Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Freeflying:
Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative?

Vertifly  (D 27236)

May 12, 2004, 6:00 PM
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 Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? Can't Post
A question came to mind today following a fun jump with some people at the DZ. (all names are hidden to protect the innocent - LOL).

We set up a base sit flyer for the whole dive with some people docking in head down and in the sit position. A round would have been ideal, but it only built with one stinger. Two people had difficulty making it to the formation and later stated that the sit-flyer was too fast. Average speed on the jump was 165mph. The base may have been moving on the vertical plane during part of the jump; this may have contributed to the illusion of being fast.

165mph sounds like a good number for a general freefly speed (whether head-down or sitting). But should it vary between head down and sit or should we assume that head down is a faster position than sitting? I have always thought that both positions demand similar velocity because of the diversity of positions that can be on one dive.

So what do you think...

Should head down and sit be the same speed?

Or are they assumed to be different considering the aerodynamics?

And...if there is such a thing, what do you think "The Average Freefly Speed" should be?

(This post was edited by Vertifly on May 12, 2004, 7:14 PM)

ccowden

May 12, 2004, 6:30 PM
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Absolutely- without question, if you are doing a multi-position dive where some are sit and some head, the speeds should be the same. By that I mean the head down guys aren't trying to go the sit speed or vice versa.

A proper sit should be comparable to the speed of head down. When people learn a sit it tends to be slow because they are flying a "sit" position. Flying on your feet is slightly different in that it you need to be able to fly with people on their heads and not just sit and let people come to you. A proper head up position should actually look very similar to an inverted head down. A sit position will look quite different. Follow?

In my opinion, a sit is one thing and flying on your feet is another thing entirely. Whether you are flying on your feet or on your head, the speeds should be the same. A true sit-fly position will be slightly slower.

ccowden

May 12, 2004, 7:37 PM
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 Re: [Vertifly] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
Oh, and I tend to think the "average" freefly speed would be more like 155. But that's just my opinion.

brits17  (D 24752)

May 12, 2004, 8:44 PM
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 Re: [ccowden] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
Oh, and I tend to think the "average" freefly speed would be more like 155. But that's just my opinion.

Agreed.

Vertifly  (D 27236)

May 12, 2004, 9:09 PM
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hmmm... that actually sounds a bit slow for my taste. Of it is turns out to be the majority opinion then color me surprized. I don't know a lot of people who fly less than 160mph, consistently, in head-down.

Has anyone else tracked their average terminal in freefly?

May 12, 2004, 9:22 PM
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 Re: [Vertifly] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
I don't know a lot of people who fly less than 160mph, consistently, in head-down

I'd say consistantly head down, yes I agree with 160 ish +

Add transitions carving, over unders and such to the mix, and the average speed goes down quite a bit.

May 12, 2004, 9:34 PM
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 Re: [Vertifly] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
And...if there is such a thing, what do you think "The Average Freefly Speed" should be?

Comfortable and maneuverable is a good average. I realize that’s vague but when I jump with a light experienced flyer, our comfort range can be pretty slow. Flying with a heavier faller, I prefer to let the person fly relaxed. The speed may increase 10 MPH but if the position is comfortable and maneuverable, it's just right.

I have a ball that, if I remember correctly, falls at about 160 MPH. It’s comfortable to fly with but it seems that the position I fly in is quicker with the ball, than with most of the folks I jump with.

So the short answer is… I don’t know

May 12, 2004, 9:52 PM
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Quote:
Has anyone else tracked their average terminal in freefly

I have, sortof. In a sit I *can* fly in the 140s, but relaxed I'm 160-ish. I can easily bomb that up much faster, though.

In my lame excuse for a headdown, I average around 185-200...well, I just suck at headdown, so I guess it really doesn't matter.

ccowden

May 13, 2004, 4:58 AM
Post #9 of 22 (681 views)
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 Re: [Vertifly] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
hmmm... that actually sounds a bit slow for my taste. Of it is turns out to be the majority opinion then color me surprized. I don't know a lot of people who fly less than 160mph, consistently, in head-down.

When everyone is on their head and working together, the speeds tend to pick up quite a bit. Two-way head downs can really get smokin'. But when you have a mix, the speeds need to be on the lower end for it to be comfortable for the majority. This speed is what I was calling the "average". However, if you truly took an average speed over many freefly jumps of different types, you would probably see that number go up a good deal.

So- Here is my worthless opinion:

If you took 100 freefliers of all skill levels and needed and "average" speed to make the majority comfortable, I would say about 155.

If you took 100 freefliers who were all very skilled at flying head up and head down and averaged their speeds over a number of different style jumps, I would say you would get something more like 160-170.

And that's all I have to say about that.

May 13, 2004, 6:52 AM
Post #10 of 22 (664 views)
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 Re: [ccowden] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
So are you talking about "Skydiver air speed" or "Ture Air Speed?" (on the pro-track) They seem to always be about 10mph apart. This might be a factor in the speed differences. Also if you wear it in your jumpsuit, you'll get a more accurate reading.

however I do agree that somewhere between 155 & 165 is a good speed

sunnydee123  (D 27113)

May 13, 2004, 7:05 AM
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 Re: [koz2000] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
Sitting back and listening patiently and FINALLY ~ glad to hear that my head down speeds (and I'm still new at it), averaging around 167ish are not all that far off from what MIGHT be considered the norm ..................A little more and I'll be able to fly with the best of them

May 13, 2004, 7:16 AM
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 Re: [sunnydee123] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hey Denise, anyway you could find out what some of the averages were for the 42 way?? According to ccowden, that would be a good average, lots of peeps, world class, all on their head. If that doesn't present a pretty good "average" i don't know what will. I would be curious anyway.

Or, is it like a flat formation, the larger it is, the slower?? Hmmm, no i am really interested.

brits17  (D 24752)

May 13, 2004, 7:29 AM
Post #13 of 22 (646 views)
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I like the comments posted thus far. I have to agree it depends on what type of skydive is in the mix. Seeing the HD Texas record attempts, many of the guys were down to t-shirts and FF pants, the average was 165-170 on this particular day. I was thinking of a jump with flippy doo's and such integrated, so that slows the average rate down by roughly 10 mph I would assume. The ball I jumped falls 155. Perfectly comfortable for me, but I suppose I'm a wee one. However, the same one has been jumped by several other FF'ers with no complaints.

May 13, 2004, 8:33 AM
Post #14 of 22 (628 views)
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 Re: [Brains] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
Or, is it like a flat formation, the larger it is, the slower??

As formations become bigger they slow down5{y and the other large formations were packing the base with the big guys.

As more people are added to formations the slower the fall rate becomes.

To answer the original post, I reckon 150-160mph is a good speed for head up and head down work.

ccowden

May 13, 2004, 8:39 AM
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 Re: [koz2000] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
I guess I am talking about Skydivers Airspeed, but I am just taking educated guesses and really don't have much to back it up with except 'what I think'.

What I do KNOW is that when I read an average speed of near 180 on the Pro Track, it is uncomfortably fast. And when I read an average speed of down around 145, it starts to get uncomfortably slow. By uncomfortable I mean where I don't feel like I have all the range in movement that I would like because I am trying so hard to stay at that speed.

Screw this- Let's just go swoop!

May 13, 2004, 8:54 AM
Post #16 of 22 (621 views)
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Quote:
Screw this- Let's just go swoop!

Best idea yet.

sunnydee123  (D 27113)

May 13, 2004, 1:08 PM
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 Re: [Brains] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
How about I go home and raid the helmet to view the Pro-Trak that flew in the base of that 42-way ...I'll see what kinda speeds we are talking but I heard "chit chat" thanking people for keeping it fast

Will report back tomorrow.... <skurries off grinning and feeling somewhat important>

Trent

May 13, 2004, 1:17 PM
Post #18 of 22 (588 views)
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 Re: [sunnydee123] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
With my teammates, we typically fly in the 145-150 range... sit or head down. We fly the same speed pretty much all the time, unless we're going flat or purposely slowing down.

The bigways in Perris had a purposely FAST fallrate, for a couple of reasons. It's easier to fly only legs when you're cruising at 165 or so. It also almost eliminates the possibility of going low. Faster fallrates on bigways give us more airflow to work with which helps stability.

All these speeds are from my pro-track in TAS.

May 13, 2004, 2:26 PM
Post #19 of 22 (567 views)
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 Re: [Trent] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
145-150 range

Unless you let stevie set the fall rate...

J

Trent

May 13, 2004, 5:52 PM
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 Re: [jdhill] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
Yeah, he's a floaty beeeotch. Skinny bastard!

May 27, 2004, 4:45 PM
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 Re: [sunnydee123] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
Is it tomorrow yet ??

Enquiring minds would like to know.. hehe

Vertifly  (D 27236)

May 27, 2004, 5:04 PM
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 Re: [Cornholio] Average Freeflying Speeds. Determinative? [In reply to] Can't Post
Damn, you're really holding Sunnydee to her word. Way to keep at 'em.