Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
no wind landings

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

airdvr  (D 10977)

Apr 30, 2004, 6:31 AM
Post #1 of 40 (2075 views)
Shortcut
no wind landings Can't Post

OK...here's another one. Jumping a Tri 190 loaded at 1.3. I love the way the canopy flares and planes out except in no wind conditions. Can't seem to get it slowed down. I've been told I should try final at 1/2 brakes and then flare. I'm not into swooping because I don't look good in crutches. Your thoughts?


(This post was edited by airdvr on Apr 30, 2004, 6:32 AM)


gus

Apr 30, 2004, 6:43 AM
Post #2 of 40 (2036 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airdvr] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

Coming in on half brakes is surely going to make the flare even less powerful? Think how accuracy guys land, they come in in very deep brakes and have almost nothing left to flare with - and they stoof in!

Have you checked the length of your brake lines? Maybe you're physically not able to flare all the way with the brakelines as they are.

Gus


chuteless  (D 41)

Apr 30, 2004, 6:46 AM
Post #3 of 40 (2031 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airdvr] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

Make sure you know how to do a good PLF....you "might need it".

Teach your mind and body to respond to a fast approach, and if you have to roll it out, you'll be prepared. Sometimes, it can save your day.

Bill Cole D-41


NeedToJump  (D 27247)

Apr 30, 2004, 6:48 AM
Post #4 of 40 (2028 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airdvr] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

You can't comletely shut a canopy down in no wind conditions - in order to fly the canopy needs forward speed. When you've slowed it to a certain point there is no longer enough speed to keep it flying and at that point you have to walk / run / slide it out.

You could try flaring slightly faster towards the end of the plane out which will pop the canopy up slightly. This way when the canopy stops flying its momentum is taking it up and forward. The speed will be the same but the forward speed will be less and gravity will also be helping you to stop.


airdvr  (D 10977)

Apr 30, 2004, 6:48 AM
Post #5 of 40 (2031 views)
Shortcut
Re: [gus] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

Its possible...except that it does flatten out nicely so I don't think its a brake line length issue. Its just that when it planes out I'm sill covering ground way too fast to run it out.


airdvr  (D 10977)

Apr 30, 2004, 7:06 AM
Post #6 of 40 (2002 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuteless] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Make sure you know how to do a good PLF....you "might need it".
Hehe...at that speed its more like a slide with a tumble thrown in for style.Pirate


migliore  (D 28383)

Apr 30, 2004, 7:24 AM
Post #7 of 40 (1982 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airdvr] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

Try a double front-riser approach. Release risers about 2 sec. before your flare and do a nice full flare. Worked great for me when I had the same problem.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Apr 30, 2004, 7:31 AM
Post #8 of 40 (1968 views)
Shortcut
Re: [migliore] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

Double front risers increase the canopies speed, that is not what you want to do if you can not stand up landings. Ari posted the best advice. Canopies, unless they are stalled, have forward airspeed in flight. You just need to get the forward airspeed to a point that you can walk it off or slide it out. I perfer the sliding it out on my feet method. Its just like sliding on wood floors, and you keep the flare going the whole time and its a slide with about 2 steps at the end.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Apr 30, 2004, 7:32 AM
Post #9 of 40 (1968 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airdvr] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Its possible...except that it does flatten out nicely so I don't think its a brake line length issue. Its just that when it planes out I'm sill covering ground way too fast to run it out.
Won't a canopy "plane out" at less than full Brakes? You still might try taking a wrap and checking the stall point up high. Another thing is that at your wing loading, 1.3, which you consider mild but the manufacturer consider expert, you won't get tippy toe, no wind landings. The chute won't fly a Zero airspeed. Keep your speed up on final, and learn to slide on your feet, or take up running as a hobby. Good luck.Smile


NeedToJump  (D 27247)

Apr 30, 2004, 7:34 AM
Post #10 of 40 (1960 views)
Shortcut
Re: [migliore] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Try a double front-riser approach. Release risers about 2 sec. before your flare and do a nice full flare. Worked great for me when I had the same problem.

On some canopies that would work fine and on other releasing 2 seconds before starting the flare would smack you into the ground hard Crazy Please be careful giving advice about high speed approaches...


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Apr 30, 2004, 7:45 AM
Post #11 of 40 (1948 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airdvr] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've been told I should try final at 1/2 brakes and then flare.

Absolutely not.

A canopy is a flying wing. Wings create lift. Lift is what keeps a plane flying, and its what keeps you off the ground.

Wings generate lift through some complex patterns of aerodynamics. The nutshell is that the airflow moving over the top of the wing generates lift. The more airflow moving over the top, the more lift it creates. Conversely, the less airflow moving over the top of the wing, the less lift it creates.

The problem that you're having in no wind conditions, is that towards the end of your flare your canopy is running out of lift, even though you're still moving forward.

Approaching in half brakes might seem like a good idea because it will slow your ground speed, but it will not work. In addition to slowing your groundspeed, you're also reducing the amount of air passing over your canopy, which will reduce the amount of lift your canopy is generating. Just like before, your canopy will run out of lift before you come to a complete stop.

Figure it this way. There is a magic speed, which can be expressed in MPH of airspeed, where your canopy will not produce enough lift to keep you off the ground. This magic number is dependant on a whole lot of things, and is different for everyone. Mostly though, this magic number is dependent on the shape of the wing (rectangular? eliptical) , the amount of suspended weight (wingloading), and the amount of drag induced by the shape of your body, the lines, and the pilotchute.

This magic number represents the stall speed of your canopy under normal circumstances if you do everything right. You can easily increase the stall speed of your canopy, but its pretty much impossible to reduce it beyond this magic number.

This is the essense of what you're complaining about.

Under a moderately loaded triathlon, this magic number - the minimum stall speed, is probably somewhere around 5 MPH. You can easily make the canopy stall at a higher airspeed, (which can be dangerous), but you'll have trouble getting the stall speed much lower.

If you're jumping in absolutely no wind, you'll have somewhere around 5 MPH of forward speed after you've wringed every last bit of flare from your canopy. Your only choice is to run it off or slide it off. This isn't so bad... 5 MPH really isn't that hard to run.

If you refuse to run 5 MPH, then you can easily counter this by not jumping when there's no wind. If you're landing into a 5 mph headwind, then this magic number = windspeed, which effectively reduces the magic number to 0.

What I would suggest to you, is that you keep practicing your flares. First do it up high, then during actual landings. Learn how to wring every last ounce of flare from your canopy. Learn how to feel how much flare is left, based on forward speed and your position underneath the canopy (you pitch forward during the flare).

Ignore anyone who says that you need to either gain speed (say, during a hook turn), or reduce speed (by approaching in half brakes) to improve your landings. Either they don't understand the basics of aerodynamics, or they're trying to get you to hurt yourself.

Only once you've mastered landings from normal "full-flight" - and I really do mean mastered, then you can start to complicate things by adding speed, or reducing speed to your landings.

_Am


airdvr  (D 10977)

Apr 30, 2004, 7:46 AM
Post #12 of 40 (1944 views)
Shortcut
Re: [NeedToJump] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Try a double front-riser approach.
I kinda disregarded that advice. I've been doing this long enough to know that I'm too chicken and not stupid enough to try that one.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Apr 30, 2004, 7:53 AM
Post #13 of 40 (1937 views)
Shortcut
Re: [migliore] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

Shane,

Any front riser approaches are not to be taken lightly. The jumper has mentioned that they're not interested in adding additional speed (swooping of sorts) to their landings. We have no idea on how many jumps they have (assume over 200 at least because of D), how current they are or what flying styles they have. To encourage adding speed isn't good advice.

As mentioned before, Ari had the best suggestion for dealing with the "issue".

Blue skies,
Ian


NeedToJump  (D 27247)

Apr 30, 2004, 7:54 AM
Post #14 of 40 (1934 views)
Shortcut
Re: [AndyMan] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Andy, that's basically what I was trying to say but you explained it a lot better Smile


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Apr 30, 2004, 7:56 AM
Post #15 of 40 (1931 views)
Shortcut
Re: [NeedToJump] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
that's basically what I was trying to say but you explained it a lot better

Probably cause he's smarter than you Tongue

See you soon bro!

Blue ones,
Ian


airdvr  (D 10977)

Apr 30, 2004, 8:14 AM
Post #16 of 40 (1916 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ianmdrennan] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

I think my problem is my "old school" style of flaring. It comes from putting over 1000 jumps on a Delta Cloud, which means get all of the flare you can as quickly as possible. I'm thinking maybe flaring a ZP is more of a staged thing...maybe it'll plane out at 3/4 brakes and then I have the last part to bleed off speed with? Problem is I'm kinda chicken to attempt that type of landing flare for fear that I'll stove myself in. Is there a way to test that theory with a nice wind to land into?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Apr 30, 2004, 8:27 AM
Post #17 of 40 (1893 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airdvr] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
thinking maybe flaring a ZP is more of a staged thing...maybe it'll plane out at 3/4 brakes and then I have the last part to bleed off speed with?

I know what you're saying but instead of a "staged flare" try to think of it as actually flying a wing. The goal is to keep yourself level with the ground as long as possible. We do this by increasing our flare as necessary at the sacrifice of forward speed. Eventually we'll hit Andy's magic number and no longer be able to generate any lift with the given forward speed. That is the point of touch down.

I often see people not finish their flare (and I can be guilty of this too sometimes Frown) because they're able to put their feet down. The trick to remember is that just because you can put your feet down, doesn't necessarily mean you should.

Quote:
Problem is I'm kinda chicken to attempt that type of landing flare for fear that I'll stove myself in. Is there a way to test that theory with a nice wind to land into?

Practice up high all the time. Keep flaring the canopy, paying particular attention to the wind noise, the pressure on your leg straps and decent rate. You should find that at about shoulder height (lower on some canopies) that you'll feel yourself plain out and things will get quieter. This is the canopy's "sweet spot" from full glide where for a period of time you'll have zero decent rate. That's where you want to be just prior to the ground. From then on a smooth controlled flare all the way down should accomplish what I was discussing above. keep flying that till you absolutely HAVE to touch down (canopy runs out of lift) and I'm sure you'll find you have much softer, slower landings.

It's a lot of info to cram into text, but I hope I've at least helped give you an idea of what you're trying to accomplish.

Blue ones,
Ian


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Apr 30, 2004, 8:27 AM
Post #18 of 40 (1892 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airdvr] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think my problem is my "old school" style of flaring.

Very possible.

ZP canopies do need to an active flare.

What do I mean by an active flare?

The evolution of flaring since the days of Delta Clouds is that first we started teaching a "2-stage flare", which is exactly like you describe. 1st stage is toggles to the shoulders for the plane-out, second stage is toggles to crotch for the landing. The 2-stage flare was popular for a while, then canopies evolved to needing a "3-stage" flare. The 3-stages are toggles to ears, chest, crotch.

Now with the latest round of canopies (saber2, etc), the 3-stage isn't even enough. Canopies now need what I call an "active flare", which ultimately has an infinate number of stages. Canopies are now providing enonugh feedback that the pilot should be using the full range of points on the canopy to get them the best landing. This only comes through trial and error.

Yes, do start with a 2-stage flare. Don't try it so high that you burn off all your airspeed before you land. Make sure you're starting your flare where you want the canopy to plane-out.

Once you've figured out that a 2-stage flare won't kill you then try adding that third stage.

Once you've realised that third stage won't cause a femur, then explore the range of motion between the different points, and learn the feel of the canopy. It's a tactile thing. It's something you've got to learn over time.

One thing I do know for sure, is that if you're doing a one stage, fast, sudden %100 flare - you're instantly killing the lift of the canopy before it has time to plane you out. Think of what would happen if a glider were to suddenly go 90degrees nose up in full flight. It'd kill the effect of the wing, and it'd drop out of the sky.

As always, practice up high to get the feeling before you bring it down low.

_Am


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Apr 30, 2004, 8:32 AM
Post #19 of 40 (1886 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airdvr] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think my problem is my "old school" style of flaring. It comes from putting over 1000 jumps on a Delta Cloud, which means get all of the flare you can as quickly as possible. I'm thinking maybe flaring a ZP is more of a staged thing...maybe it'll plane out at 3/4 brakes and then I have the last part to bleed off speed with? Problem is I'm kinda chicken to attempt that type of landing flare for fear that I'll stove myself in. Is there a way to test that theory with a nice wind to land into?

My Hornet seems to me to plane out at 1/3 brakes, then I steadily finish the flare all the way to the stall point while I'm as close to the ground as possible. Finishing the flare in no wind makes a very big difference in how hard I have to run.

With a little wind, I do pretty much the same thing, except I don't end up running or walking if I did it right.

With more than a little wind, I don't finish the flare because I don't want to be going backwards. (I fly it until I'm sure I'm on the ground, then I crash it.)

You can try and practice different flare techniques up high and "guess" what is really happening based on what you see and feel. When I did this I found I got more useful information when I looked down at 45 degrees (as I would for landing) or out at the horizon, vs straight down. (Looking straight down, I didn't learn nuthin'.) Without the ground or something approximating it nearby, you won't really know exactly what's happening, but you might get a rough feel for planing, hopping up, slowing down, and stalling without ground-related risks.


airdvr  (D 10977)

Apr 30, 2004, 8:41 AM
Post #20 of 40 (1871 views)
Shortcut
Re: [FrogNog] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

I want everyone here to know how much I appreciate the input. I've been feeling like I'm a bit "behind the curve" when it comes to the equipment. So much has changed since '92. My beer jump on a ZP canopy was last fall, and I couldn't beleive the handling difference from the old 111's. Then I proceeded to get a Sabre spanking that was a real wakeup call. I can still feel the ache in my back. Now I'm flying a fairly highly loaded Tri. Just want to be able to walk away so I can jump again.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Apr 30, 2004, 9:08 AM
Post #21 of 40 (1844 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airdvr] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

I find that modern ZP parachutes land more like a Cessna 172 than my large F111 seven-cells - they're different animals.

1. Get video, it shows what you're doing rather than what you think you're doing.

2. Make sure you can actually stall it at altitude. Enough toggle to get a parchute to "flatten out nicely" can still have it flying at a speed you wouldn't want to land.

3. Your feet touching the ground doesn't mean the canopy is done flying. If it's not yet going slow enough add more toggle. Many people don't finish their flares.

4. Stall speed depends on wing shape, angle of attack, and wing loading. You can change all three. Flaring warps the wing like flaps on a plan) and slows the canopy down while you continue going forward thus changing pitch. You can slide with part of your weight on the ground thus reducing the stall speed.

5. It's a dynamic system. How fast you do things influences how the canopy lands. Quicker input on plane-out will get you a lower stall speed. Sinking lower than your final landing altitude will allow you to apply more input at the end of the flare getting you back to ground level instead of feet in the air, pitching the canopy, and getting you a slower stall speed.

6. It's interactive. You'll do things differently on different days, your perceptions will be different, the wind will be different, density altitude will be different. You need to see what's happening and adjust your inputs to match - add enough toggle at a reasonable altitude to plane out, add more if you sink too much, pause your flare if you're floating up.


BETO74  (D License)

Apr 30, 2004, 10:09 AM
Post #22 of 40 (1817 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airdvr] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

All I can say is, speed is your friend, more speed more lift if you're loading your canopy 1:3 you'll need lift to get a powerful flare.

I think you are taking more risk coming on final half breaks since you will leave litle power for a flare a canopy class will be a good idea.

Now I'm not saying do a low turn or anything crazy to get that speed but you probably need to get confortable with the speed of your canopy on straigh approaches, if you can't I'll suggest a new canopy that you don't load that much.

Just my two cts.Wink


panzwami  (D License)

Apr 30, 2004, 11:26 AM
Post #23 of 40 (1777 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ianmdrennan] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The trick to remember is that just because you can put your feet down, doesn't necessarily mean you should.

I think this is the key point here. It is very common to see people who are so preoccupied with putting their feet down that they forget they are flying a canopy. I used to do the same thing all the time, and I'll be the first to admit it's a difficult habit to break. But if you focus on continuing to fly the canopy right up until the point it stops producing lift, you should find your landings to be much better.

Hope this helps.


happythoughts  (D License)

Apr 30, 2004, 2:43 PM
Post #24 of 40 (1724 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airdvr] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

My personal method. I come in just like a regular landing except 2 ft higher. Then I stall the canopy at that height. It no longer has forward speed and sets me down gently. It is like stepping off a regular 8" step.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

May 1, 2004, 10:23 AM
Post #25 of 40 (1629 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airdvr] no wind landings [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
OK...here's another one. Jumping a Tri 190 loaded at 1.3. I love the way the canopy flares and planes out except in no wind conditions. Can't seem to get it slowed down. I've been told I should try final at 1/2 brakes and then flare. I'm not into swooping because I don't look good in crutches. Your thoughts?

On final speed is your friend. If you feel you are having trouble with the last bit of the flight you may need to seek coaching on just your approach and flare. Coming down into the flare in half brakes robs your canopy of a lot of its performance. Using half brakes the slowly letting up at the last moment to flare completely again may cause your wing to surge forward when letting up and make things even worse and this is dangerous if you haven't mastered regular no-wind landings.
If you fixate on the ground directly below you the sensation you are getting will be worse. You need to develope a scan that includes looking farther forward. More so in lighter winds. If after all this and If you still really want to slow things down you may need to upsize your canopy until you are comfortable.


First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Safety and Training

 


Search for (options)