Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Vigil Ground Misfire

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next page Last page  View All

696GrocuttT  (C 103116)

Apr 13, 2004, 3:02 AM
Post #76 of 136 (1640 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Jimbo] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
This, to me anyhow, supports the static theory. Sounds to me as though static electricity is activating the cutter only. This would almost have to be the case since the units that fired were not powered on.

I don't think the cutter is being activated directly by the static (I wouldn't have thought there would be enough energy in a static discharge to do that). It's more likely that the static is effecting the firing circuitry. This is still possible when the unit is "off" as the unit will never to completely off unless you unplug the batteries, as the power switch isn't a hard power off. It will probably just put the unit into an extremely low power hibernate state, where some areas of the system are still powered.


Dave1216  (B 104343)

Apr 13, 2004, 3:20 AM
Post #77 of 136 (1635 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PhreeZone] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The whole no maintence thing does'nt impress me. Issues like this are going to require all units to be pulled and shipped in for minor updates that should be able to be addressed on a factory maintence schedule.

Software updates (as i understand it) can be done using the rigger software, so can be updated without a repack even being required!

If it is a hardware update, then you send the device back to them when required. Why send it back on the "off chance" there may be a update. What happens if Airtec make an update a few weeks after your service? Do you have to wait another 4 years?


Dave1216  (B 104343)

Apr 13, 2004, 3:25 AM
Post #78 of 136 (1634 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Chrisky] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Having Vigil say all the nice hellos and freefall speeds etc makes it actually more complicated than an AAD needs to be...

I disagree, Cypres does datalog as does the Vigil. The only difference is the data is viewable on the Vigil.

Would you prefer it if cypres didn't store data, serial number or other such 'useless' info?

Both units have an interface, only one is infra-red and the other is direct connection.


Chrisky

Apr 13, 2004, 4:12 AM
Post #79 of 136 (1627 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Dave1216] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

If it is an issue needing an immediate hardware change (like the added shielding in some of the first units, but that was rigger fixable), there is a mandatory service bulletin.

Still to my knowledge, as small as it may be, so far there have not been any mandatory hardware replacements affecting ALL Cypres. There were issues with single units/batches due to bad batches of subcontractors etc, but never all units affected by design.

AAD can be glad this came up so early in the process.

And on a properly working unit, there shouldn't be any issues with software updates in the first place.


Chrisky

Apr 13, 2004, 4:53 AM
Post #80 of 136 (1617 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Dave1216] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Point taken. Still, you have the three different setup modes on the Vigil. This adds some steps to the software, on setting up as well as on firing.
The posibility to read out the data via infrared also adds hardware.
This is all additional stuff. Now it can be argued if the software is such an issue, or the additional hardware. I think every additional factor to "as simple as possible" makes it more complicated.
It will prove if it is just as safe.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Apr 13, 2004, 6:50 AM
Post #81 of 136 (1598 views)
Shortcut
Re: [696GrocuttT] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

With the circuits needing a complete redesign you have to wonder how much testing went into the new design before they released it as the solution to the issue. I hope that they have been testing and simulating for months with the new design... but with the issue only being found a few weeks ago I highly doubt that its got more then a few weeks testing at max.

I also wonder what this is doing to the finances of the company. There is'nt exactly a large market for AAD's so any cut into the bottom line has to hurt.


indiana  (D License)

Apr 14, 2004, 4:55 AM
Post #82 of 136 (1534 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Rdutch] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree fully!

Vigil's service bulletin is nice but as mentioned in this forum several times is the bulletin only about the ground misfires and does it not explain the in air activation in Deland (although I also start to doubt about the one in Z. Hills)
Furthermore first they say that the misfire in France were experimental units and now it is a Beta Unit (USPA)

The in air activations do give me more concern than the ones on the ground and for these is there so far no explanation!

I know from a confidential source (I live in Belgium) that the company has currently no skydivers at the production line. This decision of being save to continue to jump is made by whuffo’s! This is a bit to much testjumping I asked for! I might be a dummy I am not a crash test dummy.Pirate
Billy


USPA  (D 81812)

Apr 14, 2004, 8:40 AM
Post #83 of 136 (1485 views)
Shortcut
Re: [indiana] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Furthermore first they say that the misfire in France were experimental units and now it is a Beta Unit
Beta=experimental!
Quote:
that the company has currently no skydivers at the production line. This decision of being save to continue to jump is made by whuffo’s
Laugh You have never seen who is sewing your reserve have you? I would advise you to check out PD's production line, maybe the most respectable line in de community.


indiana  (D License)

Apr 14, 2004, 10:18 AM
Post #84 of 136 (1460 views)
Shortcut
Re: [USPA] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote
Furthermore first they say that the misfire in France were experimental units and now it is a Beta Unit

Beta=experimental!

True, however, the company itself came in August itself forward with a statement that the Vigils used by the French team were experimental and were significantly different from the ¡°normal¡± Beta that could be bought by the more experienced skydiver.

Quote
that the company has currently no skydivers at the production line. This decision of being save to continue to jump is made by whuffo¨ˆs

You have never seen who is sewing your reserve have you? I would advise you to check out PD's production line, maybe the most respectable line in de community.

Again true, and I think I quoted something wrong. I meant that the decision -makers are no-skydivers, no riggers and are in the world of parachuting new (those who had the knowledge left, trust me my sources are reliable). I doubt that at PD for the decisions concerning safety of their equipment skydivers and/or riggers are not consulted¡­Smile


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 14, 2004, 5:03 PM
Post #85 of 136 (1416 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Rdutch] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

>My beleif exactly, so changing out circuit boards on units will have
>what effect on the cutter causing the fire?

Many possible reasons. Adding a grounded guard band, going from 0402 to 0805 parts (better at blocking static) adding clamp diodes to the firing output, adding an active (or passive) clamp on the output - all these things can affect ESD susceptibility. This is an issue with people who use electrically fired blasting caps, which is why shorting the wires together until ready for firing is a common practice.

We test most of our stuff to the old IEC 61000-4-2 severity level 4, which is the highest there is. 8000 volts nominal, 15,000 volts peak, standard human body model. (A later revision of the IEC spec took peak to 30,000 volts.) We do both contact and air for our handheld stuff. It can be hard to come up with a very robust ESD design.

(another poster said)
>I know from a confidential source (I live in Belgium) that the
>company has currently no skydivers at the production line.

Thank god! Being good at 4-way has nothing to do with being able to set up automated PWB assembly lines.


indiana  (D License)

Apr 15, 2004, 2:30 AM
Post #86 of 136 (1369 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

quote
Thank god! Being good at 4-way has nothing to do with being able to set up automated PWB assembly lines.

I think I answered this one before. I talked about decision making. If someone say it is safe to use (after several mid-air activations!!!!) I doubt seriously their knowledge or at least their awareness.

Concerning safety is my motto still: better to strict than to loose. A statement safe to use it happens only on the ground is nonsense, especially after what happened in Deland! A scary statement!

And yes you are right, you better keep the 4-way guys m from the assembly lineLaugh

And I’m not the only one with doubts. Please check also the post from Mike (Chuting Star Rigging Loft) and the Rand And Rave link:

http://www.chutingstar.com/riggerrantandrave.html


meatbomb  (D 100967)

Apr 15, 2004, 2:43 AM
Post #87 of 136 (1364 views)
Shortcut
Re: [indiana] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
(after several mid-air activations!!!!)

OK, I call bullshit...There has been one (unconfirmed in person on here) anomalous in-air activation of a production Vigil. There has also been one Vigil Save (at around 1100ft), roughly the same height as a Cypres would have fired, which would have been called a Cypres Save...Please feel free to point out the other mid-air activations of production Vigils I appear to be missing.


indiana  (D License)

Apr 15, 2004, 4:43 AM
Post #88 of 136 (1351 views)
Shortcut
Re: [meatbomb] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

These are the incidents so far:

Mid air activation:
French team during training in GAP (± 2500 ft)
Skydiver in Deland (± 3000 ft)
Skydiver in Z. hills (just under 2000 and not 1100 ft!)

Ground activation
The unit of the skydiver of the Z.hills incident fired its newly installed cutter during repack (coincidence?)

2 units in Gap misfired. (The same dropzone where was also another mid air activation). ( I agree this can be based solely upon where the majority of Vigils is in use)

I think it is safe to conclude that there is a bit more going on than just a problem on the ground we do not have to worry about…


Premier Remster  (C License)

Apr 15, 2004, 5:08 AM
Post #89 of 136 (1344 views)
Shortcut
Re: [indiana] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
French team during training in GAP (± 2500 ft)

This was not a production unit; it was still a Beta one.


indiana  (D License)

Apr 15, 2004, 8:50 AM
Post #90 of 136 (1316 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Remster] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

  Quote
French team during training in GAP (± 2500 ft)


This was not a production unit; it was still a Beta one.

Remster
Muff 914

The Beta unit IS the standard production unit. The pronunciation Beta was only used as a marketing tool. The Beta units as were delivered from May 2003 are the same as the production units delivered up to March 26.
Wink


meatbomb  (D 100967)

Apr 15, 2004, 9:17 AM
Post #91 of 136 (1313 views)
Shortcut
Re: [indiana] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Skydiver in Z. hills (just under 2000 and not 1100 ft!)

Are you saying Vigil is lying?

Quote:
In December 03, a Vigil fire occurred in Zephyrhills, Florida, USA, due to a jumper activating his main parachute at 1400 ft. His main was open at 1100 ft. After analyzing the Vigil’s data from that jump, we were able to see that the Vigil worked correctly in activating the cutter at 1100 ft. In PRO mode, the Vigil is set to fire at 800 ft but it can activate up to 300 ft higher during a low pull. This fact is due to the changing barometric pressure around the rig during an opening sequence. It is advised to activate a main parachute by 1800 ft, especially with an AAD in your rig.

During repack of this jumper’s reserve, the newly replaced Vigil cutter was activated on the ground. Upon analysis, it was observed that one of the two battery wires was pinched between the Vigil’s metallic housing cases. We believe that this created a short circuit and caused the cutter to fire. The battery wires on the first one hundred production units were long enough to need to be stowed away carefully. Before this incident occurred, the battery wires had already been shortened so that they no longer need special attention.


indiana  (D License)

Apr 15, 2004, 11:03 AM
Post #92 of 136 (1287 views)
Shortcut
Re: [meatbomb] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Lying is such a dirty word. The skydiver in question said he pulled at 2200ft (that 800 ft higher that the 1400 ft mentioned here right?). I have no reason to doubt him. This means that at 1100 ft his speed was still high enough to activate. I know that is what an AAD is supposed to do, but with the Deland and French story (and that their altitude was well above the activation altitude of 1100ft) it is safe to conclude that the problem will not be solved with shielding against static electricity.


USPA  (D 81812)

Apr 15, 2004, 11:05 AM
Post #93 of 136 (1284 views)
Shortcut
Re: [indiana] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
French team during training in GAP (± 2500 ft)
Experimental unit, never released to public. USPA called it a beta unit, which it was, technicly speaking (beta=experimental). It was NOT a beta unit as sold by ViGIL. You are confusing 2 sources.

Quote:
Skydiver in Deland (± 3000 ft)
This is the only misfire I have heard of so far, on a production vigil. And I've only read about it at Dz.com. I have yet to see an official report. I am waiting for it though.

Quote:
Skydiver in Z. hills (just under 2000 and not 1100 ft!)
What do you know, what the rest of the world doesn't know? I've only seen this height mentioned in skydiving magazine, and several sources have contradicted it since. But maybe you've ordered the CREEP also?

Quote:
2 units in Gap misfired.
These were ground fires, adresses with this SB.

Which activations have I missed?

You're insinuation the Vigil is dangerous isn't based on facts. You seem very uninformed. There have been ground misfires, air misfires and late fires (not life saving) of cypres units also. I still think cypres is a relative safe device.


Rdutch  (D 24618)

Apr 15, 2004, 7:50 PM
Post #94 of 136 (1233 views)
Shortcut
Re: [USPA] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Skydiver in Deland (± 3000 ft)
This is the only misfire I have heard of so far, on a production vigil. And I've only read about it at Dz.com. I have yet to see an official report. I am waiting for it though.
In reply to:

Me too (waiting for an official report), fortunately I saw the incedent, I talked to the girl and her boyfriend who was jumping with her, the same day, and I heard the report that vigil got from the unit. I will quote that, and freely state that it DID happen, why vigil hasnt addressed it I have no clue. Also Vigil sent the unit out to be tested by a different company and the unit was found to be in %100 working order, this scares me, because if you have a problem then you can fix it. Also it isnt the only misfire there has been a few of them recently check it out, even vigil talks about them on their website.

Quote:
Skydiver in Z. hills (just under 2000 and not 1100 ft!)
What do you know, what the rest of the world doesn't know? I've only seen this height mentioned in skydiving magazine, and several sources have contradicted it since. But maybe you've ordered the CREEP also?

Steve Weiss is his name, he fully claims he didnt pull that low, he also claims he never stated those low numbers. Also people that saw the incedent back him up.

Quote:
2 units in Gap misfired.
These were ground fires, adresses with this SB.

Which activations have I missed?
In reply to:

How about the ground fire by the rigger that packed the rig of the first unit that misfired? Terry Pike is a well reputed rigger and is well known for being carefull, he disputes the whole wire pinch claim and based on the simularities of all the fires, he might have a valid claim.
Quote:
Quote:
You're insinuation the Vigil is dangerous isn't based on facts. You seem very uninformed. There have been ground misfires, air misfires and late fires (not life saving) of cypres units also. I still think cypres is a relative safe device.
In reply to:

Facts? What part of the service bullitens and the history arent you reading? What part about the many firings in such a short time doesnt concern you? What part of the questions and answers Vigil hasnt addressed and for some reason leaves out when talking about the problems? Most of all what part about the fact that a girl is lucky her main didnt entangle with her reserve when her VIGIL fired at above 3000 feet when her main was deploying? How is that for dangerous.
Do you beleive everything that a company claims is true when the company has everything to loose by admitting the truth?


USPA  (D 81812)

Apr 16, 2004, 1:38 AM
Post #95 of 136 (1194 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Rdutch] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Do you beleive everything that a company claims is true when the company has everything to loose by admitting the truth?
I give them the benefit of the doubt, since they have everything to loose by lying.


Ron

Apr 16, 2004, 6:03 AM
Post #96 of 136 (1170 views)
Shortcut
Re: [USPA] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I give them the benefit of the doubt, since they have everything to loose by lying.

you mean like when Glide Path said the NOVA was OK to jump?


indiana  (D License)

Apr 16, 2004, 8:25 AM
Post #97 of 136 (1142 views)
Shortcut
Re: [USPA] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, the reply of Ray answers most, except:

Quote
French team during training in GAP (¨d 2500 ft)

Experimental unit, never released to public. USPA called it a beta unit, which it was, technicly speaking (beta=experimental). It was NOT a beta unit as sold by ViGIL. You are confusing 2 sources.

I am not confusing two sources. The Beta units of the French team were ¡°standard¡± Beta units, not different in any way of those offered to us.

Indiana


Shark  (D 24499)

Apr 16, 2004, 9:32 AM
Post #98 of 136 (1121 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I give them the benefit of the doubt, since they have everything to loose by lying.

you mean like when Glide Path said the NOVA was OK to jump?

I don't recall too many companies endorsing it, nor the US & French national teams testing and utilizing it.


Ron

Apr 16, 2004, 10:44 AM
Post #99 of 136 (1108 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Shark] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I give them the benefit of the doubt, since they have everything to loose by lying.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


you mean like when Glide Path said the NOVA was OK to jump?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I don't recall too many companies endorsing it, nor the US & French national teams testing and utilizing it.

Oh, so if TWO companies and a team that is GIVEN them say its ok then it is? Im sorry I missed that part.


jmfreefly  (D License)

Apr 16, 2004, 12:05 PM
Post #100 of 136 (1176 views)
Shortcut
Re: [indiana] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am not confusing two sources. The Beta units of the French team were ¡°standard¡± Beta units, not different in any way of those offered to us.

What is the source of this information? Vigil stated explicitly that it was a pre-US-release beta unit and that the software version was different.

The units offered to US 'beta testers' are exactly equivalent to US production units (indicated by Kim from Vigil to me via email). I don't have any information about the non-US beta units.


Are you claiming that the hardware was the same, or that it was exactly the same (and Vigil is misinforming the public)?

j


First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Gear and Rigging

 


Search for (options)