wingloading.

I wouldn't hand someone with 90 jumps a Stiletto at that wingloading though, regardless of how talented or dedicated to canopy control that person is. My personal view is that newer jumpers should fly something "less aggressive" in both shape and wingloading - and really fly it, not just jump it - until they have over 200 jumps before going to a higher performance canopy.

In reply to:
I have a few of novices who think I'm holding them back.

Point them to billvon's downsizing list. If they can do everything on that list on their current canopies then maybe you are "holding them back." My guess is that they can't yet do everything on that list...

If you are in a position to do so, I'd highly recommend contacting one of the canopy schools and arranging to run a canopy control course at your dz. I know Scott Miller will bring his course to you, and I can highly recommend his basic course to any jumper (but especially to those with under 100 jumps).

Perhaps having an industry recognized expert explain why a Vengeance probably isn't the right choice for a guy with 70 jumps would make your life easier. Wink


chuckbrown  (D 19538)

Jun 3, 2004, 8:16 AM
Post #5 of 170 (9910 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

People are getting wiped out in this sport because of highly loaded canopies. You're absolutely correct in restricting the WL on low-timers. If somebody thinks you're holding them back, let them go someplace else and possibly get hurt. I think the DZO's wife was nuts for giving a 1.3 Stiletto to someone with 90 jumps. PD used to refuse to sell Stilettos unless a jumper had at least 600 jumps. That should say everything. While different people progress at different paces, do you want to be the one who makes a mistake and gives a HP canopy to a novice who you thought could handle it, but couldn't in the end.

IMHO, this exact issue is the biggest problem in skydiving today --- and the biggest killer. Hat's off for taking the tough stand. You're doing these guys a favor even though they don't know enough about the sport to know that.

Edited to add: I knew someone who went around PD's 600 jump limit for Stilettos and bought a used one when he had 300 jumps. He promptly killed himself turning low to avoid obstacles when he landed off DZ.


(This post was edited by chuckbrown on Jun 3, 2004, 11:49 AM)


MarkM  (C 35089)

Jun 3, 2004, 8:18 AM
Post #6 of 170 (9907 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm thinking that it wasn't appropriate to give someone with 90 jumps an elliptical loaded at 1.26 to 1.33(this is a higher loading than PD recommends for even Advanced jumpers!)

Am I wrong in thinking this?
Am I wrong in keeping the wing loadings at my DZ reasonable?
Am I babying my novices/intermediates by capping their loadings at around 1:1?

Not from my novice/intermediate perspective.

I'm on a Tri 160 right now but am looking to replace it because it's a bit worn out. Had a conversation with the DZO Saturday about a sabre2 150, but he wouldn't sell it to me because I'd be loading it over 1.1 and it's a more aggressive cut compared to my Tri. Never mind that I had been doing pretty well with my landings under the Tri.

Well, the next day under my Tri I got too aggressive on my input right after a turn into final(that I made a little too low to begin with) which rocked my canopy into a nice dive right into the ground. I barely managed to PLF out of breaking bones, just got bruised up a little, and I'm sure if I was under anything more aggressive I would've been screwed up pretty badly.

So yeah, you're babying them but until someone invents a canopy flies as a 1.25 under ideal settings but changes into a 1.0 canopy when they make a stupid newbie mistake, they need to be babied.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 3, 2004, 8:49 AM
Post #7 of 170 (9877 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

Your DZO's wife made a bad call: loaning that Stiletto to a junior jumper.

There are two ways to slow the sprint towards tiny canopies. Start by challenging the junior jumper with a series of canopy control exercises, either Bill von's list (on dz.com) or Andreas Tize's(page 39, June 2004 CANPARA Magazine).

The other way to discourage rapid downsizing is to remind them that the new canopy is not "birdman friendly."


skyyhi  (B 26847)

Jun 3, 2004, 9:06 AM
Post #8 of 170 (9866 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

I will do my 100th jump this weekend. I am NOT aggressive about downsizing and don't really care to be. My current canopy is a Sabre 210 and I only weigh 120 lbs - so I am REALLY underloading the thing. . .BUT. . .I can harness turn it, rear riser land it, front riser turn it, stall it, and pretty much wring it out, because I was patient and learned my canopy. I am downsizing to a Hornet 170 (obviously still loading under 1:1). I have flown the 170 several times and know that I have no issues with flying it but it is a bit more agressive than my Sabre. There is absolutely no way at this point in my skydiving career that I could, should or would consider a move to a Stiletto, let alone downsizing to a w/l greater than 1:1. Yes, I am conservative, but I am alive also, and wish to remain that way.


ladyskydiver

Jun 3, 2004, 10:05 AM
Post #9 of 170 (9832 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

90 jumps and loaned a Stilleto 150? Shocked First off, the DZO's wife is nuts to have loaned it out. Wonder how she would have felt had the jumper cratered/femured in? Second off, the jumper is nuts for assuming that they have the skillset to jump it.

Yes, canopy control classes can help and some people are better at flying their canopies than others, but at 90 jumps - that's only 90 landings. Definitely not enough skill set to jump the Stilleto. And the jumper with 70 jumps looking at a Vengence - anyone want to start a bet on when the person femurs/craters in if they get it?


argon

Jun 3, 2004, 10:46 AM
Post #10 of 170 (9806 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

That whole NO FEAR attitude is something I don't understand. Even if the DZO's wife had no worry about the jumper in question-what about other student and low experience jumpers TRYING to learn canopy control in a conservative manner,ie: slower canopies in the traffic pattern. Having undergone an 8 hour surgery to repair a NON skydiving related spinal injury 6 years ago-it scares the shit out of me getting taken out by some want-to-be Swooper skygod under canopy close to the ground. As a formerCertified flight instructor I couldn't imagine turning any lowtime pilot loose in an aircraft with very high wingloadings--so why is this such a problem today at most DZ's?Isn't there something to be said for the adage of Walking first-then running?Thats how relatively unregulated activities-start getting regulated.Just my 2cents


dmbale  (A 44668)

Jun 3, 2004, 11:50 AM
Post #11 of 170 (9764 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

I took longer to learn canopy control so I am jumping a Spectre 190 loaded just under .8. I have downwinded with a face plant and not gotten hurt. I am thinking about downsizing to a 170 but I am not bored with my 190 yet. I still don't have 100% confidence that I can land it on rear risers alone, I don't know how to swoop it, and I can' t consistently land smack in the center of the student circle.


livendive  (D 21415)

Jun 3, 2004, 1:46 PM
Post #12 of 170 (9709 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

Despite not being a "natural", I transitioned to a Tri-175 (wingloading ~1.37:1) at about 55 jumps and managed to continue my progression without injuring myself. If I can do it, there are others out there who can do it much better. That said, I would NOT have loaned someone of that experience a Stiletto at that wingloading...not because of the wingloading, but because of the canopy design. An ex-girlfriend of mine was travelling through Europe without her rig when she had about 80 jumps. Someone loaned her a Stiletto 120 (wingloading ~1.2:1), presumably thinking that it wasn't that much smaller than her usual Tri-135. Trying to turn it into the wind too low garnered her lots of shiny metal in her leg. Wingloading is not the be-all, end-all of determining the appropriateness of a canopy for a person. Responsiveness, dive recovery characteristics, and other factors can be as or more important than a simple size/weight ratio.

Blues,
Dave


fundgh  (C 34140)

Jun 3, 2004, 2:29 PM
Post #13 of 170 (9686 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

Not that it was right, but the DZ where I learned to Skydive encouraged me not to get anything bigger than my Sabre 150 when I bought my first rig. They said I would get bored with anything bigger. I jumped it with a 1.2+ wingloading for the first time at 30 jumps. I never thought twice about it, nor have I ever had a problem flying it or landing it. 130 + jumps later, I don't know if it was the safest recommendation, but I am not going to up size.
I am sure that a Stilleto would be a very poor choice for anybody with less than a couple hundred jumps, but I think size depends on the instructors views.

Fly Safe!


fundgh  (C 34140)

Jun 3, 2004, 2:31 PM
Post #14 of 170 (9684 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

BTW - Does the poll ask for a recommendation or what my experience was?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 3, 2004, 4:15 PM
Post #15 of 170 (9620 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

>I'm thinking that it wasn't appropriate to give someone with 90 >jumps an elliptical loaded at 1.26 to 1.33 . . .

Not unless they have training on that size, are exceptional canopy pilots, and understand the risk. (Of course, everyone considers themselves an exceptional canopy pilot.)

Ask them if they can do the usual (flat turns, flare turns, landing with rear risers, landing in 10 meter circle etc) on a square loaded at 1.3 to 1. If they can, there's a good chance they will be able to handle the Stiletto. If they can't, then they are in grave danger. And if you hear the magic words - "I'll be really, really careful with it" - then they go on the list. There is nothing as dangerous as a jumper with a canopy he is afraid to manuever.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jun 3, 2004, 7:19 PM
Post #16 of 170 (9554 views)
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Re: [skybytch] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Depends on the jumper... there is no one size fits all answer.

gets lucky and doesn't have shit happen to them, etc may be okay under a 1.2-1.3 wingloading.

In reply to:
But you can't rely on luck and shit does happen. It's not good enough to make most your landings survivable. They all have to be survivable. You know that so many of the canopy deaths happen to "conservative pilots who make last second turns to avoid obstacles." That's why low timers should be more conservative in their wing loadings. I know that'll piss off a lot of folks, but it's my 3 cents worth.


teason  (D 18902)

Jun 3, 2004, 9:18 PM
Post #17 of 170 (9516 views)
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Re: [fundgh] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to give you some info on the DZ, we're in Canada where the jumpers usually do about 100 jumps per year, mostly jump Saturday and Sunday and can't jump between October and April unless they can go south and sneek in 20 jumps in 10 days.
It's really hard for us to be as current as those jumping in the south all year round.

Small canopies don't kill, bad judgement kills.
Take someone with low jump numbers, low currency, and a high wing loading..........

We can't think for a second that we can be at the same level as jumpers in the south that do hundreds of jumps per year all year round.

Just fleshing it out.


teason  (D 18902)

Jun 3, 2004, 9:35 PM
Post #18 of 170 (9507 views)
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Re: [livendive] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

Responsiveness, dive recovery characteristics, and other factors can be as or more important than a simple size/weight ratio.
Quote:
Funny you should mention that, the jumper with 70 jumps who wants a vengence 135 origionally bought a Vengence 170 when I told him I wouldn't let load heavier than 1:1.

I can feel myself going grey!


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 3, 2004, 10:49 PM
Post #19 of 170 (9484 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

Responsiveness, dive recovery characteristics are not independent from WL.

ASAK Responsiveness ~ WL.


crutch  (D 10182)

Jun 4, 2004, 7:05 AM
Post #20 of 170 (9413 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

There are so many factors that go into this decision that I can't vote with a clear conscience. So much emphasis is put on wing loading these days (too many desk jockeys with too much time and not enough jumps). Nobody has mentioned anything about the drop zone, such how much landing area , outs (are they tight), etc. Other factors include what kind of experience does this person have outside of skydiving. Is this person wreckless or consevative...?

So... that being said, I would have had to make a spot decision based on a whole lot more info than can be listed in this forum. So, I also cannot condemn (the person loaning the rig) someone for this act either.


livendive  (D 21415)

Jun 4, 2004, 8:02 AM
Post #21 of 170 (9390 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Responsiveness, dive recovery characteristics are not independent from WL.

ASAK Responsiveness ~ WL.

I'm not sure what "ASAK" means in that last sentence, but you do have a point. Obviously these factors are somewhat interrelated, but anyone who jumps a Triathlon 150 and then a Stiletto 150 will notice a substantial difference, and that difference isn't the wingloading.

Blues,
Dave


KevinSpencer  (C 3263)

Jun 4, 2004, 10:33 PM
Post #22 of 170 (9274 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

 Dear Teason,

I think you should get some balls, jk maybe that Stilleto 150 choice wasn't the greatest after all and I'll stick with my saber a little longer.

Your dumb ass friend,

Wink


badlock

Jun 5, 2004, 3:27 AM
Post #23 of 170 (9259 views)
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Re: [teason] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

Where is the problem with higher loadings?
I started AFF 1 with WL 1:1 and switched after 30 Jumps to 1.35:1.
No problem, no big change, but better landings.
In my humble opinion, the right behavior under canopy is so much more important than any load factor.


dmbale  (A 44668)

Jun 5, 2004, 6:04 AM
Post #24 of 170 (9246 views)
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Re: [dmbale] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

I forgot to add that my home DZ has a field elevation of 5500 and that our density altitude can be 9000 when it is warm out.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 5, 2004, 8:42 AM
Post #25 of 170 (9229 views)
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Re: [badlock] wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps [In reply to] Can't Post

>Where is the problem with higher loadings?

Without HP canopy training, higher loadings kill you when you screw up, whereas lower loadings will generally only maim you. With the proper training and experience both can be flown safely.


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