Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
When Should The Thought Of Swooping.....

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

rgoper  (C 32349)

Mar 8, 2002, 9:00 PM
Post #1 of 59 (3992 views)
Shortcut
When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... Can't Post

...........Enter your mind? after 100, 150 jumps? after your second "downsize?" i'm curious what the consesus is, i don't swoop, because i know in my mind (i'm 43, 4 downsizes, 300+ jumps) that i am not knowledgable enough to do it. i've always been curious, as to what it is that is the "key" element in the decision making process of "when" it's time to swoop. is it peer pressure? is it trying to be kewel? i'm NOT bashing swooping, just trying to understand, when, and what makes sky divers decide when it's time. i'm under the impression that a lot of sky divers make the decision too soon, and the statistics back me up. everyone...........listen..............BE SAFE!

Richard

"The Next Mistake You Make, Could Be Your Last"





hooknswoop  (D License)

Mar 8, 2002, 9:13 PM
Post #2 of 59 (3965 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Richard- Excellent question and it should generate some pretty good discussion. When people ask me to teach them how to hook turn, I look for 2 critera. First they have to have the canopy skills to handle higher perfomance landings. Second and more importantly, good judgement. They must be able to evaluate their abilities honestly, self-critic their performance, make the right decsion, under pressure, every time. They must be willing to apply themselves and spend the time and effort to get it right. The hot shot, nothing can get me, I know what I am doing and I am very good 18 year old, no fear t-shirt wearing, low pulling feak is an accident waiting to happen. I won't teach them because they won't learn.

Hook turns are not for everyone. A bunch of jumps is not a garentee of being capable and ready to learn hook turns. I think if I had to start all over, I would never be able to down size to the canopy that I have, or get away w/ zero injuries. It takes a big commintment to do it right. My thoughts anyway.

Hook



rgoper  (C 32349)

Mar 8, 2002, 9:22 PM
Post #3 of 59 (3959 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

hook:

you know WHAT i'm talking about, and WHY i'm bringing it up in this forum, i'm trying to get others to think, and save there own lives. and you are one of the two i was referring to earlier in the "reserve re-pack" thread. thanks for all you do! "it's all about living" a profound statement, made by a very learned individual early in my skydiving career, my FIRST jump, actually. see ya this weekend...hopefully, if the north wind doesn't make a fool of itself with the forcasted 30+ mph gusts. Take Care........

Richard

"Gravity Is My Friend"





rgoper  (C 32349)

Mar 8, 2002, 10:05 PM
Post #4 of 59 (3947 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

i've noticed that this particular post has gone with more "views" than "responses" i know each, and everyone of you have an opinion on this subject.....let's hear it, unless it's defamatory...............even if it is, let's hear it.........

Richard

"Gravity Is My Friend"





Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Mar 8, 2002, 11:16 PM
Post #5 of 59 (3943 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Every post will have more views then responces...

Its never too early to start learning. The skills learned in swooping can save you if you do too low of a turn, land downwind or a ton of other times. The key is learning. You must be willing to be your own worst judge and open to critism from everyone if you want to learn any thing.

Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush


flyhi  (D License)

Mar 9, 2002, 5:17 AM
Post #6 of 59 (3928 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Agree with Phree. Basic straight-in canopy skills can help make a slightly windy day a little easier for anyone to handle. And the best time to learn these skills is not when you need them. Look at Clay. He is swooping on a 190. If he had waited until he downsized, it is doubtful he would get the same benefit at the same risk. INAE, but in my opinion, I would say learn the basics as soon as you are comfortable with the canopy you are jumping. And pick your pace. It's all about pace.

Just take it one day at a time, like the drunks do.
flyhi
Cool


polarbear  (D 25673)

Mar 9, 2002, 12:45 PM
Post #7 of 59 (3894 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

I would agree with most of the things said in this forum thus far...you should be comfortable and profficient on the canopy you are on doing straight in landings, you should posess good judgement, you must be patient and willing to progress slowly, and you must be willing to learn. I would add three things:
1)Look for EVERY opportunity to learn from others (especially the highly experienced/profficient). You must also think about what others tell you...not everyone out there who swoops is really as good as they think they are.

2)Start swooping on a fairly large canopy-learn the techniques when mistakes don't cost as much and only downsize when you are TOTALLY bored with your current canopy.

3)(I believe the most important) make sure that you really want to swoop. I have some people who seem to swoop because their friends think it is cool...not because they really want to swoop. Do it because it is fun and because YOU get a thrill out of it...not for any other reason. Constantly weigh the benefits you experience from swooping vs. the risk, and make a decision. If it seems that the benefits aren't worth the risk, maybe you should stop. There is no shame in flying conservatively.

One final note; once you start down the "dark side", forever will it dominate your destiny. You will almost CERTAINLY get injured eventually if you swoop long enough. It may just be a sprained ankle, but it will happen. Be prepared to accept that.



diverds  (D 17797)

Mar 9, 2002, 1:17 PM
Post #8 of 59 (3889 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You will almost CERTAINLY get injured eventually if you swoop long enough.
Just to keep things in perspective, you could say the same thing about skydiving in general, or skiing, or snowboarding, or skateboarding, or bike riding, or petting small furry animals. There is an element of risk in many activities we do, and if you do them long enough the chance of an injury increases. Do your best to be safe, listen to others input, and always be open to learn.


-Dave
"Gas...Undercarriage...Mixture...Prop...Beer"
Cool


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Mar 9, 2002, 1:48 PM
Post #9 of 59 (3882 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

An excellent post; thank you! Smile
In reply to:
2)Start swooping on a fairly large canopy-learn the techniques when mistakes don't cost as much and only downsize when you are TOTALLY bored with your current canopy.
This bears repeating... over and over and over.... Learn to fly a bigger canopy aggressively BEFORE you downsize. If you aren't flying aggressively, if you aren't TOTALLY bored with everything your current canopy can do, there's no need to go any smaller.

pull and flare,
lisa
--
I'll be in the bar... you'll find me...


hooknswoop  (D License)

Mar 9, 2002, 2:14 PM
Post #10 of 59 (3878 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have had long conversations w/ several people concerning the "ideal" wingloading and canopy type to start to learn to hook turn under.

At one end of the spectrum is the Skytruck 300. It is very slow and forgiving, but it has very short recovery arc and does not instill the skills neccesary for a small elliptical.

At the other end of the spectrum is the Super Rocket 90. It is very fast and unforgiving, but has a very long recovery arc.

Let's say, for arguments sake, that in order to plane a cnopy out across the ground after a hook turn, you need to be w/ in 10% of the ideal altitude at the start of the hook turn. Let's also say the Skytruck has a 50 ft recovery arc and the Super Rocket has 500 ft recovery arc.

So to properly hook the Skytruck you have to start the hook at between 45 ft and 55 ft, a 10 ft "window". Any higher and it will plane out above the ground, slow down then surge, giving you a poor landing. Any lower and well, call 911 or at least get out the band-aids.

To properly hook the Super Rocket, you have to iniate the hook at between 450ft and 550ft, a 100 ft window. Same thing for too high and most likely worse for too low.

So, where does that leave us? The shorter the recovery arc, the harder it is to hit the "window", but the bigger the recovery arc, the faster the pilot is going. It does seem to me that it takes about the same amount of time from start to finish to hook a big canopy as it does a small canopy, the smaller one just goes through more altitude and covers more ground, so there doesn't seem to be more time to figure things out and adjust under larger canopys.

The longer the recovery arc, the safer you are, but the speeds are too much for someone trying to learn. Too short of a recovery arc and it is too difficult to hit the right altitude and the skills don't carryover to small canopys very well.

So, somewhere between the Skytruck 300 and the Super Rocket 90, lies the ideal wingloading and canopy to learn how to perform hook turns. I believe it to be somwhere between 1.5 and 1.7 under a 0-P fully elliptical. This gives a good trade off between margin size of the window you can iniate the hook at and not too fast. Of course be very proficient w/ the canopy before starting to learn hook turns.

It would scare the hell out of me to hook a large F-111 canopy.

Hook



markbaur  (D 6108)

Mar 9, 2002, 5:35 PM
Post #11 of 59 (3863 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So to properly hook the Skytruck you have to start the hook at between 45 ft and 55 ft, a 10 ft "window". Any higher and it will plane out above the ground, slow down then surge, giving you a poor landing. Any lower and well, call 911 or at least get out the band-aids.

To properly hook the Super Rocket, you have to iniate the hook at between 450ft and 550ft, a 100 ft window. Same thing for too high and most likely worse for too low.
With respect to high initiation on either canopy, I respectfully disagree. Both give acceptable, though not spectacular, landings straight in, so it's okay to finish the turn and find yourself too high for a surf. If you have to hook to get an acceptable landing, I'd encourage you to fill out as much of the Accident/Incident Report Form as possible, to save your S&TA some work later.

With respect to low turn initiation, the real problem is fixation on the direction of landing rather than constantly evaluating if the altitude is sufficient to continue the turn. The prudent swooper ensures that even a cross-wind landing is obstacle-free, and so is prepared at any time to stop the turn and begin the surf-flare.

If you are going to land cross-wind or downwind, the Super Rocket is generally more forgiving than the Sky Truck. In cross-wind situations, the faster you go, the smaller a correction you need to zero out the cross-wind component of your ground path.

The time of surf is independent of direction. The Super Rocket allows more time to adjust the descent rate, including during downwind landings, where the primary problem (once you've adapted to the breathtaking ground speed!) is maintaining balance when your canopy stops flying and you still have lots of horizontal momentum.

If you've been practicing your Super Rocket downwind landings, a hook initiated to low results just in cross-wind landing -- an opportunity to practice carving.

I guess I'd like to see a skydiver equipped with a canopy he'd feel comfortable making cross-wind landings with before I'd encourage him to try swooping. And I think the kind of jumper who needs to judge if he's between 45 and 55 feet above the ground is unlikely to be successfully swoop more than once or twice -- a matter of experience and equipment.

Mark




hooknswoop  (D License)

Mar 9, 2002, 6:15 PM
Post #12 of 59 (3858 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

"With respect to high initiation on either canopy, I respectfully disagree. Both give acceptable, though not spectacular, landings straight in, so it's okay to finish the turn and find yourself too high for a surf. If you have to hook to get an acceptable landing, I'd encourage you to fill out as much of the Accident/Incident Report Form as possible, to save your S&TA some work later."

A canopy that planes out 15ft above the ground after hook turn will not finish w/ a nice landing. It will slow to below it's normal "full flight" airspeed, then surge foward in an attempt to acclerate back to its' "full flight" airspeed. But at only 15 ft, it will surge towards the ground, so now you are under a canopy w/ little airspedd diving towards the ground. Your only option is to flare fully and accept a "ankle burner" of a landing since the canopy does not have the airspedd the flare completely, similar to an accuracy approach, but under a canopy not designed for accuracy.

I never said i have to hook to get an acceptable landing. In fact I have attempted in the past to end the myth that small canopys have to be hooked to land.

I'll let the Accident/Incident commet go.

"With respect to low turn initiation, the real problem is fixation on the direction of landing rather than constantly evaluating if the altitude is sufficient to continue the turn. The prudent swooper ensures that even a cross-wind landing is obstacle-free, and so is prepared at any time to stop the turn and begin the surf-flare."

Once you initiate the turn,regardless of the amount of heading change, you are swung out from under the canopy. You are now commited to lose a certain amount of altitde before pendulming back underneath the canopy.

If you are going to land cross-wind or downwind, the Super Rocket is generally more forgiving than the Sky Truck. In cross-wind situations, the faster you go, the smaller a correction you need to zero out the cross-wind component of your ground path.

"The time of surf is independent of direction. The Super Rocket allows more time to adjust the descent rate, including during downwind landings, where the primary problem (once you've adapted to the breathtaking ground speed!) is maintaining balance when your canopy stops flying and you still have lots of horizontal momentum."

I never said downwind/crosswind/into the wind swoops affect the amount of time of the landing. I can hook my Safire 189 and I can hook my VX-60. I think that from the time I initiate the hook to touching the ground is about the same on both canopys. The VX covers a lot more ground, but goes a lot faster. So I don't put much credit on the theory that larger canop[ys give the pilot more time to make corrections during the hook.

"If you've been practicing your Super Rocket downwind landings, a hook initiated to low results just in cross-wind landing -- an opportunity to practice carving."

I feel that a 90 or a 180 loses the same amount of altitude in a hook. I get swung out just as far w/ a 90 or a 180 degree hook and therefore use the same amount of altitude to recover fro the hook.

"I guess I'd like to see a skydiver equipped with a canopy he'd feel comfortable making cross-wind landings with before I'd encourage him to try swooping. And I think the kind of jumper who needs to judge if he's between 45 and 55 feet above the ground is unlikely to be successfully swoop more than once or twice -- a matter of experience and equipment."

Before I'll teach someone hook turns I want them to compoletely comfortable and prficent in all realms of canopy flight, fast, slow, risers, toggles, etc. The point of my 45-55 ft judging scenaro was to demonstrate that large canopys are not ideally suited for learning hook turns.

Hook




lazerq3  (C -34113)

Mar 9, 2002, 9:17 PM
Post #13 of 59 (3839 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I guess I'll add my .02 .....I currnetly have 71 jumps and am awaiting a new main, downsizing form a 170 f-111 to hornet 150. Right now I am not looking to start doing any 180+ swoops but I am wanting to get into the front riser approaches, then get nto the 90 degree and so on. I know this sounds really quick but I am in Know rush to get to the 360's. I'm starting off really small, been already picking the brains at our DZ and am ready to learn. I know its an added risk but this is what I want to learn.......we have a REALLY big landing area so other traffic will not be a problem plus we are a cessna DZ so you never really have a crowded space . anyway theres my .02!!!!

jason



freeflyguy  (D 24207)

Mar 9, 2002, 10:18 PM
Post #14 of 59 (3833 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

I might as well chime in.

As far as the original question goes. My thoughts, It's never to early to start to learn to swoop.

I'll explain that. As far as I am concerned, all landings are the same. Might sound weird, but what I am really talking about is the fact that on every landing, you make your final turn, set up, flare at the right time, finish your flair, and land. Whether that Final turn is a 270 intended to plane out for a nice surf on a small canopy, or it is the Final leg on a large canopy, it all ends the same. With proper technique in the entire landing sequence.

Go check out a big DZ, people that dont want to learn to "swoop" land like drunk geese all over the place. It is scary. If you do learn, as a student, and then as you downsize how to land properly, you will allready know how to surf and in essence, the beginings of how to Swoop.

There are many that will never do a 180 or 270 to final, that is fine, but they should still be able to land there canopy properly. Which, on anything ZP loaded over 1.1 will include at least a little swoop. The higher the wing loading, the longer the surf. Straight in landings included.

As far as learning to "hook" ( I don't much care for the term, in this context), that is a different subject, but I do disagree. If you want to learn to hook turn, or better said, learn to build speed for you landing, begin learning on the canopy you are on. I was swooping the pond on a sabre at 1.1 . I would never tell anybody to wait until a wing loading of 1.6 to learn a high speed landing technique.

I do agree with what was said about a higher wingloading leaving a larger margin for error, sort of. I like that about my XAOS, I can turn way high, and still make it plane out on the ground, where I want it too. But on the other hand, that time I spent with a wingloading of 1.1 trying to dial it in is Invaluable in how I fly today. Start now, if you are going to do it. Do not downsize first, then start. Pain will soon follow, if you subscribe to that theory.

j



hooknswoop  (D License)

Mar 10, 2002, 9:23 AM
Post #15 of 59 (3810 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

So would you suggest that someone learn how to hok turn under a Fury 220?

I did not suggest that someone downsize to a 1.5-1.7 wingloading and go for it. Downsize as you are ready and put off hook turns until you reach a wingloading of 1.5-1.7 (and elliptical) and are completely competent at that wingloading. I believe this gives the best trade-off between speed and recovery arc.

Hook



Premier skymonkeyone  (D 12501)

Mar 10, 2002, 11:09 AM
Post #16 of 59 (3797 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ladies and gentlemen, there is absolutely no requirement to swoop whatsoever. It is just something that some people do because we want to add another element to our skydive. For some people, just the act of jumping out of a plane is more than enough fun, they hate the canopy ride and want to get down in as safe a manner as possible. Others really like to cut up under canopy and do CRW or parabatics. Others still get maximum satisfaction in that final turn and their grace of swoop. Nowadays, I get the most satisfaction from whatever I am doing in freefall, and what I do on that last turn. Under canopy I don't do anything nutty at all. I generally open at 3000 feet, though sometimes higher just so I am not rushed in my pre-swoop preparation. I don't make any crazy spirals to beat everyone down, and I don't enjoy "twitchy" canopies at all.

Swooping is simply another form of expression. Do not try to do it just because of peer pressure. If it does not appeal to you don't feel bad at all. All I would ask though, is that if you are not swooping please do not land down "the beer line" or whatever the lane of choice is at your dropzone. Those of us who do swoop do our best to stay out of the way of the heavy traffic, which at my dropzone includes a ton of students on radios. We teach them to stay well away from the beer line and we teach all of our spectators the same.

Chuck

My webpage HERE


alan  (D 17868)

Mar 10, 2002, 11:12 AM
Post #17 of 59 (3796 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm starting off really small, been already picking the brains at our DZ and am ready to learn.
At the risk of sounding arrogant, I'm going to comment on this. I don't know what DZ you jump at or any of the people you jump with, but, that being said, be careful during your quest to learn. I've been around for a few years now and have been to a number of DZs. There are a lot of peple at the DZ who may APPEAR to know what they are talking about, but few actually do. Hell, just look at some of the questions and answers you see in these forums. There are only a handful that really know what they are talking about. Others just pass on misconceptions, myths, rumors and even just plain old wrong information......even some who are very experienced. I just had a conversation yesterday with a friend about this. He's in that 200 to 400 jump range. That seems like a lot of jumps to many people, especially the newer ones. Now don't get me wrong, I've never been an advocate of using jump numbers alone to indicate someone's skill or knowledge, but they can give a relative idea of experience. But, we both agreed that it seems when many of us get to that range, we start getting very confident and an exaggerated perception of our abilities. We want to share our knowledge and the newer people tend to seek us out because they see and hear us often. The peoblem is, few jumpers at that level have the Skill, Knowledge, AND Experience to be teaching or giving sound advice.

If you are going to skydive (more than once), you need to know how to fly a canopy. Period. There is no getting around that. Therefore, you need to know how to fly. None of us starts out as an expert pilot and none of us will ever know everything there is to know. But, we need to know more than what we are learning now. Some steps have been taken to improve our knowledge of canopy flight, but each and everyone of us needs to take the responsibility for ourselves and make the effort to learn more about the basic principles of aerodynamics and flight. I think it was billvon, quite some time ago, that suggested we all get out to a local flight school and take a few introductory flight lessons. What a great investment that would be for many of us! Someone else, I think in an article in Parachutist or Skydiving a while back, suggested taking a senior rigger's course, not necessarily to become a rigger, but to learn more about your equipment! I learned much as a young man building and flying model airplanes. I took that base and learned more as a student pilot. Now, I have taken flight lessons in UL aircraft.

I read and learn as much as I can about the theory of flight. I go to the DZ and try to apply it. Don't go out and just do the came canopy flight over and over. I've said it before and I'll repeat it, it does not do you any good to have 1000 jumps if the last 900 are just a repeat of the first 100. Challenge yourselves. Work on building new skills and practice them. Don't "waste" a jump. Have a plan for every jump that will help you become a better canopy pilot. I can remeber when I used to JM a lot of SL students. I followed out whenever I could. There were those around the DZ that laughed, said it wasn't worth the pack job, or said I was just trying to build jump numbers. Fair enough.......BUT, I earned a PRO rating at just under 600 jumps....on a Jedei 136 @ about 1.6 at the time. I could take ANY canopy on the DZ and stand up in the circle on any given day, not just when the conditions were good. I could stand up a Tandem in the circle under a SET 400 on one jump and then drop in a Sabre 170 on the next. I could put a Manta in it on a gusty windy day, then do it with the Jedei on a hot, no wind day. Now, I can land an 89 VX @2.5 downwind on a hot day........standing up.

Why? Because I read, I studied and I put into practice what I was learning. And, I made my share of mistakes. I like to think that none of them was fatal because I took an orderly, progressive approach to learning and I tried to learn on EVERY jump.

I apologize for the rant. You CAN and SHOULD learn alot at the DZ. You can and should learn a lot here in the forums at Dropzone.com. You can and should use a variety of resources for learning. What I'm saying is be careful who you learn from. That can be difficult, but watch and listen. After some time you will begin to know. Do people SUPPORT what they say? Do other respected sources and references support what they are saying? Do your homework. I'll use one of my pet peeves as an example. The person who continually is making claims of 1000' snivels or 1200' openings. Be very careful of ANY advice or information you get from that person. 1000' and 1200' openings are very uncommon and most of us would consider that type of opening as a streamer. I'm not saying they don't happen and I'm not saying the person is lying. I'm saying we should be cautious of such information, don't take it or anything at face value. I've dicussed it with several manufacturers. Rarely can they substantiate any of these claims when someone sends the canopy back because of it. They all agree an 800' opening is a long one. I've done video of many openings. Six seconds is a long one and in several cases, the jumpers SWORE they were 8 to 10 seconds. Watch the video...........the time can be displayed.

I didn't mean to get off topic, I just wanted to use it as an illustration. Be careful and each of us must take it upon ourselves to learn. Challenge yourself to learn/master a new skill under canopy on your next jump. When you have mastered one canopy, try another. And don't assume that because space and traffic are not a concern at your DZ that they are not a concern. It has been said here before, quite often, what happens when you go to a boogie or new/bigger DZ? Did you prepare for that? Are you prepared? Have you learned and practiced the needed skills? Do you even know what they are? I'm not trying to attack you , or anyone personally. I'm just trying to point out that WHAT you learn is what is really important. Be selective of what you learn and who you learn it from. Sorry, I get like then whenever I learn of a fatality.......it's in a different thread.

alan


rgoper  (C 32349)

Mar 10, 2002, 4:57 PM
Post #18 of 59 (3775 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Fellow sky divers:

listen to these words from a learned coleague, he speaks with wisdom, and truth.

Richard

"Gravity Is My Friend"





rhino  (D 22500)

Mar 10, 2002, 6:54 PM
Post #19 of 59 (3764 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hip Hip Hooray!!

Good advise...

Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!

http://www.aahit.com


danger  (D 549)

Mar 11, 2002, 10:41 AM
Post #20 of 59 (3714 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Danger



MrHixxx  (D 24144)

Mar 11, 2002, 3:49 PM
Post #21 of 59 (3670 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ultimately, it is about desire and a realistic assessment of your abilities.

I became interested in high performance canopy flight the same way I became interested in high performance motorcycles... I get pleasure from the sense of speed and Gs. I am simply put together such that I enjoy it, the experience gives me a buzz. Was peer pressure and issue? No, because it is generally frowned upon at my dz. Further, at 35 with a family I don't really have anyone to impress, especially at the dz (that's what makes it such a wonderful place to be). But, I don't skydive and swoop to be popular, I just enjoy it.

My abilities. First I had to develop my own comfort level and interest. Then, I talked to my peers that were into high performance canopy flight. I talked to several manufactures about the proper equipment. Asked endless questions about the smart way to learn and execute manuevers. Now I still ask questions and constantly evaluate my performance. There is always more to know... Maintain humble attitude about your abilities, learning and maintaining situational awareness in the sky.

Hope this helps, Hixxx

"Sous ma tub, Dr. Suess ma tub" Crazy


diverds  (D 17797)

Mar 11, 2002, 5:03 PM
Post #22 of 59 (3661 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't skydive and swoop to be popular
It could also be said that you don't really skydive or swoop period...depending on your definition of the two. Shocked
Just kidding. Not really. No I am kidding. Haha...im dead serious. No joking...NOT.


-Dave
"Gas...Undercarriage...Mixture...Prop...Beer"
Cool


polarbear  (D 25673)

Mar 11, 2002, 8:17 PM
Post #23 of 59 (3638 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In response to a previous comment made about 1.5-1.7 being the proper wingloading on which to hook, I must disagree. Many of the world class, highly experienced canopy swoopers out there learned on "biggies". In fact, many of them swooped in the 1.0-1.1 range for hundreds of jumps. I myself am swooping at 1.3 on a 170 and find that to be possible, thrilling, and perfectly reasonable. I certainly don't have to start a turn low to the ground...I do a 180 front riser carve from 400 ft.

Perhaps you meant real, true "hook" turning, meaning a sharp, abrupt turn with the pilot swinging out from underneath the canopy and getting the pendulum effect. But even then, there are canopies out there that can have a recovery arc of a couple of hundred feet at lower wingloadings. And in any case, I would never suggest that a beginning swooper start with a true "hook" turn. In my opinion, that sort of thing needs to be done only by truly experienced pilots.

Carving front riser turns and straight front riser dives can be done on basically any canopy that has low enough front riser pressure and is stable when front risering. This sort of thing, on a larger canopy, can allow the pilot to learn to deal with higher-than-normal-speeds, how to judge the flare, how to plan the swoop so that the lane is clear of obstacles and outs are available, and all of the other aspects involved with high-speed approaches, all with a higher degree of forgiveness than a 1.5-1.7 wingloading can allow.

Of course, it is true that some canopies would be too big for real pratical swooping value. But most people flying true "skytrucks" (lower than 1.0 wingloading?) are either students or extremely low-time jumpers, or people who are not really interested in swooping. I still say, get on a canopy that you are comfortable and profficient with straight in landings and learn to make it go faster. Keep going until you can't make it swoop any farther/faster. Then, go ahead and consider something smaller.





Hooknswoop  (D License)

Mar 11, 2002, 9:05 PM
Post #24 of 59 (3625 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that front riser carves at lower wingloadings are ok, because the recovery arc is as much a factor w/ a carving turn. I think carving even a large canopy isn't that dangerous because you are not commited to penduluming back underneath the canopy nearly as much as a hard front riser to the double fronts max speed hook.

I have front risered a bunch of canopys and at less than 1.5 wingloading I don't feel comfortable w/ the risk level of a max dive hook to landing. The start altitude window is small and if you are a tad high, the canopy planes out level w/ the ground w/o any toggle input, slows down to less than normal full flight and then dives into the ground trying to regain airspeed. This leaves in a low altitude, w/ little airspeed to trade for flare. I have had my Safire 189 climb w/o toggle input after a riser hook turn resulting in a solid landing because I had to sink it in at the end.

So, in my opinion, learning high performance landings should start, if at all, at a 1.5-1.7 wingloading, w/ straight in front riser approaches, working up to carving, etc. If they are used to normal straight in at that wingloading, it won't take too long to get used to the higher double front straight in approach, and then they are ready to move to a 90 degree carving approach. Then I would recommend moving to 180's, then to more of a rapid 180. Nice and slow, of course.

I am not saying you are wrong, just that this is my opinion, take it for what it is worth :-)

Hook



Premier Remster  (C License)

Mar 12, 2002, 3:54 AM
Post #25 of 59 (3597 views)
Shortcut
Re: When Should The Thought Of Swooping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

This entire discussion shows to me that people make a 1 to 1 association between swooping and hooking.

You dont need to do sharp riser or toggle inputs (ie hooks) to swoop, even at the competitor level...

My understanding was that most swoop competitors were now using more carving turns then sharp hooks.... Chuck, can you comment?

Remster
Muff 914


First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving Disciplines : Swooping and Canopy Control

 


Search for (options)