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Safety Day "discussions" - Decide on the ground!

 


larry  (A 39180)

Mar 11, 2002, 6:01 AM
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Safety Day "discussions" - Decide on the ground! Can't Post

Had a great Safety Day, though the winds were so high that only a few of the really experienced jumpers went up. And all of them got dragged across the ground after landing. Smile

We were talking about malfunctions and what to do, I said that if you have a line over on a reserve and you are spinning, you should try to cut the line causing the problem after trying to resolve it by pulling on the risers/toggles. I felt kind of stupid when the coach said he had never heard of doing anything like this and you should never cut any lines on your reserve (thought I read about doing that here).

I didnt feel as bad when later while talking about pilot chute in tow I brought up pulling the cut away pad before going to the reserve in case the deploying reserve would loosen the container up and allow the main to deploy as well. In this case the coach agreed but one of the AFF-Is and the jump pilot disagreed saying they would go straight for the reserve unless there was more out than the pilot chute.

We looked at the BRSs that said both methods have good and bad points. Also, it started by saying you should know what you will do before you go up, then later said each case is different and should be handled differently; I thought this was a total cop out and a contradiction.

Anyway, the best advice I heard was another jumpmaster who said to make all these kind of decisions on the ground. Talk about it and have a plan when you go up. There will always be different opinions on the best way to handle malfunctions. Make sure your game plan is clear before you get on the plane.

3K, hmmm pilot chute is out
2K, well if I pull my cutaway pillow, I could avoid fouling my reserve
1K, on the other hand, Id rather deal with two out than risking
100 ft, I know Im forgetting something here

Larry


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 11, 2002, 8:45 AM
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Re: Safety Day "discussions" - Decide on the ground! [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed, decide on the ground before you go up.
Secondly, if you experience a main pilotchute-in-tow and any part of the main parachute - even if it is only the main pilotchute - is out: pull the cutaway handle, closely followed by the reserve ripcord.
Thirdly, if you are having a really bad day and experience a line-over on your reserve, start by stalling the canopy, then letting the toggles up quickly. Half the time, this will create enough slack in the offending lines that they will slide off the top skin. If you are still spinning so badly that you won't walk away from the landing - and I emphasis that this is a desperate "last chance" move, take a close look at your lines and cut the offending line-over.
I want to reinforce the notion that line-overs on reserves are exceedingly rare.
On the other hand, it is a good habit to always wear a hook knife and figure out a plan for using it before you board the plane.



diverdriver  (D 19012)

Mar 11, 2002, 9:13 AM
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Re: Safety Day "discussions" - Decide on the ground! [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh boy, here we go on pilot chute in tow debate. I disagree with the cutaway on a pilot chute in tow. I believe, and my friend Frank will attest too, that cutting away will only release the risers which can tangle with the reserve as it deploys. It is easier to deal with two canopies out than an entanglement with your cuttaway main and the reserve. Remember, the reserve risers have to pass the main risers during reserve deployment. If the main deployment sequence has stopped then there is no tension on the main risers. My friend Frank cutaway his main on a pilot chute in tow and the risers caught the reserve slider, and began drawing it up the lines. It collapsed the canopy and he got busted up really bad but lived. I would feel more comfortable dealing with two canopies out and releasing one in the fashion that I want to. Not a random chance that the risers would snag on something while the reserve was in its' deployment sequence.

Chris Schindler
D-19012
ATP/CFII
www.DiverDriver.com



larry  (A 39180)

Mar 11, 2002, 9:27 AM
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Re: Safety Day "discussions" - Decide on the ground! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Oh boy, here we go on pilot chute in tow debate.
I understand, I was just pointing out that there is disagreement and one should decide beforehand.

In reply to:
I would feel more comfortable dealing with two canopies out and releasing one in the fashion that I want to.
This was the contention of one of the AFF-Is. The other tended to agree with what riggerrob said, cut away if you have anything out.


Larry


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 11, 2002, 1:26 PM
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Re: Safety Day "discussions" - Decide on the ground! [In reply to] Can't Post

> . . .cutting away will only release the risers which can tangle with the reserve as it deploys.

I agree, but I see this as more of an argument for good riser covers than for not cutting away.

>I would feel more comfortable dealing with two canopies out and releasing one in the fashion that I want to.
>Not a random chance that the risers would snag on something while the reserve was in its' deployment sequence.

Well, to be fair, you're trading one random chance for another. It's not always possible to release a main cleanly when both main and reserve deploy at the same time - I've seen several reserves landed while trailing a main either from the reserve lines or the jumper himself.

OTOH, if your riser covers work, the odds of you entangling with the loose risers are very, very low.


-bill von


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Mar 11, 2002, 1:52 PM
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Re: Safety Day "discussions" - Decide on the ground! [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, and just to add: With two canopies out I could even decide to land both canopies. This would certainly be determined during the situation.

But Bill, I will argue this about better riser covers: How is that to help you? If you cutaway and this loosens the rig so that the main then continues its' deployment then the covers would open anyway and the risers would be free to leave and possibly snag the reserve. Again, I think that if the two canopies are out and still attached then you have the option of using an arm to guard the risers as they are cutaway or not cutaway them at all. My feeling is that it is a much more controlled situation with not cutting away in this situation. But, to be true, people should make this decision before they go up because a pilot chute in tow is a high speed malfunction and you don't need to be deciding how you'll handle it in the moment. You would agree with that right?

Chris




Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 11, 2002, 2:09 PM
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Re: Safety Day "discussions" - Decide on the ground! [In reply to] Can't Post

>But Bill, I will argue this about better riser covers: How is that to help you? If you cutaway and this loosens
>the rig so that the main then continues its' deployment then the covers would open anyway and the risers
>would be free to leave and possibly snag the reserve.

Correct. I think that an attached main presents a greater risk of entanglement than a departing main, though. Keep in mind that if the main snags on the freebag or reserve PC those things are not attached to the reserve, and thus will simply leave with the main.

>But, to be true, people should make this decision before they go up . . .

Definitely. You should have a basic plan that covers 99% of what can happen up there. Fortunately, it's pretty easy to cover that 99%, because we know what kind of mals happen, and how often they do.

-bill von


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Mar 11, 2002, 2:31 PM
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Re: Safety Day "discussions" - Decide on the ground! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Keep in mind that if the main snags on the freebag or reserve PC those things are not attached to the reserve, and thus will simply leave with the main.
True, I know this. But, what I'm worried about it snagging, and is what happened to my friend and others, is it grabbing the slider on the way out and then collapsing the canopy. Pulling the cutaway and the reserve handle close to the same time won't help, IMO, because the main will only come out (if able) when the reserve leaves. So, I don't see how ya can time it to only have the reserve exposed to the risers when it's still in the freebag.

Chris



Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 11, 2002, 3:23 PM
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Re: Safety Day "discussions" - Decide on the ground! [In reply to] Can't Post

>But, what I'm worried about it snagging, and is what happened to my friend and others,
>is it grabbing the slider on the way out and then collapsing the canopy.

This can definitely happen, but it can happen the other way as well. I know of three incidents where a jumper attempted to release a main from a dual deployment that resulted in problems. In two the main snagged the reserve as it was leaving and made the reserve hard to control, in the third the main collapsed the reserve and the jumper died. OTOH I've never seen a situation where a cutaway main deployed, fouled the reserve, then continued to cause a problem - although I have seen problems with bad riser covers causing problems, as I mentioned earlier. This doesn't mean there won't _be_ problems in the future, but there are arguments on both sides.

So, for me, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other for main/reserve entanglement. Since it is often impossible to determine exactly what's happening back there (killed PC? PC in burble? pin stuck? container open and bag stuck in tray? bridle misroute?) I recommend people always cut away when there's anything out, because it's easier to made the anything vs nothing out decision than the PC in tow vs. anything else decision.

-bill von


DanG  (D 22351)

Mar 14, 2002, 1:46 PM
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Re: Safety Day "discussions" - Decide on the groun [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that good riser covers are a must, but I'm confused on one point. It seems to me that once you deploy your reserve, the reserve risers are going to force open the riser covers no matter what. This then leaves the main risers flapping around, which is what people seem to be worried about.

Personally, if I have a pilot chute in tow, I'm going to go straight for the reserve ripcord. I don't think cutting away first makes sense. If the main bag falls out, I'll cut away then if I can't contain it.

- Dan G



Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 14, 2002, 2:05 PM
Post #11 of 11 (818 views)
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Re: Safety Day "discussions" - Decide on the groun [In reply to] Can't Post

>It seems to me that once you deploy your reserve, the reserve risers are going to force open the riser covers no matter what.

Depends on the rig. On a "standard" Racer, for example, the velcro main riser covers are off on one side, and are not forced open by the reserve risers.

-bill von



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