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[Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps..

 

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jmfreefly  (D License)

May 1, 2004, 6:01 AM
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[Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. Can't Post

 
I have seen lots of posts, and talked to numerous newer jumpers at our DZ on this subject, and it got me thinking about the reasons behind this.

I have been trying to track down why it seems, all of a sudden, every new jumper off AFF wants to try to freefly right away. I have come up with a few things (at least at our dropzone) that seems to exacerbate this. Maybe others can provide input on their experiences, both new and old..

-----------

1) A shift in our DZ from RW to Freefly in general.
When I came through the AFF program, there was only 2 or 3 jumpers with any freefly experience. In general, when folks got off AFF, the RWers would take each under their wing, and start integrating them into their dives.

Now, the most experienced jumpers (the ones who used to do RW exclusively) are exploring freeflying. This leaves a big hole for people to organize dives with newer jumpers.

2) Belly solos become boring.
When the organizers for RW are off trying freeflying, the newer jumpers end up doing many solos on their belly. I think in general, newer jumpers think this is stagnation and that they aren't learning anything. ( i.e. its boring. )

So, when the newer jumper can't find people to do RW with, and don't want to do a belly solo, they often think 'Hey, what about a sitfly solo. I have seen some video, overheard some conversation, let me go ahead and try that! I see all the people who are first learning freeflying doing solos..'

I have often found myself at the plane, trying to get people on board in the right order and ask a newer jumper "Solo.. belly?" and I get a reply "No, solo sitfly". A second concern in these cases is that newer jumpers often have 'second hand' gear that is sometimes showing its age. I have stopped some of the newer jumpers that have 'less than freefly friendly gear' from getting on the plane to do a freefly solo.

3) The lure of video.
Because it seems that the majority of freefliers also jump camera, there is much more talk and discussion at our dropzone / video debrief of freeflying jumps. When the newer jumpers wander around, they can almost always find people looking at freefly video. Because most of the camera fliers are either doing tandem video, or freeflying, there is very little RW video shot anymore. Usually the only RW video that is shot is when a new camera jumper is first learning on small RW jumps. Usually the video is mediocre at best.

So, all the video the new jumper sees is freefly video, or tandem/AFF video.


4) The DZ's 'usual suspects' are freefliers
When I say 'usual suspects', I am talking about the jumpers that it turns out most newer jumpers respect/look up to/ask for advice. The newer jumper sees these people freeflying, and often they see that as the path they want their jump 'career' to follow.

5) A perceived lack of 'Walk the Walk'
When I talk to newer jumpers, I often get a sense of 'If RW is so important, how come I don't see you in an RW suit much?'. A lot of that is perception or mis-interpretation. My recommendations for RW early on mostly stem around safety and effective/efficient learning. Once you get a bunch of jumps under your belt, you can progress on (if you choose) to learning freeflying.

In the vein of continual learning, many experienced jumpers move on to learn new things (such as freeflying, or wingsuit flying, or camera, or whatever). That doesn't mean that it is exclusive, but when people are trying to master a new skill, they 'practice, practice, practice'. Often the newer jumper only sees this practice of freeflying, and not the 'love for RW'.


6) Poor integration of newer jumpers in to the DZ 'family'.
Our DZ is a very close knit community, where everyone really does know everyone. There are very few people that don't know everyone else. In that, newer jumpers can often be intimidated getting off student status and talking to the people that they look up to. I had the same 'fears' when I graduated. When newer jumpers keep to themselves, I usually try to actively engage them.

If a newer jumper doesn't feel like they can approach the experienced jumpers, they often don't ask things like 'When is a good time to start freeflying' or 'Is this gear safe for freeflying' or 'I think I am ready to freefly with other jumpers, can you give me some coaching or advice'.

Usually it is finding a newer jumper at the plane doing a freefly jump that prompts me to say 'Hey, when you get back down, tell me how it went' that starts the dialogue. Usually I can take that opportunity to give advice (when asked for /warranted).

Any thoughts? Experiences?

I see similar drives sometimes with newer jumpers wanting to fly a wingsuit early. At least the generally accepted course of instruction recommends at least 200 jumps in the last year. This usually is an easy litmus test that newer jumpers fail. Freeflying really doesn't have a general course of instruction that people can point to.

j


WrongWay  (D 27371)

May 1, 2004, 6:30 AM
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Re: [jmfreefly] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think another reason (which goes hand in hand with #4) is that freefly is the "cool" thing to do. Most of the young "hot flyers" in the sport are freeflyers. The Nelsons, 99% of the guys on the PST, etc...

Most people in my experience (like at my home dz) that are really experienced/skilled in RW are in a previous generation, generally in their 40's/50's/60's. The younger/newer jumpers can't relate to this generation. They want to be part of the young, spirited, baggy jeans, tattoos, spikey hair, piercings, "look at me im so cool cuz im into extreme sports" crowd, which is the newbies view of the freeflyers.

The younger guys are who they can relate to, so they flock to freeflyers immediately. Why? Because it's cool to the younger generation.

Good post by the way, you had a lot of good points.


RoadRash  (A 43830)

May 1, 2004, 7:21 AM
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Re: [jmfreefly] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, here is my experience...I have less than 100 jumps and most of those jumps are FF, and here is why...

At my former DZ, which has since closed BTW, I was told that I would be only working on RW. I was fine with that, but then I went down to Lake Wales, saw some cool stuff, still thougnt that FF was waaaaay far off and worked on my AFF. Got done with AFF, did some solos, a coach jump, then went to the hospital with a broken ankle. Returned to Indiana, recovered for 6 months, waited an additional two more before getting back to jumping.

So, all I really needed was some coach jumps and I would be licensed, on my 18th or 19th jump, a really cool FFer/swooper/coach asked me if I wanted to try a FF jump. Assuming previously that I would have to make 100 belly jumps before even thinking about FF, I of course jumped at the chance (pardon the punSly). I had a blast...and I decided that I wanted to continue to get coaching so that I could get better at freeflying. Because of the group I was with in Florida, I was given the chance to freefly in the tunnel and worked on backflying/sitting/ and other random maneuvers.Cool

BUT, and this is a big BUT, I went through a lot of coaching, and solos where I would work on tracking, heading control, standing, etc, etc, etc. I wanted to make sure that I could stay with a group and get away from the group when it came to break off.

I still want to work on my belly skills, but I love freeflying. To tell you the truth, waiting for a hundred jumps for the experiences that I have had with less than 100, I feel like I would be missing out...Pirate

But that is just me...and though there is a lot to be said for belly skills, I just want to freefly right now...

~R+RAngelic

"I was told that because I was named after a bird that one day I would learn how to fly, and so I did..."Smile


freeflygoddess  (B 26155)

May 1, 2004, 9:16 AM
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Re: [jmfreefly] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Well at Coolidge during the Mullins days, there wasn't any belly fliers, and then when he left and I switched going to Eloy, it seemed to me, that the belly flyers there were complete sky gods and wouldn't jump with newbies and when I started getting coaching from Jeffro, it just sort of happend that I went to freeflying right away. plus the freefliers at Eloy seem to be alot more friendly and not so into just their group and like you said solo ay dives are boring. Besides flying on your belly is long and it hurts your back and it is unnatural and boring and les to do, sure when you are doing 25 point 8 ways, I am sure it is hard, but it seems silly to me, and you are just asking for someone to pull you at altitude! I have however flown on my bely since starting freeflying, mostly to learn how to dock onto hybrid jumps, but also to get a bit more perspective, but I do not want to do RW. I learned freeflying rather safely getting lots of coaching and did al ot of tracking dives on my back. I eventually want to get into freestyle. However, now that I am not able to jump until after November 15th, I am sure that when I go back they will make me do a few belly jumps...ugh the agony, I can feel my back hurting already.


(This post was edited by freeflygoddess on May 1, 2004, 9:22 AM)


VectorBoy  (F 321)

May 1, 2004, 10:02 AM
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Re: [jmfreefly] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

 I did a handfull of belly jumps in the early eighties in a military club. For many reasons I stopped jumping when I got out of the service.I always thought I'd be back eventually. Fast forward 16 years and seeing what the freeflyers were doing really drew me back to the sport. Its were my heart is.


Zoter

May 1, 2004, 12:49 PM
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Re: [WrongWay] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm...for what its worth I'll give you my input.
Frankly I was bored doing RW and didnt find it interesting...
Now hold on Flamers...
Im sure the reason I didnt find it massively stimulating was that I'm not terribly good at it....I did what I had to do to prove a level of safety and ability.....but I didnt like the fact that I was getting angry with myself under canopy because I missed this point or that block....bottom line...was not enjoying myself.
Its got nothing to do with 'looking cool' nothing to do with being 'extreme' ( like just throwing yourself out of an airplane isnt extreme enough?? no matter how u fly)....simply I thought I would enjoy FF more....and guess what...I do
I fully intend to 'go back ' and spend alot of time getting my RW skills dialled....but not right now as Im having too much fun in FF !
When I jump out its my sky as much as anyone else's and I'll do what I enjoy

The other 'grunt' I have is over this....yeah newbies just jumping out to Freefly and just disregarding safety yadaa yadda yadda.
I never had had that attitude and have extensive coaching to begin with and have a big safety concious attitude......and frankly in the UK....I have not seen 'newbies' just jumping out on freeflies willie nillie, we are just not allowed to do that...us newbies get frequent nut roastings for all our errors here in the UK...and thank god for that !!


colintri  (A 43658)

May 1, 2004, 2:10 PM
Post #7 of 66 (3909 views)
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Re: [jmfreefly] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I'd like to add one more reason why newer people are going straight to FF.

It's easier to 'goof around' in FF than RW. The atmosphere in FF is more laid back than RW. Two way sitfly is more fun and entertaining than a four-way RW. Newer people may be afraid of being under pressure in order to peform the points correctly. They came to the DZ to have fun, not to worry about performing the points correctly. It may sound like a lame excuse, but it is a real excuse for some of newer jumpers. However, most of newer jumpers don't realize FF can be dangerous, i.e., corking and high speed collisions. Crazy

Not to mislead you readers, I strongly advocate doing RW for 100 jumps or more before moving on to FF. An example is you can't build a house without enacting a foundation. Your belly skills first must be solid.


bertusgeert  (A License)

May 1, 2004, 6:25 PM
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Re: [jmfreefly] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally I am very attracted to Freeflying, and have done five "FF" jumps.

I really feel a lot of negativity towards people wanting to FF, I dont quite understand why... (besides safety).

I can relate to most of the reasons posted. Personally, I was taught to pack, AFF Instructed and overall mentored by two wickedly good freefliers...They had a crapload of video for me to watch, and I ate it up. I want to learn as quickly as possible so that I can jump with them.

What about just plain and simple, that is where skydiving is evolving to? Another dimension?

Entering skydiving, i had the ideas in my head of RW, Acc, CReW, Skysurfing and wingsuits, mostly what I had seen on TV. How many new jumpers are there that say: MAn, I would love to be a Accuracy jumper, or a CReWdawg? As I see it, those disciplines are dying off under newer younger jumpers. Freeflying is attractive because its extremely challenging to even just get there, its fast, and it looks SWEET, VERY SWEET!

and THAT... is why I wanna freefly!


Newbie  (C License)

May 2, 2004, 9:42 AM
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Re: [jmfreefly] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I actuall didn't start ff'ing until 100 jumps. I waited until i had 100 flat jumps (and i know 100 isn't many, but by that time i could turn over a dozen points on a 4 way with some experienced jumpers, could track safely away from formation, knew the in's and out's of staying off jump run, adequate separation, and how the wind affected my body and fall rate etc). Some jumpers can do this and be aware wayyyy quicker than 100 jumps, but that's about what it took me. At 20 jumps i do not think you have enough air awareness and feel of the relative wind, and seen enough of what goes on to be moving a step ahead.

While i wanted to go straight into ff, all you have to do is speak to most of the leading ff'ers to get their opinion on this, which is generally that it's better for someone to get some flat experience first, as well as the experience of what jumping safely involves, regardless of discipline. I don't have many more jumps over 100 now, but as a result of the flat work i did before hand, i can now fly head up comfortably after only a handful of ff jumps, my overall presence of mind is calm and collected because i am aware in the air of things like heading and staying off jump run, adequate separation, back/front sliding and what it feels like, and the ability to track fast should i need to get the hell away from something i don't want to be near to. This is a direct result of the slow and steady work i did on those first 100 jumps.

I understand why people want to run before they can walk. No one wants to be seen as the dz novice. I think we as jumpers don't just owe it only to ourselves to work at a slow, steady and safe pace, but to all those others who we are on the plane with too, so that we don't endanger anyone else.


JJohnson  (D 22675)

May 2, 2004, 9:48 AM
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Re: [freeflygoddess] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it is for two reasons:

1) FF is awesome to watch. From the first time I watched Antigravity I have wanted to fly like that. It is visually more captivating than RW and looks more fun....more free.

2) RW at many DZ's can be very clickish. The skygod mentality ruins the feeling of the sport. Screw up a jump and get banned? Like anyone is born with 2000 jumps? No thanks. I despise that attitude and will never turn away a low time jumper unless it is a saftey issue.
I had pretty much wriiten RW off until I finally met some RW load organizers that made it fun, not a competition on every jump. I enjoy both RW and FF, but I don't suffer attitudes, have no tolerance for them.


jmfreefly  (D License)

May 2, 2004, 4:25 PM
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Re: [JJohnson] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Thanks for everyone's input. I like to hear about other folks' experiences. I think the responses I have heard basically hit every point I made. (Plus one or two more).

Keep them coming!

My goal in trying to understand the reasons behind the motivation is to better talk with newer jumpers to help them stay safe and healthy. The biggest fear that I have is that newer jumpers sometimes don't have a full understanding about what they are getting into. I have seen numerous skydivers that got into freeflying early, and after 200 jumps still can't track properly and sometimes still can't pull very stable.

That doesn't mean that individuals can't take a variety of paths to get to a destination, as long as they learn the right things at the right times. Learning them on ones belly is often the safesty way, but not the only way.

When I went to the Equinox boogie two years ago, there were some great freefliers down in Australia. The coolest thing was, all of the jumpers 'battled' to get on the sunset bigways which were always RW.

j


JJohnson  (D 22675)

May 2, 2004, 7:34 PM
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Re: [jmfreefly] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

The most beautiful susnset load I ever did was a two way sit. It was like relaxing in your most comfortable chair and watching the sun go down as you got closer to the ground. Caught the sun's reflection in a small lake as well...awe inspiring.


78RATS  (D 25449)

May 3, 2004, 8:43 AM
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Re: [jmfreefly] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

For me it was simply a matter of choice between flying a fairly static body position or flying a number of dynamic positions.

Basically "arching" and "hugging the ball" just didn't do it for me.Angelic


stuffit  (C 2)

May 3, 2004, 10:31 AM
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Re: [78RATS] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

For me it is basically that you can do so many things with freeflying that you can never do with RW. I did about ten RW jumps after AFF before I went into freeflying. I just wasnt very much fun when you get dirty looks at the end of a three way because you werent in the right position. I had shitloads more fun doing two way sitflying and laughing the whole way down. I go to the dropzone to have fun and get away from the hustle-bustle bullshit of the work week. I dont go there to get a bunch of flack from some dick who didnt like my body position.

Plus, sausage suits are stupid looking.Smile


LoudDan  (D 27481)

May 3, 2004, 10:47 AM
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Re: [stuffit] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally, I'm a freeflier (started very early like jump 20 or something like that) however what a lot of people fail to realize is that flying on your belly is flying on an axis. Throwing together a four way belly with simple docks, and just going for as many points as you can is a killer rush when just like any good skydive. So perhaps it's from lack of people willing to just throw a simple dive plan together.

I know for me it was the more relaxed attitude of the our pro freeflyers, along witht he fact that when I had 17 jumps, it was one of those 8,000 jump freeflyers that came over and asked me if I wanted to go play in the sky, that was the beginning of the end for me.
That being said, it is hard to beat a four way head down with bad ass transitions because that's just cool.


jmfreefly  (D License)

May 3, 2004, 11:16 AM
Post #16 of 66 (3698 views)
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Re: [LoudDan] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Personally, I'm a freeflier (started very early like jump 20 or something like that) however what a lot of people fail to realize is that flying on your belly is flying on an axis. Throwing together a four way belly with simple docks, and just going for as many points as you can is a killer rush when just like any good skydive. So perhaps it's from lack of people willing to just throw a simple dive plan together.

Well put.

Your mention of a dive plan sparked a point (in this whole RW before FF 'debate') that irks me about newer FF jumpers (and older ones too) -- so many times I don't see FF groups talking about dive plans. I asked several times about why not, and I get "Hey, man, that is just too restrictive...". I just have to shake my head.

To not discuss who is base, break off alti, break off plans, what should happen if you are long, what should happen if you lose sight of the other jumpers in 'industrial haze', etc. is just asking for trouble. Discussing these things doesn't mean that a dive plan can't be dynamic.

In reply to:
I know for me it was the more relaxed attitude of the our pro freeflyers, along witht he fact that when I had 17 jumps, it was one of those 8,000 jump freeflyers that came over and asked me if I wanted to go play in the sky, that was the beginning of the end for me.
That being said, it is hard to beat a four way head down with bad ass transitions because that's just cool.


I think the 'acceptance' and 'mentoring' factors have really shown their lacking in some of the comments that people have given. Our dz is very close knit, but I can see that some dzs may struggle with people getting excluded and 'yelled at' if they don't live up to expectations on a jump.

At our DZ we do 3-4 events a year that are meant to specifically include newer jumpers:
1) Mentoring weekends 1-on-1 or 2-on-2
2) 'A-license and above' RW Scrambles.

I think that events like that are great ways to help eliminate this 'fear of screwing up and having someone grumble at me'.

j


MuffDiver  (B 5296)

May 3, 2004, 12:03 PM
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Re: [jmfreefly] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I now have just over 100 jumps (mostly belly). I find it difficult to put a load together or get on a load with many other belly fliers. I have pretty much decided that since I spend alot of time on my own, I may as well start trying something new. I am waiting for my new gear to arrive and when it does, i think that i will probably transition into freeflying.


skipro101  (A License)

May 9, 2004, 9:59 PM
Post #18 of 66 (3545 views)
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Re: [WrongWay] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think another reason (which goes hand in hand with #4) is that freefly is the "cool" thing to do. Most of the young "hot flyers" in the sport are freeflyers. The Nelsons, 99% of the guys on the PST, etc...

Most people in my experience (like at my home dz) that are really experienced/skilled in RW are in a previous generation, generally in their 40's/50's/60's. The younger/newer jumpers can't relate to this generation. They want to be part of the young, spirited, baggy jeans, tattoos, spikey hair, piercings, "look at me im so cool cuz im into extreme sports" crowd, which is the newbies view of the freeflyers.

The younger guys are who they can relate to, so they flock to freeflyers immediately. Why? Because it's cool to the younger generation.


lol thats hillarious. Why dont you just ask them instead of guessing about what you think you know. Your making general statements about a crowd....its not surprising that you dont describe me at all. (one of your younger/newer jumpers)

I started sitflying on jump 30. Now, with around 70 jumps, I am flying with other people and docking sit. I am stable, can prevent corking, hold a heading, 360l, 360r, fall rate control, etc.
Im safe in a 2 way. And no, I dont have 100-200 RW jumps.

Furthermore, I am not some kid who "wants to be part of the young, spirited, baggy jeans, tattoos, spikey hair, piercings, "look at me im so cool cuz im into extreme sports" crowd,"

Actually, I started freeflying because I felt like it. The same reason I started skydivig. BECAUSE ITS FUN. RW is not as fun as freeflying to me. So THATS why i started it.

Its my money. I sought out coaching and am safe..so who are you to tell me how to spend my jump ticket $?

Instead of making generalities about a generation of young/newer jumpers, why dont you stick to what you know...structure, rules, slots, and all that other boring crap.

And yes, I know RW is a good skill to have...its the basics of skydiving.

However, like i said before, Its my money. I dont give a crap if im not going to be allowed to geek a tandem. I'm safe. Ill do as I please.Tongue


Edited to add.. Just to clarify. I have every intention of working on RW eventually...but only as a compliment to my FF...with the intention of making my FF better.


Edit#2-- and oh yea, I am not being sassy, yelling, personal attacking, or anything of the sort. I cant really express my entire point/posisiton without writing more than I wish too, so there is a lot that I left out. I see your point and all, but simply do not agree. Perhaps when I have 1k jumps+ ill feel as you do....regardless of that ephiney, I just dont feel that way right now andwill continue my FF progression.


(This post was edited by skipro101 on May 9, 2004, 10:06 PM)


skipro101  (A License)

May 9, 2004, 10:08 PM
Post #19 of 66 (3542 views)
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Re: [skipro101] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

additional food for though, Aerohio's AFF progression..level 17 and 18 are sitfly jumps. And the st&A/owner is on the USPA board.

Obviously some people with experience share a view that more parralles mine than the (100RW jumps before FF)


jmfreefly  (D License)

May 10, 2004, 9:21 AM
Post #20 of 66 (3507 views)
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Re: [skipro101] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
lol thats hillarious. Why dont you just ask them instead of guessing about what you think you know. Your making general statements about a crowd....its not surprising that you dont describe me at all. (one of your younger/newer jumpers)

I'll refer you to the second paragraph of my original email:

Quote:
Quote:
I have been trying to track down why it seems, all of a sudden, every new jumper off AFF wants to try to freefly right away. I have come up with a few things (at least at our dropzone) that seems to exacerbate this. Maybe others can provide input on their experiences, both new and old..

I -am- asking people for their experiences/reasons, both NEW (that would be you) and old.

.Actually, I started freeflying because I felt like it. The same reason I started skydivig. BECAUSE ITS FUN. RW is not as fun as freeflying to me. So THATS why i started it.
Ok, so you don't find RW as fun. Can you elaborate as to why? Is it because your DZ has 'clicks' that exclude you? And the only other RW folks that will jump with you are other newer jumpers that don't fly so well? Or maybe you are having trouble with a skill? Or maybe you don't like the structure of RW jumps?

These are the questions that I ask the newer jumpers that seem frustrated with jumping right off of AFF. Often there are answers that yield new paths for the jumpers progression.



In reply to:
Its my money. I sought out coaching and am safe..so who are you to tell me how to spend my jump ticket $?


Where in my thread to I tell you how to spend your jump ticket money? I will say, though, that if people decide that they want to jump without a rig, someone will certainly tell you that you can't spend your jump money that way. The point is, that there are limits to 'freedom to do what you want' in this sport. [of course, my example is extreme hyperbole]

But, maybe I should expand on -why- I have been trying to find the root causes. My goal is to actually -help- newer jumpers a) stay safe and b) have fun.

From what I have seen/talked about, more than a few people start freeflying because they feel left out, or never get the chance to do the fun RW. In cases like that, I want those jumpers to feel welcomed and integrated.

If, on the other hand, they have learned skills to keep them safe (like how to track, fall rate, gotten their internal 'altimeter' tuned, etc.), but just don't want to do RW, then 'ALRIGHT, lets get you learning freeflying and working with a good teacher!'.

The point is do do it safely, to have fun, and to ultimately learn. If people are unhappy, then they probably aren't learning (and certainly not having fun).


In reply to:
I see your point and all, but simply do not agree. Perhaps when I have 1k jumps+ ill feel as you do....regardless of that ephiney, I just dont feel that way right now andwill continue my FF progression.

What point are you not agreeing with? This wasn't a thread about 'RW must happen before FF', it was what factors at the dropzone may be causing/promoting newer jumpers to freefly.


j


Brains  (D License)

May 10, 2004, 10:40 AM
Post #21 of 66 (3488 views)
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Re: [jmfreefly] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought about this thread this weekend when i was jumping on some incredible (for me) ff dives with my mentors.

I started out doing RW, formation skydiving wasn't the PC thing to say at the time. I enjoyed it, some people took me in and started working with me in two's and three's. Next thing i knew, i was filling in for them when a teammate on their 4 way team was missing or something. I remember seeing the freefliers, always laughing, joking, watching video, and hanging out together. They were the "cool" people on the dz. They didn't talk to me, and i didn't dare approach them. Then one day some of the instructors and others were putting together my SCR dive and one of the freefliers put on an RW suit and joined in.(even though he denies owning a belly suit, i still have a pic of it.Wink) I didn't even know he could fly on his belly. I was told that he had been invited on many a big way in the past. I was astounded. I thought because of that that i needed to really work on my belly skills so that i could freefly someday. I ended up jumping on a 4 way team for a year. It was fun but too stressful. Not what skydiving was supposed to be for me. Then that freeflier, IMGR2, asked me if i wanted to freefly with him. That was one of the coolest jumps i have ever done. Watching someone transition right in front of you for the first time is amazing. I still do some rw here and there. I do a little coaching for newbies, no charge, on my belly. Mainly to show them that you don't need to be one dimensional, learn to do it all, but also to keep some of those skills sharp. I love to freefly, but i understand the importance of developing a base of knowledge first.Smile Now it is just a huge bonus to get to jump with those people who i looked up to when i first started skydiving. Just in case they are reading this now, Paul,Kimmy,Bryan,Robert,Shannon,Jason,Heath, THANK YOUSmile


WrongWay  (D 27371)

May 10, 2004, 10:41 AM
Post #22 of 66 (3482 views)
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Re: [skipro101] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Now I'm not from Aerohio, so take this with a grain of salt as I'm only assuming this is the reason for this, and we all know what happens when you assume things (make an ass out of you and me), so if someone experienced from there could support/deny my theory on this, it would be much appreciated.

I'm guessing that they have sitfly in their student progression for two reasons.

1. You won't get it your first time, so it teaches you how to recover from corking and to recover from instability in general.

2. Because freefly has become the "cool" thing for newbies to do, and if they're going to be doing it right off student status anyway, why not make it part of the progression and make them go out with an instructor as opposed to a 100 jump chump? Sounds like a good safety precaution to me.

Just because it's in the student progression doesn't mean it's the best idea to start right off student status. However it also doesn't mean that you're definitely going to die if you do. It's all about how you learn what you're doing. Don't forget that belly flying is a part of freefly, and you can't truly freefly without it.

Also, being on the USPA board doesn't make anyone special. That's like saying every employee at PD is a pro level swooper. Nowadays USPA is not much more than a company that hands out pieces of paper with license numbers and puts out a cool magazine. Personally, I'm more impressed by any tandem instructor known for being friendly or a jumper who changes canopies without downsizing than by anybody who bases their reputation on being on the board of USPA. I'm not slamming your DZO, just speaking generally.

And dude, not dissing you or anything, but this whole attitude of "It's my money, I can spend it on whatever dive I want" will hurt you if you don't cut it out, or at the very least will make people see you as a spoiled rich kid (whether you are or not). Just cuz you have the money to buy a camera doesn't mean you should strap one to your head. Just because you have money to buy a little bitty canopy doesn't mean you should jump one. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but I'm saying that money should not come into play with your attitude towards the sport. Well, that is unless you're broke and can't jump for a weekend. (Cool) If you want to spend your money on freefly right off student status, fine, I don't blame ya for wanting to, I did the same thing. But spend the extra and get coaching so you'll be competent without those belly skills, or get some tunnel time to learn them. Money buys jumps, but it doesn't buy safety or experience.

Edited cuz I quoted one part of the post then replied to all of it. DER!!! Tongue


(This post was edited by WrongWay on May 10, 2004, 10:47 AM)


skipro101  (A License)

May 10, 2004, 12:50 PM
Post #23 of 66 (3453 views)
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Re: [jmfreefly] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

jmfreefly

i was responding to wrongways post. Look at the top of my reply...you can see "Re:wrongway"


Tongue


skipro101  (A License)

May 10, 2004, 12:57 PM
Post #24 of 66 (3451 views)
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Re: [WrongWay] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And dude, not dissing you or anything, but this whole attitude of "It's my money, I can spend it on whatever dive I want" will hurt you if you don't cut it out, or at the very least will make people see you as a spoiled rich kid (whether you are or not). Just cuz you have the money to buy a camera doesn't mean you should strap one to your head. Just because you have money to buy a little bitty canopy doesn't mean you should jump one. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but I'm saying that money should not come into play with your attitude towards the sport. Well, that is unless you're broke and can't jump for a weekend. (Cool) If you want to spend your money on freefly right off student status, fine, I don't blame ya for wanting to, I did the same thing. But spend the extra and get coaching so you'll be competent without those belly skills, or get some tunnel time to learn them. Money buys jumps, but it doesn't buy safety or experience.

! Tongue


Ok, I was very careful to say that I got coaching and am safe. That said, I ought to be able to spend my jump ticket $ the way I want.

Thats all im saying...that AFTER we determine a person is safe when FFing, then all the other comments really are moot...because beyond saftey, I have a right to spend my money as I wish....and its not because im a spoiled little right kid...quite the opposite actually....which is precisely why im not going to start off with RW...because I dont want too and its my money that i worked extremly hard for.






Now, to the original poster,...why is it I feel I want to ff?

Thats a pretty hard question. Im sure a lot of it has to do with the freedom...no creeping..no slots.. you just fly they way you want too. If I feel like doing a circle around person A. I do it. I dont have to worry about stairstep, slot X, bla bla bla creep creep crepp ughhh..its so structuralized.


And no, im not the type B, dont care about progressing just want to play.

Rather, if anything, i am over ambitious...with plans on competing within the next couple of years.

Still, the entire reason we are out there is to have fun. And to me, FreeFlying offers me the opportunity to have fun, yet still be challanged and progress at a skill that is very difficult..arguably moreso than RW.

thanks for listening Smile


skipro101  (A License)

May 10, 2004, 1:00 PM
Post #25 of 66 (3448 views)
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Re: [WrongWay] [Long] Why newer jumpers want to Freefly at 20 jumps.. [In reply to] Can't Post

"Also, being on the USPA board doesn't make anyone special."



I never said it made anyone special, please read what i wrote not your interpretation.

All im saying is that some suggest that once one has more experiance, he or she can see that its better to start with RW. There are many examples of people who have thousands of jumps who do not feel that way. it has nothing to do with USPA, perhaps i should have just stated her jump numbers since thats what i was trying to get across...experiance.


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