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Vigil Ground Misfire

 

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USPA  (D 81812)

Apr 16, 2004, 12:34 PM
Post #101 of 136 (2532 views)
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Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

I rest my case...


skymedic  (C 33561)

Apr 16, 2004, 1:59 PM
Post #102 of 136 (2514 views)
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Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

not one but two teams.....and honestly, I dont think that majik or the french team would be jumping them consistently if they thought it was going to kill them. that would be stupid. now if you want to call those guys stupid, that's up to you.


indiana  (D License)

Apr 16, 2004, 2:39 PM
Post #103 of 136 (2501 views)
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Re: [jmfreefly] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

quote
Are you claiming that the hardware was the same, or that it was exactly the same (and Vigil is misinforming the public)?

I mentioned earlier in the forum that the beta units and production units are one and the same (to offer these as a Beta was a marketing tool). This was for sure in Europe and now it seems also in the US (as Kim seems to confirm).

The unit that fired in Gap was a standard production unit (exactly the same to answer your question). Maybe they updated the software AFTER the incident in France, I dont know.

What I do know is that there were more units in use (not many I guess, but still) and these had by my knowledge never a re-call (or did I miss a service bulletin somewhere?)

Misinforming? You may call it what you like. I think that in legal terms they are right. This was the first release, they used for the first released models the term Beta and Beta means experimental. So, bringing out a statement that the unit in France was experimental is correct.

It would be misinforming if they said the unit was significantly different from the other units, they did not.

IndianaWink


indiana  (D License)

Apr 16, 2004, 2:52 PM
Post #104 of 136 (2498 views)
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Re: [skymedic] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't call them stupid. What I do know is that Sponsoring brings with you some obligations towards the sponsor (like don't criticise the product in public)

Simple question how long is the product on the market and how many incidents sofar?

I think time will learn...
Indiana


Chrisky

Apr 16, 2004, 2:55 PM
Post #105 of 136 (2498 views)
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Re: [skymedic] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

the french team jumped cypres during the world cup, as i read in the german association newspaper...
then again, most of these guys have not only one rig and not only one AAD...


(This post was edited by Chrisky on Apr 16, 2004, 2:55 PM)


Ron

Apr 16, 2004, 4:51 PM
Post #106 of 136 (2489 views)
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Re: [skymedic] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
not one but two teams.....and honestly, I dont think that majik or the french team would be jumping them consistently if they thought it was going to kill them. that would be stupid. now if you want to call those guys stupid, that's up to you.

If I remember correctly...The French didn't jump theirs for a while after they had the fire.

And as for them being stupid...Well have you ever been sponsored?

The #1 rule is not to bash your sponsors.


Shark  (D 24499)

Apr 16, 2004, 9:26 PM
Post #107 of 136 (2468 views)
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Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
not one but two teams.....and honestly, I dont think that majik or the french team would be jumping them consistently if they thought it was going to kill them. that would be stupid. now if you want to call those guys stupid, that's up to you.

If I remember correctly...The French didn't jump theirs for a while after they had the fire.

And as for them being stupid...Well have you ever been sponsored?

The #1 rule is not to bash your sponsors.

Yes, but why would anyone jump something that is "unsafe?"

Dude, we can go on all year debating this....

You've gone way beyond making a point.Unimpressed

What do you do for your sponsors? I'm sure you praise and highlight their products, but do you do so at the expense of slamming others?


USPA  (D 81812)

Apr 17, 2004, 2:01 AM
Post #108 of 136 (2456 views)
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Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The French didn't jump theirs for a while after they had the fire.
They were test jumping a unit that wasn't on the market at that time and they weren't allowed by the french parachute association. (they were quickly unbanned after that again)


Ron

Apr 17, 2004, 4:09 PM
Post #109 of 136 (2420 views)
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Re: [Shark] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What do you do for your sponsors? I'm sure you praise and highlight their products, but do you do so at the expense of slamming others?

Whos slamming anyone? I just asked for answers. Besides Im not sponsored by CYPRES (For proof just read any post by me about the "CYPRES Generation).

You like having the cool new toy? Fine. I have doubts about its saftey that they have not cleared up.


Ron

Apr 21, 2004, 4:38 AM
Post #110 of 136 (2343 views)
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Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Bump!!

Any new info?


Rdutch  (D 24618)

Apr 21, 2004, 7:36 AM
Post #111 of 136 (2312 views)
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Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

None that I have heard about. So far the vigil units are still being replaced, but they are still perfectly safe to jump until then. Since the misfire problem can only happen during packing in a cool dry environment.

One thing: Skydive Deland has pulled all vigils out of their student and tandem rigs, as well as all of their rentals and Bob's personal rig also. All sales of the vigil that has been made by skydive Deland have been or in the process of being recalled.


(This post was edited by Rdutch on Apr 21, 2004, 7:42 AM)


Ron

Apr 21, 2004, 8:32 AM
Post #112 of 136 (2294 views)
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Re: [Rdutch] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One thing: Skydive Deland has pulled all vigils out of their student and tandem rigs, as well as all of their rentals and Bob's personal rig also. All sales of the vigil that has been made by skydive Deland have been or in the process of being recalled.

WOW...DeLand is pulling all the Vigils out of thier rigs...including Bob's...

And the big thing, DeLand is recalling all Vigils they SOLD?

What are they doing, Refunding the money? And what are they doing with units?

Thats two DZ's that have pulled the Vigils.


indiana  (D License)

Apr 21, 2004, 1:41 PM
Post #113 of 136 (2261 views)
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Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

What is the name of the onther DZ?

Indiana


jmfreefly  (D License)

Apr 22, 2004, 9:45 AM
Post #114 of 136 (2185 views)
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Re: [Rdutch] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One thing: Skydive Deland has pulled all vigils out of their student and tandem rigs, as well as all of their rentals and Bob's personal rig also. All sales of the vigil that has been made by skydive Deland have been or in the process of being recalled.

Pulled to be sent to Vigil for replacement, or pulled permanently and replaced with a different AAD?


Ron

Apr 22, 2004, 10:25 AM
Post #115 of 136 (2173 views)
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Re: [indiana] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What is the name of the onther DZ?

Read the first post...SDA I think.


Ron

Apr 26, 2004, 8:59 AM
Post #116 of 136 (2083 views)
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Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone heard about the DeLand in air fire yet?


indiana  (D License)

May 4, 2004, 7:07 AM
Post #117 of 136 (2001 views)
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Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

No info about the Deland misfire. With the latest misfire in Australia (04.22.04) do we have:

Ground misfires: 4 (Z.Hills 1/ Atlanta 1/ Gap 2)
Air misfires: 5 ( Gap 1/ Z.Hills 1/ Deland 1/ Australia 2)
Total: 9

service bulletin 1:
The Vigil can still be jumped since an electrostatic misfire can only happen on the ground. (???)

The number of misfires in the air is now higher than those on the ground.

All misfires were during (or close to) to opening time. This scares me!

The Germans have the Vigil forbidden until being replaced by others.

IndianaPirate


TimHurford  (D License)

May 4, 2004, 7:47 AM
Post #118 of 136 (1986 views)
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Re: [indiana] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Virgil SB#1A from APF website - second Aus incident appears to be from static caused by static-line operations (pun on words clearly not intentional!)
Attachments: VigilServiceBulletin01A.pdf (45.0 KB)


KevinMcGuire  (D 15395)

May 4, 2004, 7:53 AM
Post #119 of 136 (1982 views)
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Re: [beej] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

amen to that. How simple is it to build a TV? Could you do it? I know I couldn't. Now lets make something that is actually supposed to save some ones life. Oh yea.. and it can never malfunctiuon. Sounds easy enough to me. Lets do it...


sdctlc  (D 16437)

May 4, 2004, 9:08 AM
Post #120 of 136 (1958 views)
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Re: [TimHurford] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

    I know that they said a replacement rate of about 25/week with the "B" versions.

Has there been any reports of problems with the new circut board that is in the "B" version. All of the problems that have been stated have either been "A" version (seems like this had "static" fires) or in the Beta testing which is what you would hope for in the testing phase (trying to get bugs out)

I like the features that the units have and have not been too upset about the problems that have come up. AAD as a company seems to be pretty willing to get info out and do the right thing regarding fixing it. Beta tests will only show so much (happened with all AADs newley released to some extent) and try as you might in testing you probably cant re-create all of the "in field" issues that may come up.

Anyway whats the word on the "B" version.....

Scott C.


Ron

May 4, 2004, 10:24 AM
Post #121 of 136 (1938 views)
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Re: [sdctlc] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I like the features that the units have and have not been too upset about the problems that have come up

You mean the possibility that it fires into your main is OK by you?

Or even the hassle of it just firing on the ground and having to get it repacked is OK?


Shark  (D 24499)

May 4, 2004, 10:44 AM
Post #122 of 136 (1929 views)
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Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Ron, et. al.

Most of your comments are demeaning of those that are using products you deem unsafe.

Quote:
You mean the possibility that it fires into your main is OK by you?

Do you really believe that NO AAD has that probability. Again, you appear to believe that some AADs are infallible. The fact is they all are prone to error and if you or anyone is worried about a misfire, don't use one.

I think it's time to write your congressman. You account for over 13% of the posts here, so either a) you babble, or b) you have trouble making a point.

You should try to focus on resolutions, not how naive Vigil users are including Majik & Mabuege.


Ron

May 4, 2004, 11:36 AM
Post #123 of 136 (1906 views)
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Re: [Shark] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Most of your comments are demeaning of those that are using products you deem unsafe.

Well duh! You think I am going to write a glowing recomendation of a product I don't think is safe?

That would be like me telling to to go see "Lenard part 6" a movie I thought was really bad.

In reply to:
Do you really believe that NO AAD has that probability. Again, you appear to believe that some AADs are infallible. The fact is they all are prone to error and if you or anyone is worried about a misfire, don't use one.

Nope I think ALL pieces of skydiving equipment can cause problems....Some are more likley to cause problems than others. I don't jump a NOVA or a Crossfire I or a Dash M reserve either....Nor would I recomend anyone jump them.

As for this issue, I don't see CYPRES fires at 3 grand, or CYPRES ground fires. But I DO see Vigil fires all over the place. The worst part is that they are not addressing the danderous fires, only the ground fires.

1. They have had 4 ground fires and 5 in air fires.
Now the "Beta" unit I can understand. And the Zhills incident I can understand since he was rumored to be around firing altitude anyway...(BTW check my profile to see where I jump).

But they have so far not answered anything on the fire at 3 grand in DeLand. And now there are two more fires in Austrailia....

2. Two DZ's have removed them from the DZ gear.

3. One gear dealer has recalled them all and replaced them with CYPRES 2's at their cost...I have been told that another has stopped selling them also.

4. I have been told one manufactorer does not want them in his rigs.

5. They have admitted a problem, and done a recall...But they didn't address the in air fires, and said they were still safe to jump. UH, so they have misfired, you know they misfire, but you are saying they are safe to jump till they can be replaced?

In reply to:
I think it's time to write your congressman. You account for over 13% of the posts here, so either a) you babble, or b) you have trouble making a point.

How about "C" I see a possibly dangerous piece of equipment being sold with issues that the company refuses to answer questions about. And I don't want to see someone get killed to have the new cool toy.

But yes, I do babble.Wink

In reply to:
You should try to focus on resolutions, not how naive Vigil users are including Majik & Mabuege.

I am looking for resolutions...I want Vigil to answer what happend in DeLand (That they have refused to answer yet) and the two new fires.

As for Majik and Mabuege..They are sponsored...I don't listen to sponsored jumpers opinions on gear...Thats like asking Dale Jr if you should buy a Toyota.

PM sent.


indiana  (D License)

May 4, 2004, 12:43 PM
Post #124 of 136 (1882 views)
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Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
But they have so far not answered anything on the fire at 3 grand in DeLand. And now there are two more fires in Austrailia....

To avoid any misunderstandings: One of these misfires in Australia took place in December 2003.
And the Zhills incident I can understand since he was rumored to be around firing altitude anyway...(BTW check my profile to see where I jump).

I checked your profile and will not argue with you. But the same device fired again on the ground during the repack. This was said to be due to a pinched wire. However, there is also a (very strong)rumour it was NOT a pinched wire. Enough reason to remain doubtfull.

IndianaWink


Ron

May 4, 2004, 12:54 PM
Post #125 of 136 (1872 views)
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Re: [indiana] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I checked your profile and will not argue with you. But the same device fired again on the ground during the repack. This was said to be due to a pinched wire. However, there is also a (very strong)rumour it was NOT a pinched wire. Enough reason to remain doubtfull

Oh I know that story as well...I have been told it was and that it was not a pinched wire. The rigger that packed it has said it was not a pinched wire....

Either way...I don't trust the Vigil, and the lack of answers to peoples questions about a device that could kill someone, and them knowing it can misfire but saying it is safe I find disturbing.

Is someone gonna have to die before they say there is a problem in the air?


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