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Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit

 

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Poll: Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit
I do back flips, but not front flips on exit. 11 / 8%
I do front flips, but not back flips on exit. 12 / 8%
I do either back flips or front flips on exit. 38 / 26%
I do flips, but only from certain types of aircraft. 25 / 17%
I don't do flips at all. 47 / 32%
Other (please explain). 12 / 8%
145 total votes
 
Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

May 7, 2004, 9:18 AM
Post #1 of 99 (4625 views)
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Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit Can't Post

Please - Tandem Instructors only.

**Please elaborate on your response.**


Ron

May 7, 2004, 9:33 AM
Post #2 of 99 (4559 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

I try to get stable and get the drouge out as fast as I can.

I want that drouge out there as soon as I can.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

May 7, 2004, 10:00 AM
Post #3 of 99 (4535 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

Depends on my mood for the day....Sly

-


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
May 7, 2004, 10:01 AM
Post #4 of 99 (4534 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

When I did tandems from Tailgates it was easiest to do a back 270 layout just as soon as your head was past the floor. Reach for the drogue at the 230-240 degree point in the rotation if you are rock solid and you could be tossing the drogue just as soon as you are belly to earth. Other wise I never did flips on purpose.


LawnDart21  (D License)

May 7, 2004, 11:46 AM
Post #5 of 99 (4457 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

Preface: I only have about 450 tandem jumps, I'm not an authority, this is just my opinion:

I am a firm believer in the benefit of doing unstable exits (front flips and back flips) on purpose from time to time, out of various aircraft. Lets face it, if you do tandems long enough, not all the skill in the world will keep you from going unstable on exit periodically. What flips do is put you (purposely) into an unstable position and allow you the opportinuty to practice getting stable in a relatively controlled environment. As a footnote to the importance of being able to get stable from an unstable exit is that I am also a firm believer in the "Dont use the drogue to get stable" theory. I hate seeing video of a TM going head down just after exit, due to the poor body posture of the student, and about to roll over, throw the drogue to get stable and regain control. At 10,000ft plus, you have time to allow a rollover to occur and get stable, and THEN deploy the drogue in clean air. Not trying to bust on you Phree, but if you are reaching back for the drogue as you complete a backflip in anticipation of throwing it belly to earth, you might need to consider rethinking your exit technique. You should be stable, then throw, not throw as you are getting stable. All of that is of course a moot point in the follow up to my first quote is of course "Your not supposed to go in either", so i think an unstable drogue toss is better than no drogue toss, but my observation is that some TMs stop flying thier bodies, and simply dump the drogue out the door to remove the need for flying well. Back to the flips, I do them from time to time, premeditated with someone that has already made a tandem, the gear manufacture agreed it was an acceptable practice for unstable recoveries, and yes, it is also quite fun.............

peace


kelpdiver  (B 7)

May 7, 2004, 11:49 AM
Post #6 of 99 (4453 views)
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Re: [bodypilot1] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Depends on my mood for the day....Sly
-

sorry to butt in, but does your (you and everyone else) also vary on the customer?

I liked the forward roll done when I tandem'd out of a cessna, and when I did the second one years later (King Air, I think), the TI went the other way for me and did a back flip, along with some hard spinning. I asked for a ride...


mfrese  (D 20145)

May 7, 2004, 12:19 PM
Post #7 of 99 (4436 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

I do flips, but only from certain aircraft.

I'm mainly jumping at a King Air DZ, and I've found that doing a backloop on exit probably results in a perfect presentation to the relative wind and a perpendicular drogue toss about 90-95% of the time. The other 5-10%, the student is generally just too damn big to get out the door, so I'll go for a straight exit, present, and throw the drogue.

I've never tried a front flip, because every one of them I've seen looks like a side-spin going out the door!


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

May 7, 2004, 12:27 PM
Post #8 of 99 (4426 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Depends on my mood for the day....Sly
-

sorry to butt in, but does your (you and everyone else) also vary on the customer?

I liked the forward roll done when I tandem'd out of a cessna, and when I did the second one years later (King Air, I think), the TI went the other way for me and did a back flip, along with some hard spinning. I asked for a ride...

Quote:
From the seated position in the 182 Cessna with your back to the instument panel, it easy to do a diving exit with a student. Depending on how the instructor has his arms when he leaves will usually result in a front flip that is fun. If he extends his arms out straight over his head he can avoid the flip if he wants too.
As for the King Air the door is small and the prop blast is strong, so a simple pop out the door facing the rear will get you a nice back loop.Wink
It takes some technique for every plane to get fun quality exits.
The students participation also helps too.

Be safe.

-


AggieDave  (D License)

May 7, 2004, 1:55 PM
Post #9 of 99 (4392 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

From my newbie TMing, 300-ish tandem jumps thus far.

I prefer to NOT do loops, except for tailgate aircraft, that 270 "flip" by walking off the tail is a nice way for me to exit.

Depending on the student, if they're not doing a "working" (Cat A or Cat B, ISP) jump, if they request it, I'll do a front flip. This is really easy to do out of a 182, for me, out of the Beech 99, its still easy, but I would much rather prefer doing a stable exit (or stable diving exit for certain video guys).

Whats odd, is the one really "bad" tandem I had (side spin) was on a stable exit, after reviewing the video my former course director came to the conclusion that I had exited pretty stable, but the student had his arms in legs in such a fasion to create the "perfect" body positon to dump us and side spin before I could get the drogue out.


sabr190  (D 22931)

May 7, 2004, 2:04 PM
Post #10 of 99 (4389 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

I do a nice front flip, followed by a barrel roll to a belly to earth position. Easiest way out of a 182, IMHO. Looks good on the video also. If my student is pretty small, I'll ask 'em if they want to do a couple of front flips out the door, this is good for two maybe three front flips. Cool


linestretch  (D 21060)

May 7, 2004, 3:42 PM
Post #11 of 99 (4341 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

depending on the plane, I've found doing a hard intentional back flip is almost flawless. The student isn't gonna know a damn thing, much less remember any of it. I just step out and around to my left, and thrust a back flip. It's scarry how friggin easy and stable it is even when the student has hideous(?) body position....but to each is own. What ever works for you.
Attachments: backflip.jpg (52.8 KB)


DALAILAMA  (D 20004)

May 7, 2004, 3:50 PM
Post #12 of 99 (4337 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

The single most important part of the of the tandem is the students safety and to ensure this a good exit with a good drogue throw is important. I hear far too often the phrase "exit, gain stability, and throw the drogue". Some Tandem instructors are loosing sight. It should be exit with stability and deploy the drogue. I believe flips are a part of the excitement for a passenger but only if the passenger is going for his or her second or more tandem.
1/10th of the time a passenger doesn't have a clue if they did a flip on exit anyway. I also believe that hanging on to the outside of the A/C back flips in which the instructors container is exposed to the relative wind for more than 2-3 seconds or longer should be outlawed, there is just too much of a chance that the drogue will come out prematurely, if you don't think so then believe it! It has happened.
Flips are fine, but remember, when you add another degree of difficulty to the tandem you are also asking for another problem to arise.
It is simple cause and effect. You had better be ready to accept the effect when you choose the cause. Just because your student watched the video and signed the waiver doesn't mean you can be "negligent or even grossly negligent"
Soap box complete....Sorry!


(This post was edited by DALAILAMA on May 7, 2004, 3:51 PM)


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

May 7, 2004, 4:35 PM
Post #13 of 99 (4314 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

A back flip out of the Skyvan is one of the easiest ways to get out of the plane and be stable inside of one second, so that's what I do.

Also, let's play out a couple of scenarios. The student's body position is pushing you over onto your side, you can either fight it or throw in an impromptu barell roll.

Let's say you fight it. But you started fighting it too late and it has just enough momentum to flip you over onto your back. Now your on your back and you have to find a way to fly it back over to your stomach. Not an unrecoverable position by any means, but definately one I prefer to stay out of.

Let's say you roll with it. Tuck yourself up and flip with them until you are 3/4 through the rotation, just as you start to feel that relative wind coming around again, and them BAM! Start flying again.

I have found it is easier to roll with it than to fight it, but it depends on how soon you catch it. Also, how long you have been in droguless freefall should be a factor in your mind.

Also, as far as haning outside the plane and exposing the rig to the wind in any way goes, this is expressly forbiden at our dz.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

May 7, 2004, 4:38 PM
Post #14 of 99 (4312 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

My personal preference . . . I do 270 backloops from ramp aircraft that I can exit comfortably that way. I find the Skyvan to be the easiest. I always get the student's permission first. I have never attempted a backloop from a side-door aircraft. It may be worth a go with another Tandem Instructor on the front to see if I can execute it cleanly.

I choose not to do front loops because I find them hard to recover cleanly. They also seem to carry more speed than a backloop, which would aggravate a side-spin if it were to happen. I will never put my back to the door for an extended period of time. That's just asking for it, IMHO.

I watched a bunch of tandem videos today where the Tandem Instructors did flips of one sort or another. The video took a while to catch them - another disadvantage IMHO.


3ringheathen  (D 18302)

May 7, 2004, 10:01 PM
Post #15 of 99 (4228 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

I only did tandems for one summer, but I've been doing tandem vids for years. I've seen a lot of flips, intentional and otherwise.

Do a flip or two on exit, assuming that the instructor and student are both comfortable with the idea, of course.

In my brief stint as a TM, I found that a significant portion of 1st jumpers brain lock for the first few seconds after exit. It's instinctive to go fetal, and as often as not, that's what they'll do.
The instructor can often help them into an arch, or exit stable without the students help, but not always.

I think planning flips on exit can help enhance the experience and *maybe* even be safer than attempting a stable exit.
1) Balling up is natural, so the student is much more likely to actually perform as instructed.
2) The student doesn't feel like they failed if they don't exit in a perfect arch.
3) The sensory overload usually subsides shortly after exit. If the student is expecting to flip, and then arch when the instructor does, they are usually with it enough to do so.
4) When a student is particularly nervous, screwing up the exit aggravates it. A truly panicked student is the hardest to deal with. If they expected to flip, which is easy, they are less likely to panic.

As for the suggestion that premature drogue release is a concern, I agree, but a properly stowed drogue should be just fine in the airstream. Thorough gear checks and maintenance are a better solution to that problem than avoiding flips on exit!

My .02
-Josh


(This post was edited by 3ringheathen on May 7, 2004, 10:05 PM)


nightjumps  (No License)

May 8, 2004, 5:43 AM
Post #16 of 99 (4199 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

I chose other. It is not my intention to do flips of any kind on exit. However, if I find myself trying to "fight" a stable into the wind presentation due to the student's body position and flipping would get me into the relative wind sooner, I will accelerate the flip or barrel roll.

For example, I had a student on a Casa. We backed up to the door for presentation into the wind. Somewhere between "Set" and "Go," she bent her knees and on "Go" shoved me so hard that we exited butt to earth. It was easier to flow with it; tuck and flip.


(This post was edited by nightjumps on May 8, 2004, 5:43 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 8, 2004, 7:18 AM
Post #17 of 99 (4186 views)
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Re: [nightjumps] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

With the exception of Tandem progression level 3 - I consider loops on exit to be unprofessional.

As for intentional loops out of Skyvans ... I don't get it ?????
Back in 1987 I did a bunch of tandems out of the Pink Skyvan. Initially I just dove out with my arms extended over my head and feet up my butt. Most of those exits flattened out pretty quickly.
Then I tried grabbing the light on the right side of the ramp and doing a poised exit, even more stable.

Because students are usually in sensory overload for the first few seconds, they don't know or care how stable your exit was. I try to do stable exits because that is the exit I prefer. I figure that stable exits ALMOST eliminate the whole side spin issue. My single side spin was enough thank you!
If instructors are doing intentional loops out the door - to amuse themselves - they are in the wrong business.

Sorry if I threw a wet blanket on your fun.

Call me old and boring, but this attitude has kept me alive through 2700 tandems.


nightjumps  (No License)

May 8, 2004, 7:27 AM
Post #18 of 99 (4183 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

No wet blanket on me. I am in total agreement with everything you said. The tandem is about them... not us, not the video guy, them.

Stable, safe exits.


kjarv  (C License)

May 8, 2004, 8:00 AM
Post #19 of 99 (4178 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm curious-
First of all, I'm not a TM--- but I was at a DZ where I regularly saw Tandem's -freeflying-- headdown for a good portion of the skydive. I bought a friend of mine a Tandem at this DZ and they took her Headdown as well. It looked cool and fun, and the guys at this DZ had a TON of experience.

I am curious though, what's the Tandem communitie's thoughts on doing this? After reading this thread about unstable exits, it would seem that this sort of practice would be frowned upon, if not downright dangerous.

Thoughts?

<I'm not going to mention the DZ, I don't want to get anyone in trouble---esp. if I don't know what I'm talking about>

thanks!

-kjarv


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 8, 2004, 8:49 AM
Post #20 of 99 (4169 views)
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Re: [kjarv] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

When instructors first started experimenting with head down tandems in the late 1990s, Relative Workshop and Strong Enterprises threw a wet blanket all over that practice.
Manufacturers officially frown on head down tandems.
Manufacturers were afraid that deploying while falling faster than normal would tear canopies and injure jumpers.


Ron

May 8, 2004, 9:40 AM
Post #21 of 99 (4164 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree flips just add to the danger, add to the wear on the gear, bad for the video and most students have no clue you did one.


crutch  (D 10182)

May 8, 2004, 6:27 PM
Post #22 of 99 (4112 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

I am having a good time reading all the responses to this poll. I am speaking with some experience here (3000+ tandems using various systems). To be honest for awhile I was very for doing stable (no flip exits) due to three side-spins I was involved in, in as many months. The thing is, as Dave said, I was VERY stable just before the student did something with their arms to create the side-spin.

That being said, this is what I do now. I do a flip of one kind or another (sometimes they aren't very pretty) on just about every exit. I usually have my hands holding the students to their chest as we exit, to protect them from grabbing anything. I NEVER back out of an airplane other than tailgates (ask Mike Mullins what happens to the tail of a King Air). Foeremost though I tailor the skydive to the students. I tell them we are going to flip, if they don't want to, we simply don't. On tailgates, I always ask do they want to see where they are going or where they have been, let them pick, they are paying the big bucks!

Anyhow, my two cents!

One more thing, as for heads down, I have been known to do it for returning students (not tandem progression dives though). They are great fun!


stateofnature  (D 20000)

May 8, 2004, 8:45 PM
Post #23 of 99 (4101 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

No flips, unless it's a necessity, i.e. tailgate, or small cessna...i feel that out of these aircraft, trying to force a position against the relative wind, or making the student do something that is unneccessary is foolish.

There have been a few incidents of the drogue wrapping around tevas and causing a fatality. Regardless if it was flip induced or not.

AGREED, that it is totally unnecessary, and for all those new TM's out there. If you student asks about doing a flip, just tell them: "You know, anyone can mindlessly flip uncontrollabily out the door, what we are going to do is a really smooth controled dive and recovery. From a third point of view this looks so nice and smooth, and that is where the skill takes place, but I can't make it look good unless you help me with that arch."


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 9, 2004, 7:56 AM
Post #24 of 99 (4033 views)
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Re: [stateofnature] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

Hee! Hee!
When students ask me to loop them out the door, I reply: "Sometimes we flip, sometimes we don't. Keep your eyes open and tell me how many times we flip."
Most of the time I exit stable and turn to watch the airplane fly away.
They are so overwhelmed for the first few seconds that most of them cannot tell the difference between a flip and a - belly to wind - turn to inspect the underside of the airplane.
None of the first-timers have complained about not enough flips.
So we both get what we want. They get the perception of front loops out the door and I get a stable exit (most of the time).

On another topic, I have never met an airplane that REQUIRED a looping exit.

riggerrob
2,700 tandem jumps later


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

May 10, 2004, 7:55 AM
Post #25 of 99 (3905 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: (Intentional) Flips On Exit [In reply to] Can't Post

I will do front flips, diving out toward the rear if the customer asks for it, but I don't volunteer the information up front. I have them sit on their heels like a catcher and stay that way for a count of three after the exit, then have them arch hard. On exit, I push over them and "crunch" down around them for three seconds, then I pull back on their shoulders as I arch out of it. I normally get two rotations out of it before I stable out and deploy the drogue. The faster speed you build up gives you more power with your control surfaces. It's that control potential which make me, as a smaller TM, comfortable doing that maneuver. I would guess that only 15 percent of my 500 tandem passengers have asked to do flips.

Chuck


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