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Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load?

 

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2wheeljunkie  (Student)

Apr 27, 2004, 11:16 PM
Post #1 of 32 (3013 views)
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Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? Can't Post

Or should I STFU and let them run the show (and my comfort level, whatever that is)?


AggieDave  (D License)

Apr 27, 2004, 11:20 PM
Post #2 of 32 (2971 views)
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Re: [2wheeljunkie] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

Always feel free to bring up your concerns with your instructor(s) or the S&TA!

If you're not comfortable, then you probably won't have a good jump, right? Although you may be worried about a non-issue, in talking with them you might be able to learn something new and ease a worry.

If you think something truely wrong is going on, look at the winds and consult the SIM (I'm assuming you're at a USPA DZ). There are wind limits for students, although there can be waivers for that issued.


2wheeljunkie  (Student)

Apr 27, 2004, 11:40 PM
Post #3 of 32 (2959 views)
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Re: [2wheeljunkie] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

For anyone else that answers, I'm not questioning my DZ's judgement. I'm just stepping into this sport conservatively and plan to continue at a relative snail's pace. I want to do this frequently! The winds were a little higher than my previous 3 jumps for my last jump. I noticed it and had to limit my canopy experimentation because I was headed to the DZ pretty fast. I was not worried about it, but I'm just interested in some numbers, and some DZ info (do they display AWS). I'm getting off the training wheels (S/L) my next day at the DZ.


jas8472  (C License)

Apr 28, 2004, 12:03 AM
Post #4 of 32 (2950 views)
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Re: [2wheeljunkie] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

There should be a few wind socks about, when there are horizontal that means the wind is a specific speed, depending on the size, the larger the wind sock the faster the wind speed when horizontal, ask about to find out what speed they are.

It's only a rough guide but it's good to know as a quick visual check from almost any where on the DZ.

I think the ones at my local DZ are 15 & 30 mph.


goochflies  (A License)

Apr 28, 2004, 12:20 AM
Post #5 of 32 (2944 views)
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Re: [2wheeljunkie] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm thinking that during your student training your instuctors should brief you on each of your jumps and explain to you the effects of stronger winds and your flight/ landing pattern. Average Wind Speed is not really a term that we use. We use terms like winds aloft and surface winds. Most dz's post the winds aloft somewhere. Just ask and insist that your instructor brief you properly before each jump. It's your ass...


nacmacfeegle  (D 11004)

Apr 28, 2004, 1:12 AM
Post #6 of 32 (2928 views)
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Re: [2wheeljunkie] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

Its not average wind speed that will catch you out, its the gusts, and associated erratic turbulence.

You can normally get peak gusts and their timings from manifest, just go and ask.Smile After a while you will be able to feel the wind and estimate gust strength for yourself. Someone suggested watching windsocks, these will give you a reasonable estimate of strength, and also the gusts propensity to change direction rapidly.

Your instructors will guide you until you have a license, after that you will be all grown up and have to set limits for yourself. These limits will be based on confidence and ability under canopy, wing loading, reserve type and size, size of landing areas, offlanding outs etc. Your resolution to stick with limits will probably depend on your desire to jump.
Remember, just because you are at the DZ, it doesn't mean you have to jump. I recognise that it is tough sitting out loads.

If I feel weather is marginal, or I am unfamiliar with local turbulence patterns, I like to watch a couple of loads land, and see how the other people fare.


damion75  (D 102144)

Apr 28, 2004, 2:17 AM
Post #7 of 32 (2915 views)
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Re: [nacmacfeegle] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

As NMF says above - it is often the gusts which cause trouble. While you are a student I would simply trust to your instructor's judgement about whether you should be jumping, but this is also an excellent time to ask him/her questions about the subject.

At my DZ, the student limit is 15 knots and the overall limit is 20 knots - if the winds go over (including gusts!) then we go on hold for 30 minutes. Yes it can be a pain, but not as much of a pain as a bad / off landing because we misjudged the winds...

Anyone can see the wind monitor in manifest.


thelem  (C 103786)

Apr 28, 2004, 2:41 AM
Post #8 of 32 (2911 views)
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Re: [damion75] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, since they lowered the dz control tower at nethers and started using it, the wind monitor has been moved up to there.


bbarnhouse  (D License)
Pixie
Apr 28, 2004, 6:24 AM
Post #9 of 32 (2853 views)
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Re: [thelem] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

A good indication for the experienced jumper while visiting a drop zone is....if the locals arent jumping there is a reason for it.Wink


skyyhi  (B 26847)

Apr 28, 2004, 6:37 AM
Post #10 of 32 (2847 views)
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Re: [2wheeljunkie] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

This time of year in Elsinore (and I understand it gets worse as the weather gets warmer) the winds can be completely different and blowing in a different direction from where the monitor's vane is and the landing area. I try to make it a habit to walk the landing area and see what the winds feel like several times a day - taking note of direction and position of windsock. Of course, as anyone can attest to in these climes, the direction and speed of winds can change on the ride to altitude. . .we have windsocks and brightly colored flags (as well as the untrustworthy tetrahedron) to indicate wind direction.


weegegirl  (D License)

Apr 28, 2004, 6:43 AM
Post #11 of 32 (2844 views)
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Re: [2wheeljunkie] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

we have a wind monitor behind manifest. i check it before every load. it tells you the current wind speed and what the winds are gusting up to. i'm not one to jump in high or squirrly winds... and i'm usually keeping my eye out for newbies who don't know better yet.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 28, 2004, 10:00 AM
Post #12 of 32 (2782 views)
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Re: [weegegirl] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

When canopies similar to yours start backing up, you should stop jumping.


kallend  (D 23151)

Apr 28, 2004, 10:38 AM
Post #13 of 32 (2765 views)
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Re: [2wheeljunkie] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I don't know that one number does the trick.

At SDC, I will jump in 18 - 20kt winds out of the west or north, but I have a lower threshold for winds from the east, because they come over a steep river valley and a forest before they reach the DZ, so they are always more turbulent. Generally, it's the turbulence that hurts you.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Apr 28, 2004, 12:17 PM
Post #14 of 32 (2741 views)
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Re: [2wheeljunkie] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

Mine has just a current speed indicator - it's not to supposed to exceed 15 for a period of X (?) minutes or I'm on wind hold. Given that I like to sleep in, I didn't see many low wind days - I've found those harder to judge the flare point as the approach speed was higher.

The tricky thing to learn on the higher wind is knowing not to go too far on the downwind leg and risk being unable to make it back. I did that on the second one and afterwards was told to turn inward when I reach the end of the landing field. Your DZ will be able to give the appropriate pattern for your location. Know this is advance - don't rely on radio instructions. When I went long they were busy with my buddy so I flew my own pattern, but I was thinking more like an airplane. Fortunately the winds weren't too strong that day and I got back to the near edge.


nightjumps  (No License)

Apr 28, 2004, 3:07 PM
Post #15 of 32 (2702 views)
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Re: [2wheeljunkie] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

What riggerrob said.

Know what your canopy's forward speed is...
If greater than that = no jump.


jumper03  (D License)

Apr 28, 2004, 8:55 PM
Post #16 of 32 (2648 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A good indication for the experienced jumper while visiting a drop zone is....if the locals arent jumping there is a reason for it.Wink

same goes for birds!!

When I see the birds walking - so do I!

Jump


nacmacfeegle  (D 11004)

Apr 29, 2004, 3:24 AM
Post #17 of 32 (2629 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

"The tricky thing to learn on the higher wind is knowing not to go too far on the downwind leg and risk being unable to make it back."

A neat phrase I picked up in Texas for those windy days....
Never fly over anything you don't want to land on.


Kid_Icarus  (B License)

Apr 29, 2004, 12:18 PM
Post #18 of 32 (2589 views)
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Re: [nacmacfeegle] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wanted to jump this weekend and the winds were a little high, I was about ready to load, when a buddy of mine, who has 100 or so jumps was sitting this one out. I thought, if he is, then I will too. Observation was key. Then he said something that I'll never forget:

"It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground."

Sound advice. Thanks John!


VanillaSkyGirl

Apr 29, 2004, 5:15 PM
Post #19 of 32 (2555 views)
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Re: [skyyhi] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Of course, as anyone can attest to in these climes, the direction and speed of winds can change on the ride to altitude. .

They even change upon the landing...Unimpressed Canopy control courses are the best...I am taking one tomorrow for my new canopy.


lawrocket  (Student)

Apr 29, 2004, 5:22 PM
Post #20 of 32 (2553 views)
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Re: [2wheeljunkie] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

At 4 jumps, if you are jumping in winds over 14 mph, that's bad.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Apr 29, 2004, 6:01 PM
Post #21 of 32 (2546 views)
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Re: [2wheeljunkie] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

My DZ does have a wind meter, but I don't usually consider it super accurate, and beyond that, a meter is just one "measure" of the wind. I actually wrote a feature for the S&TA area of The Ranch web site that covers winds. It's available at http://ranchskydive.com/safety/index.htm. Click on Article 6.

The story is specific to The Ranch and includes some phone numbers for local airport AWOS and ATIS recordings. Your DZ may have nearby airports with similar recorded weather...show your pilots my S&TA Feature and ask if there are numbers available to serve that function for your DZ.


SkydiveMO  (D License)

Apr 30, 2004, 5:54 AM
Post #22 of 32 (2508 views)
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Re: [lawrocket] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

Many of the Basic Safety Requirements (BSRs) outlined by the USPA are waiverable. The 14mph wind limit for students is one of them, if the DZ and surrounding area is free of obstacles such as buildings and trees students can safely jump at higher wind speeds. An instructor or safety and training advisor (S&TA) can show you if and what waivers may be in effect at your DZ.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 30, 2004, 9:16 AM
Post #23 of 32 (2485 views)
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

>The 14mph wind limit for students is one of them, if the DZ and
> surrounding area is free of obstacles such as buildings and trees
> students can safely jump at higher wind speeds.

Yes and no. One of the reasons for having a wind limit is so a downwind landing won't be fatal. Removing obstacles helps with that a bit (no need to fly downwind to make the landing area) but a student can still screw up and land downwind - and landing downwind at 30mph can be dangerous. Wind limits can be waivered, but jumping in high winds is still more dangerous than jumping in lower winds even when the landing area is wide open.


SkydiveMO  (D License)

Apr 30, 2004, 9:58 AM
Post #24 of 32 (2478 views)
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Re: [billvon] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that you would agree that USPA would never waiver wind limits for students to 30mph. The statement made by lawrocket was that jumping over 14mph as a student is bad. If an area is free of buildings and trees that may cause turbulance and the winds are constant not gusting then it is quite reasonable for a student to jump in say 18mph winds.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 30, 2004, 10:02 AM
Post #25 of 32 (2475 views)
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Re: [SkydiveMO] Does your DZ display average wind speed? I know they watch it, but where should a newbie skip the load? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I think that you would agree that USPA would never waiver wind limits
>for students to 30mph.

20mph wind + 10mph canopy = 30mph landing.


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