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Falling out of a rig

 

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Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Mar 9, 2002, 3:28 PM
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Falling out of a rig Can't Post

This is taken from Rec. and ParachuteHistory.com.

I tried it and in a fully tightened harness was able to pull it off with no effort and never had to loosen a strap. If you look in the March 2002 Parachutist on page 14, the person in the sit is in the ideal position to have this happen to them. Try the experiment and let Jan know your results.


>Hello all - I am conducting an informal survey & ask for your help.
>
> Background Information
>
> On June 5, 1983 a jumper fell partially out of his rig. He was involved
> in a crw wrap. After the cutaway, his foot momentarily hung up on the
> other guy's canopy. He was upsidedown. He shook loose of the canopy and
> that's when he fell out (backwards) of his harness. The leg straps were
> caught around his knees. The horizontals were up under his arm pits. The
> jumper pulled his reserve & fortunately landed safely in water.
>
> The rig he had was a Racer. The Racer at that time had adjustable side
> horizontals (as did most rigs of that era).
>
> Sometime this year, a tandem passenger almost fell out backwards of her
> harness (Sigma tandem). The harness was NOT properly adjusted.
>
> In the 1990's rigs have become very small in relation to a jumper's
> body. Many people jump articulated harnesses.
>
> Harnesses in the 60s & 70s had a horizontal back strap very similar to
> the one in the Sigma tandem harness.
> http://www.relativeworkshop.com/tandem/ssh6.htm
>
> Other harnesses had a sling. This prevented the leg straps from dropping
> down to your knees.
>
> On most of today's rigs there is no separate horizontal back strap. The
> lower part of the main pack tray provides the function of 'preventing a
> jumper from falling out backwards'.
>
> On articulated harnesses and shorter containers the bottom of the main
> pack tray might be high - above the waist of a jumper. An example is on
> the cover of Jan 2002 Skydiving. The jumper in red in the foreground has
> a rig that looks like he could fall out backwards under the right
> conditions. If that jumper had a hard, premature main opening right then
> - it looks like it's possible for him to fall out.
>
> The question I have is can you to fall out of your rig backwards with
> the main out of the pack tray?
>
> I asked one H&C mfg this when articulated harnesses first came out. He
> gave me an answer along the lines 'that will never happen' As far as I
> know, there have not been any tests (formal or informal) to see how easy
> it is to fall out backwards.
>
> On articulated harnesses, the angle between the horizontals & leg straps
> can be quite large.
>
> The Experiment
>
> With the main out of the pack tray and your leg and chest straps
> fastened as you have them for a jump, try to back out of your rig.
> You'll have to bend at the waist & pull the reserve up, over your head.
> And you might have to 'help' the leg straps move towards your knees.
> This little bit of help would be provided by a premature opening on a
> real jump.
>
> The question you want to answer is - can I fall out backwards??
> The degree of difficulty is not as important in this informal survey.
>
> Re - the little bungy cross connector between leg straps.
> That bungy & binding tape can easily break during a premature opening if
> you were in a sitfly position.
> The fact that jumpers have these is indicative that we are already
> noticing that we are falling out of our rigs.
>
> Please try this little experiment & let me know how it went. It's easy
> to do just after landing. I think you will be surprised. I certainly
> was.



Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


mountainman  (A License)

Mar 9, 2002, 4:03 PM
Post #2 of 65 (6724 views)
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Quote:
Re - the little bungy cross connector between leg straps.
> That bungy & binding tape can easily break during a premature opening if
> you were in a sitfly position.
> The fact that jumpers have these is indicative that we are already
> noticing that we are falling out of our rigs.
Quote:

The reason I hear that we get those is so that the leg straps don't slip down a bit and rip the skin off our legs on openings. They don't slide down far enough to fall off without them. That is what I have found.

Also, I tried the experiment and I could not get my rig off. When it is tightened up normally, it is not able to slide down far enough on my legs for me to slip out.

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Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Mar 9, 2002, 4:54 PM
Post #3 of 65 (6712 views)
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Re: Falling out of a rig [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you position the leg straps like the jumper in the picture? Down around your knees in a flast sit/ VRW stable position? If you look at the picture the leg strap is at his knees, not under his body. On page 15 the girl in the upper right corner has the start of the same situation. Looking back at other issues shows a tone of pictured that are in the same situation.

I've had my straps fall in freefall and on opening the canopy went spinning on my, My entire body weight was suspended on the legstarp that was up near my chest. Not a situation I ever want to get into again.

The bungees are there more to keep the leg straps from doing exactly what mine had did. But they are easy to break or come unsewed. They keep the leg straps under the jumper and dont let them slide so much.

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


mountainman  (A License)

Mar 10, 2002, 2:21 PM
Post #4 of 65 (6624 views)
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In reply to:
Did you position the leg straps like the jumper in the picture? Down around your knees in a flast sit/ VRW stable position?
Yeah. When your legs are bent in the sit position, the straps easily go forward to your knees, but they do not go down against gravity. Also, with the bend at the waist and at the knees, it doesn't slide off. The legs would have to be almost completely straight and I would have to bend VERY far at the waist for the rig to be able to slide off.

In reply to:
My entire body weight was suspended on the legstarp that was up near my chest.
How in the hell did you get your leg strap up around your chest? I actually got my rig back out and put it on and can not figure out how you possible got your legstrap up near your chest. Please explain.

In reply to:
But they are easy to break or come unsewed. They keep the leg straps under the jumper and dont let them slide so much.
That is what I said. I said that they are there so when you go from sit to belly to pull time, they aren't down around your knees and pull the skin/hair off your legs. Are you saying something else that I'm missing?

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Premier phreezone  (D License)
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Mar 10, 2002, 6:10 PM
Post #5 of 65 (6603 views)
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In reply to:
When your legs are bent in the sit position, the straps easily go forward to your knees, but they do not go down against gravity.
Right... but in a Sit the wind can keep them up at your knees. Thats the key, having the straps under the knees.

In reply to:
How in the hell did you get your leg strap up around your chest? I actually got my rig back out and put it on and can not figure out how you possible got your legstrap up near your chest. Please explain.
Easily, the strap was caught under my knee and I just pulled with a knee on my chest since I was gettin a little on the low side and wanted to get under canopy. Just picture opening in a half stag position.Once I was able to get the weight off the leg, no more problems..... I got in that position by flying one leg in a stand an the other tucked up near my chest working on freestyle on a jump. I did'nt pay attention to my gear till it got to break off. The legstrap on the tucked leg had worked its way up to under that knee.

What I'm saying is that even with bungees/strap, they can break if you have a premature in a sit with the legstraps too low and you can still fall out backwards.

If anyone doubts how easy this is to do, I can make a short video of it when I get home this weekend.

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Mar 10, 2002, 10:38 PM
Post #6 of 65 (6585 views)
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Re: Falling out of a rig [In reply to] Can't Post

Alright... I got a second and since my main was cutaway anyways to flex the 3 rings anyways.....

Check out this video. Granted I had to strugle for a second since I was applying pressure from a wierd angle and the chest strap caught on my nose. In the case of a premature opening in a sit neither of these would be an issue. This is much harder to do with the main in the pack tray but I did it with only a bit more struggling. I'm thinking that with smaller framed people this will be easier to do then larger framed.

The video is me showing all straps are tightened and ready to jump. Then I move the leg straps forward like the slide in a sit. Then I flip the rig off, step out of it and lift it by the still fastened chest strap. I rotate it and show the legstraps are still fastened and it looks like a ready to jump rig minus the main and jumper. Then since I'm too lazy to edit it shows me grabing the remost and stoping the filming Tongue

Got questions or comments on the video, post them. I'd like to see what others think of the possibily of this happening in freefall with a premature opening.

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


mwthomsen  (C 31605)

Mar 11, 2002, 6:31 AM
Post #7 of 65 (6539 views)
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Thanks for the video, That didn't look like it took much effort at all.

Mike



spy38w

Mar 11, 2002, 6:42 AM
Post #8 of 65 (6532 views)
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In reply to:
Thanks for the video, That didn't look like it took much effort at all.
No kidding, I never even thought of the possibilty of that happening.



Premier Remster  (C License)

Mar 11, 2002, 7:51 AM
Post #9 of 65 (6516 views)
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Phree: have you sent this clip to some rig manufaturers to get their feedback?

Remster
Muff 914


geoff

Mar 11, 2002, 8:07 AM
Post #10 of 65 (6514 views)
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Your chest strap looks looser than most FFers would tolerate. Don't know if that makes a big difference. Still serious food for thought though.

Geoff



PhillyKev

Mar 11, 2002, 9:07 AM
Post #11 of 65 (6500 views)
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Whoa, got chills watching that. Never even thought of that possibility. Note to self..make sure I don't have a premature deployment while in a sit.

cielos azules y cerveza fra

-Kevin


Premier phreezone  (D License)
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Mar 11, 2002, 9:18 AM
Post #12 of 65 (6497 views)
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The key to the entire thing is having the leg straps slide forward. If the straps stay in place, this can not happen. I just screwed around with the video last night real quick to prove that I'm not crazy.... Wink People here are the only ones that have seen it yet Smile
Why the chest strap seems loose is because I've got a type 8 webbing chest strap doubeled over. The back was fairly tight while the front portion was loose and flappy. I have seen way more then one jumper jump with thier strap way looser then what mine was there.
Having the chest strap really,really tight lead to me getting stuck half way through the roll out and made from some really funny, but deleted video along with some new 4 letter words...

Having a really loose chest strap also let me step out of the top of my rig if I let the rig slide off my sholders.

To sum it up... having a REALLY tight chest strap and keeping the leg straps in place seems like it would take care of most the problems I could create on the ground... but as we all know, in the air all ground rules are tossed out.

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


mountainman  (A License)

Mar 11, 2002, 10:40 AM
Post #13 of 65 (6473 views)
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To me, it just seems that the rig is going against physics in the way you are pulling it off. I guess when I see that, I see the opening pulling on your rig in several different directions at the same time (pulling your leg straps to original position and yourself being pulled out the bottom as you did it).

It seems to me that the way you portray it in your video, there is absolutely no force pulling up on the leg straps which is false. Also, when you deploy (at least when I deploy), the lift that the PC gives and the Dbag/canopy being pulled out would put you a little bit into a better position as not to still be leaning back. Another reason is that most people would be pushing down hard with the legs during a sit (right?) and that would keep your knee from being up around your chest, as you said before.

That is my take on it from looking at it many times.

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Premier phreezone  (D License)
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Mar 11, 2002, 11:09 AM
Post #14 of 65 (6462 views)
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In reply to:
Another reason is that most people would be pushing down hard with the legs during a sit (right?) and that would keep your knee from being up around your chest, as you said before.
Not always, just look at the Mirage ad and you can see the leg straps are in the same exact position mine were in and the person is in freefall. Freestyle tucks put your legs in relly weird positions all the time. Leaning forward in a sit gets you in a similar, but less severe situation (Common sit problem). A sudden, unexpected premature deployment does'nt give you time to get into a better position. The leg straps don't have to be move by the opening sequence. In fact as soon as the main leaves they become more flexible then they were with the main in the container.
After opening in a sit a few times on purpose, I can tell you that once the PC is out you will not feel line stretch, it is spread over such a short amount, all you feel is the inflation.

Picture the rig staying still and suspended while a body rolls out backwards. Its quite possible and If I remember too next time I can hook my rig up to something I'll do it suspended and get it on video.

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


mountainman  (A License)

Mar 11, 2002, 1:31 PM
Post #15 of 65 (6440 views)
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Sorry, Phree. I put my rig on again and tried it just like you did, but it just would not come off. I had my leg straps at jump tightness and my chest strap was normal also (not very tight). I have found that the only way it would come off is if my legs were straight out and I was bent VERY sharply at the waist. (This isn't even possible for me.)

If I get into a sit position like you did on your movie, I can get it to move up on my back, but not nearly come off. Maybe it is because ours were made to our measurements. If that is it, everyone better buy a new rig. (I recommend the Wings. Smile)

I would like to see you try it again with the chest strap tightened up some more. It just looked too loose.

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Premier phreezone  (D License)
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Mar 11, 2002, 1:48 PM
Post #16 of 65 (6432 views)
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Brandon, was your main out of the packtray? Thats needed to make it just slide right off. The main pack tray is acting as a stiffner and does not give like an empty pack tray.

The ringed harness was custom remade for me 1 inch in height and 15 pounds ago (Its a tight fit now Wink)

I'm thinking that the smaller framed jumpers are going to have this be easier then the larger framed jumpers. Also ringed harness's should be easier to get the flex in the laterals required for this to happen.

I'll redo it once I get off work, but having the chest strap really, really tight does'nt let me apply the leverage to the rig needed to get it all the way off my back cleanly. It gets stuck a few times while I have to reposition grips to get it cleared. A opening canopy will not allow as low or as slow of forces as what you do on the ground.

I'm not saying that everyone will fall out at any point, but with certian criteria (body type, leg straps forward, premature opening in a sit) the conditions are possible for this to happen. Its more of a food for thought exercise... Smile

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


skycat  (D 25740)

Mar 11, 2002, 2:02 PM
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btw....smaller jumpers such as myself have certain things done to the rig to make them fit, such has narrowed and shortened yokes and much shorter laterals. Even with my main out of the container I can feel the backpad against my lower back. If I have the chest strap tight my rig can quite literally not move on my back. With nothing in the container I still can't move my hip rings far enough forward to get my leg straps in that possition, about the closest is mid upper-thigh.

On the other hand as flexible as I am I've actually had problems on my belly where i'm arched and next thing I know my leg strap is down around my knee(s). I never would have gotten bungee on my legstraps if it wasn't for that issues. Sit flying my legstraps never moved more than just under my butt, on my belly, they tried to come off. That was/is alot more scary to me, anything could happen from serious brusing, a broken leg/knee, or even sliding right out of the rig as the opening shock forced me to hyper arch.



xybe  (Student)

Mar 11, 2002, 2:13 PM
Post #18 of 65 (6418 views)
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In reply to:
I'm thinking that the smaller framed jumpers are going to have this be easier then the larger framed jumpers
Hah! after all, there ARE advantages to being a belly to earth fat bastard after all!

But seriously, I think this subject deserves further discussion.

Still shedding whuffo-ness
Check out the Hardcore Whuffo pages


mountainman  (A License)

Mar 11, 2002, 4:02 PM
Post #19 of 65 (6391 views)
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In reply to:
Brandon, was your main out of the packtray?
Yeah....each of the times. I'm not going to post anymore here about this because I've told you my findings, but what are other people finding? And where are the expert riggers? Lets get your opinions. Smile

JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook.


skycat  (D 25740)

Mar 11, 2002, 5:19 PM
Post #20 of 65 (6374 views)
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it's ok Mountainman I couldn't do it either, my lateral wouldn't go past my rib cage and after alot of work, got stuck right about breast level and wouldn't budge any farther, and I couldn't get my legstraps down that far. Actually I had to do a lot of work to get in that possition, but then again the distance between my chest strap and my laterals is the length of my handles.

btw....this harness was made for me and does fit perfectly.



Craig

Mar 11, 2002, 6:37 PM
Post #21 of 65 (6361 views)
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I have a Mirage which is made to my measurements. Without the main in the pack tray I was able to slide out like Eric on my first try with minimal effort. I can't comment on any findings with the main in the pack tray since it is in a box getting ready to be shipped for new steering lines befor the season gets in full swing. No doubt I will try the expierment with the main in the container when it gets back in a week or so. BTW, I do have a problem with my leg straps sliding towards my knees in a sit, I am going to get a bungee strap on the straps since I need a repack anyhow. Just FYI I have hip rings on my rig.

Craig

Craig



Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Mar 11, 2002, 7:07 PM
Post #22 of 65 (6349 views)
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Alright..... i revideoed it with the Chest strap really tight and the leg straps to the point where they probally would hurt on opening if they were in the right place. as you can See the tighter chest strap did cause me more problems getting out, but not much. In the VRW stable position, you would be in the perfect postion to have the leg straps move on you if you do not have a bungee or strap in place. Being tucked up in a ball or style tuck would also be just about the only realistic position that this situation could occur in.

Based on this, I'm installing a bungee the next time I'm at the loft. After looking at my harness for probally 20 minutes I've 1) found dirt that needed cleaned and 2) figured out the body type most likly to possibly have issues. A tall, light frame with wide sholders/thick neck and a thin chest.

In my mind's eye it looks like the longer the MLW's are, the more you can move in the harness once the legstraps get moved. I'm going to follow up and email some people to get their opinions too...
Thanks for all the feedback so far...

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


skycat  (D 25740)

Mar 11, 2002, 7:09 PM
Post #23 of 65 (6349 views)
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I wonder if container size makes any difference, I have a tiny mirage an MXS with hip rings, it is just slightly narrower than my back and and about the same width as my waist. My old reflex doesn't have the reserve packed so I can't test out a larger container. If I can get Derek to pack it this week I'll try it this weekend, if I still can't do it, then the reason you guys are able to slip out has to do with the length of the main lift webbing and the fact that the yoke on your containers is wider allowing the harness to spread.



polarbear  (D 25673)

Mar 13, 2002, 6:18 PM
Post #24 of 65 (6227 views)
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I went home and tried it last night, and my rig came right off. I jump a brand new mirage, custome made for me, with full ringed harness, a bum strap; all my straps were VERY tight; and I am a "fat bastard" (well, sort of-maybe chubby bastard). It took very little effort. I agree that the key seems to be having the leg straps forward on your legs...it would not come off with out the leg straps forward. Another thought I had is that during a premature opening, the force will only be input to the rig through the risers. Therefore, when you pull the rig off, make sure you are using ONLY the risers. I did it this way and it was no problem to slip out.

I am not sure if this would happen in freefall...I have never had my leg straps move at all in freefall, and that is both on my new mirage and on my old Talon which was NOT made for me and DID NOT have a bum strap. It does seem interesting to me that premature openings while in a sit must have already happened to people hundreds of times; yet I do not know of anyone falling out of their harness from it.

In any case, I consider this a serious issue. I really would like to hear what harness/container manufacturers would have to say. I, for one, request that the phenomenon (and possibly your video) be reported to H/C manufacturers and that they give a response..



(This post was edited by polarbear on Mar 13, 2002, 9:19 PM)


MarkM  (C 35089)

Mar 13, 2002, 7:54 PM
Post #25 of 65 (6216 views)
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Thanks for making the vids Phree.



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