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Vigil Ground Misfire

 

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Liemberg  (Student)

Apr 8, 2004, 5:26 AM
Post #51 of 136 (3012 views)
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Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There was a fire in DeLand.....
That was at 3,000 feet.

Since you implicitly infer that there are more things wrong than the people at Vigil are willing to admit it would be nice if you could come forward with the particulars of this incident or rephrase it as:

"I heard there was a fire in Deland... supposedly at 3,000 feet."


Ron

Apr 8, 2004, 6:00 AM
Post #52 of 136 (2998 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Since you implicitly infer that there are more things wrong than the people at Vigil are willing to admit it would be nice if you could come forward with the particulars of this incident or rephrase it as:

"I heard there was a fire in Deland... supposedly at 3,000 feet."

This has been talked about on here before...Its not a supposed fire it WAS a fire.

http://www.dropzone.com/...i?post=928743#928743

The person I got my info from I trust very much. But it is not listed in the document from them?


All of the issues I have HEARD about.

A fire on the French 4way team. (Beta unit.)
Quote:
During this testing period (June 2003) we had our first incident on a sponsored Beta unit that was being tested by the French FS 4-way team

A low pull fire and a ground fire that was later said to be a wire problem. http://www.dropzone.com/...i?post=916354#916354


3 ground fires:
Quote:
In March 2004, we had three ground misfires in the USA and in Gap, France. After analysing the French misfires (and by visiting the site) we noted very high electrostatic discharges. Both the French and US misfires in March happened during the repack of the main on the ground.

And a battery issue:
Quote:
Another issue that came to light in December, 2003 is that a very small batch of the early units may have a shorter battery life than expected. This problem was due to using too high of a soldering temperature on the shielding cover. This only affects the power saver filter (which extends the life of the battery) only and has no effect on the functionality of the Vigil to cut the reserve loop when necessary. The only problem that may arise is that the message (BAT LOW) would come on before the 4-year mark, meaning the battery has to be replaced earlier than expected (this is under warranty).

I would like to know what the deal was on the fire in Deland....Its safe to say I will not be buying one anytime soon.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Apr 8, 2004, 6:49 AM
Post #53 of 136 (2974 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

>"I heard there was a fire in Deland... supposedly at 3,000 feet."

Then count two people down on this one. I have someone that told me about this that I trust very much on these issues. 3000 feet and out of the blue, POP! I've also heard that static was blamed on this one...

Here is a question I have... is the unit reading any of these ground fires as actual fires? Or is it not even noticing that the cutter has fired?


Liemberg  (Student)

Apr 8, 2004, 7:22 AM
Post #54 of 136 (2964 views)
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Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I would like to know what the deal was on the fire in Deland...

Don't get me wrong, so would I since Vigil only mentions the fire in Z'hills, that one being a low pull / and the unit had worked as advertised.

How big is Florida BTW? Smile
(From a certain perspective Vigil and me are practically neighbors...)

Phreezone: I don't know. I do have the feeling though that while they are 'on the ball' with their product they don't follow the DZ.com forums as intensively as some of us do.
They are EXPLICIT in that the firing due to the static problem does not in any way affect the rest of the instrument.
Beware of packing in static environment but keep using yours until replacement is their gospel.

As anyone can imagine that replacement task must be quite a job since it is on top of the normal production.

(And yes, I have been on the phone with the man in Bruxelles this morning...)


rjf98  (D 23732)

Apr 8, 2004, 7:29 AM
Post #55 of 136 (2961 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Phree:
I have only heard "I know someone who knows the person this happened to" on ths misfire.

Do you think it is possible that these are the same incident?

Can you come up with anymore information? Can the DZO or the S&TA from the DZ comment or write a letter stating the particulars from the case?

I'm not a Vigil appologist by any means, I just want to know solid facts about the misfire, and I know someone who knows the guy this happend to isn't fact.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Apr 8, 2004, 8:36 AM
Post #56 of 136 (2939 views)
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Re: [rjf98] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

I would love to start saying names of who told me things... but breaking confidence would probally get me kicked out of the loop in the future. I was just talking 2 weeks ago at the DZ to the rigger I'm studying under about potential static issues with the Vigil and I was laughed out of the loft. Well this just shows that sometimes underground info is right.

I can say that the fire at 3000 feet happened to a girl at Deland and that as soon as they landed they took the unit to VigilUSA for testing to figure out what happened. Same Incident you are thinking of Ron?


murrays  (C 1285)

Apr 8, 2004, 10:59 AM
Post #57 of 136 (2907 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can say that the fire at 3000 feet happened to a girl at Deland and that as soon as they landed they took the unit to VigilUSA for testing to figure out what happened. Same Incident you are thinking of Ron?

I had this incident confirmed to me in an e-mail from Kim. I too am waiting to get the skinny on that incident.

As far as static problems go...this bothers me because I live in a very dry, static-y part of the world. Every time I get out of my car I get a "snap" when I touch the door to close it. At times, you can hear your canopy crackle when you smooth it out. Not something I want to have to worry about.


Shark  (D 24499)

Apr 8, 2004, 11:05 AM
Post #58 of 136 (2903 views)
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Re: [Chrisky] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Any word on that from Airtec yet? They're usually quite fast..

Yep, that's why they have not given me an update on my Cypres. They've had it since January.

On a related note, I was on a 4 way skydive and witnessed a Cypres misfire at 4,000'. The unit was sent back and replaced with a new one. No mention of what may have caused it. Chris (Albatross) was also on that skydive. This is reality.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Apr 8, 2004, 11:33 AM
Post #59 of 136 (2892 views)
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Re: [Shark] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought Chris mentioned a long time ago that they got back to him and they discoved some thing was broke and they changed that part going forward. At least thats my memory of the events...

And have you followed up with SSK or Airtec? I know SSK has always been fast to answer my questions when I have them.


Rdutch  (D 24618)

Apr 8, 2004, 4:40 PM
Post #60 of 136 (2846 views)
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Re: [rjf98] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

I can say the Misfire at 3000 ft did happen, I was there, I drank a beer with the girl an hour after while she calmed down. I would love to know the answer for that one. If Airtec Cypress 2's have a problem with static caused by the fabric rubbing together at a high speed caused by deployment shorting out the displays, how come static from packing on the ground is a problem, but not static from deployments be a problem for the Vigil? How come the 2 units on the ground fired when they werent turned on? How come the unit that fired at 3000ft didn't register a fire? I know Kim reads this forum and I wish that she would address these concerns. But I.M.O If you own a vigil, I would think about removing it until it is replaced, there is too many questions and not enough answers. Remember in skydiving if something fucks up, the worst thing that can happen is you Die! Actually thats wrong, the worst thing is you could die and kill someone else also.


(This post was edited by Rdutch on Apr 8, 2004, 4:40 PM)


Jimbo  (D License)

Apr 11, 2004, 8:50 AM
Post #61 of 136 (2788 views)
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Re: [Rdutch] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Pure speculation here, but what the hell.

Quote:
How come the 2 units on the ground fired when they werent turned on?

This, to me anyhow, supports the static theory. Sounds to me as though static electricity is activating the cutter only. This would almost have to be the case since the units that fired were not powered on.

Quote:
How come the unit that fired at 3000ft didn't register a fire?

Again, if we've got a static issue (even Airtec seems to acknowledge that this might be a problem) then I can understand how this (misfire, I assume on opening) could happen.

As far as the Vigil unit not registering the activation, probably the unit only registers that it started the firing sequence, but doesn't receive data back from the cutter. Could it be modified to receive data back from the cutter? Probably, but it's going to increase the due to the additional sensors.

I've got hope for the Vigil, but no plans to rush out and buy one. My Cypres goes EOL in a few years, I'll consider a Vigil at that time.

-
Jim


(This post was edited by Jimbo on Apr 11, 2004, 8:52 AM)


Rdutch  (D 24618)

Apr 11, 2004, 3:48 PM
Post #62 of 136 (2744 views)
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Re: [Jimbo] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How come the 2 units on the ground fired when they werent turned on?

This, to me anyhow, supports the static theory. Sounds to me as though static electricity is activating the cutter only. This would almost have to be the case since the units that fired were not powered on.

My beleif exactly, so changing out circuit boards on units will have what effect on the cutter causing the fire? Also why is it deemed perfectly safe by vigil for people to continue jumping the unit until it is replaced, and also here's the one that gets me, why do they claim that it can only happen when packing, when there was a fire in the air, and maybe quite possibly the first fire was from the same problem. That would be 2 in air firings.
The girl that had hers fire at +3000ft Vigil reported that the unit was tested and found to be in %100 working order, this scares me, it would be one thing if they found a problem, then they could fix it. Just saying the unit was found good, and then sales started again? I would think real hard and want a solid answer on to the problem and how it was fixed before I would think about jumping a rig with that system on it.

Also my belief in Vigil the company's credibility is dropping fast. My 2 cents.


jmfreefly  (D License)

Apr 12, 2004, 7:56 AM
Post #63 of 136 (2694 views)
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Re: [USPA] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Uhm, you never pay for batteries in a CypreS 2, so that's like giving a sigar from your own box.

Ha, that is a funny phrase.

They are sending cypress 1 batteries, not cypress 2's. Wink


Ron

Apr 12, 2004, 8:05 AM
Post #64 of 136 (2689 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can say that the fire at 3000 feet happened to a girl at Deland and that as soon as they landed they took the unit to VigilUSA for testing to figure out what happened. Same Incident you are thinking of Ron?

Same...And I can't tell me who said what since it was in confidence....And we all knw how people get around here and posting PM's.


BlueEyedMonster  (D 26880)

Apr 12, 2004, 8:16 AM
Post #65 of 136 (2688 views)
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Re: [scottjaco] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Static Electricity? please! While Static electricity can fry sensitive electronic components, I don't see how this can happen on an AAD. I have a technical background. While I'm not an expert, I know that the plastic display window helps shield static electricity as well as the hard outer casing on the display unit.

My computer (which I built) doesn't crash every time I slide it on the carpet out from under my desk.
I have not only had computers reboot after touching the wires in the back and giving it a static shock... I've also fried a network card doing it.

I live in a very dry area. I jumped my Vigil for the first time this weekend... I know perfect timing. It got put in the rig the day the service bulletin comes out. I just packed my main on my packing mat on the concrete, not on carpet. While I had my rig on, I received several static shocks two of them were enough to make me jump back. No misfires.

Vigil has come right out and is replacing the units. I am happy with their actions. No technology is perfect, and since the Cypress 2's had a static issue also--Neither AAD can claim perfection. ANYONE THAT BUYS A NEW AAD IS A GUINEA PIG. Both Cypress 2 and Vigil use new technology. I am going to stick to my Vigil because it still has a better display that gives me more information, and the issue is being handled very well by the mfg/dealer.


Ron

Apr 12, 2004, 11:37 AM
Post #66 of 136 (2647 views)
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Re: [BlueEyedMonster] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Vigil has come right out and is replacing the units.
I have not seen a release on the air fire in DeLand yet.

In reply to:
I am happy with their actions

I think they are trying...But I would like an offical report on the air fire in DeLand...This is a very possible saftey concern. Im not so upset about the ground fires...I mean it would really suck to have my rig just fire while I was packing it...But if the company paid for the cutter and the repack I would be upset, but not pissed. (I don't know if they are doing this, but I would like to think they are) I however would not jump one right now.

In reply to:
No technology is perfect, and since the Cypress 2's had a static issue also

Yep...However a fire vs a screen going blank is a big difference in my little book.

In reply to:
ANYONE THAT BUYS A NEW AAD IS A GUINEA PIG. Both Cypress 2 and Vigil use new technology

Which is why I wait for it to be old new tech...Before I buy it. Im not so into being a guinea pig when it could kill me.

In reply to:
I am going to stick to my Vigil because it still has a better display that gives me more information, and the issue is being handled very well by the mfg/dealer.

You are really willing to risk your life on a new toy for a cool display?

They might be handleing the issue well (And I have my doubts). But think about it...It's your life.

Just a thought..A saftey device that can kill you when it mals...is not so safe.


darkwing  (D 4164)

Apr 12, 2004, 11:54 AM
Post #67 of 136 (2637 views)
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Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You are really willing to risk your life on a new toy for a cool display?

They might be handling the issue well (And I have my doubts). But think about it...It's your life.

Note that a vigil and a cypres 2 are both new technology, so a purchaser doesn't have much choice. I'm glad I have a low time cypres 1.


MarkM  (C 35089)

Apr 12, 2004, 12:29 PM
Post #68 of 136 (2623 views)
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Re: [darkwing] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Note that a vigil and a cypres 2 are both new technology, so a purchaser doesn't have much choice. I'm glad I have a low time cypres 1.

Except that Airtek has over a decade in experience fielding a reliable AAD and the Cypres 2 is hardly a big change in technology from the Cypres 1.

I hope the Vigil ends up doing well, having 2 companies producing solid AADs should keep the both of them on their toes in an effort to keep us happy.


BlueEyedMonster  (D 26880)

Apr 12, 2004, 3:36 PM
Post #69 of 136 (2584 views)
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Re: [Ron] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
They might be handleing the issue well (And I have my doubts). But think about it...It's your life.

Just a thought..A saftey device that can kill you when it mals...is not so safe.

I'm not worried about getting killed by my spring loaded PC while I'm packing. What would worry me is if someone went in with a properly functioning Vigil. Everyone can yell "FIRE!" then.. but its a new product, and I believe tested very well. I expect minor glitches, and have seen nothing more than that.

As long as the issues are isolated and corrected, and the price tag is the same, I'll be the guinea pig. I'd much rather have an AAD that I don't have to go read the manual to figure out if the battery is good or make changes to. And, ya'll can get yours in a few years.

I was buying a new rig, and I chose the new technology that had the best features by far. Its more than a cool display. Its a USABLE display. I don' have to guess what everything means. It tells me.... and it tells me my freefall time and speed.

In addition, I believe the Cypres 2 has a little more new technology than many of you believe--Or their marketing department wants you to know. If it was the same thing with just a few changes... you wouldn't have seen the static issue they had either. Why did that suddenly happen? Why didn't their "experience" help them to foresee the static issue?

If nothing else, I still have a Cypres 1 thats just over a year old in the old rig with no main. If I need it in the next month or so, I have it. Otherwise Its getting traded in for a Vigil.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Apr 12, 2004, 7:03 PM
Post #70 of 136 (2554 views)
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Re: [BlueEyedMonster] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Alright... starting at the top, a spring loaded premature fire while freeflying or with someone in freefall above you can easly be fatal for you and others. The issue is not resolved or else the premature fire at 3000 feet would not have happened.

The Cypres2 battery code is simple. If it reads 0 you are fine, anything else is an error and it shuts off basically. If you can't take the time and energy to learn basic things about the gear that is saving your life all the time thats an issue to me.

Want to know your freefall time and speeds? Get a Protrack that can't kill you if its wrong.

The issue with the Cypres2's was a bad batch of boards that were more sensitive to the static then the normal boards were. Luckly it was only batch 3 or so in the production run so it was discovered early and the new/current material is at spec again. They knew of the static issues and had designed specs that would prevent it from being an issue but a batch of boards came in that failed that spec.

It took Airtec over 6 years to develop a working model that had all the issues worked out of it. Expect the Vigil to take just as long to debug. That puts the unit at a battery change before they get the issues worked out. The whole no maintence thing does'nt impress me. Issues like this are going to require all units to be pulled and shipped in for minor updates that should be able to be addressed on a factory maintence schedule.


BlueEyedMonster  (D 26880)

Apr 12, 2004, 8:48 PM
Post #71 of 136 (2540 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Alright... starting at the top, a spring loaded premature fire while freeflying or with someone in freefall above you can easly be fatal for you and others.

Agreed

Quote:
The issue is not resolved or else the premature fire at 3000 feet would not have happened.
I'll bet that person hasn't had the board replaced... so NO the problem with that one was not resolved.

Quote:
The Cypres2 battery code is simple. If it reads 0 you are fine
Sorry, I speak english, not binary

In reply to:
If you can't take the time and energy to learn basic things about the gear that is saving your life all the time thats an issue to me.
I don't buy products that are not as simple as they can be.

In reply to:
Want to know your freefall time and speeds? Get a Protrack that can't kill you if its wrong.
I have a pro dytter... why buy more equipment that isn't necessary?

Quote:
The issue with the Cypres 2's was a bad batch of boards that were more sensitive to the static then the normal boards were.
Funny that... problem with Vigils was boards that were sensitive to static.

In reply to:
It took Airtec over 6 years to develop a working model that had all the issues worked out of it.
Yup they didn't have the technology then like they do now. Vigil will be faster, just as the Cypres 2

In reply to:
all units to be pulled and shipped in for minor updates that should be able to be addressed on a factory maintence schedule.
Oh well. We have winter here... good time to do stuff like that.


(This post was edited by BlueEyedMonster on Apr 12, 2004, 9:59 PM)


GroundZero  (A 9044)

Apr 12, 2004, 10:21 PM
Post #72 of 136 (2520 views)
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Re: [riddler] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:

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Quote
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the plastic display window helps shield static electricity

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Hmm - if it is a static e problem, I doubt it has anything to do with the display unit. The units are boxes with two lines - one to the display/control unit and one to the cutter unit. I don't think that enough static would build on just the display window to travel through the entire unit and activate the cutter. It seems more likely that a static charge is building over the entire rig (dragging cordura and nylon on carpet), and transmitting through the nearest path to the cutter, which could be on the cutter unit itself, considering the metal cutter is right next to a metal grommet on the rig. That part should be well shielded, but enough static e can get through a lot of shielding.

Ed to add - maybe the next must-have skydiving gizmo will be a drag chain that hangs from your hip-ring and drags on the ground, like the ones that drag underneath semi trailers. That way you don't build up a charge that would fry all these nifty electronic devices (AADs, audibles, cameras) that skydivers are becoming so fond of. Maybe even a little alligator clip so you can clip onto the airframe while riding to altitude.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll probably get in trouble for this post, but here goes ... click!


Very well said.... (now get a haircut!)
hehehe


Chris


GroundZero  (A 9044)

Apr 12, 2004, 10:38 PM
Post #73 of 136 (2514 views)
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Re: [GroundZero] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

and i'm purchasing my VIGIL tomorrow....

Chris


Chrisky

Apr 13, 2004, 12:50 AM
Post #74 of 136 (2492 views)
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Re: [BlueEyedMonster] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Sorry, I speak english, not binary
There's only 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who don't.Wink
Take it as Zero for Zero errors if you need.
Quote:
I don't buy products that are not as simple as they can be.
Having Vigil say all the nice hellos and freefall speeds etc makes it actually more complicated than an AAD needs to be...

Quote:
Funny that... problem with Vigils was boards that were sensitive to static.
Not quite right, it was the circuit layout on the boards, not the board itself. They had to redesign the circuit layout to fix it.

In reply to:
Oh well. We have winter here... good time to do stuff like that.
Yep, but it's not quite the proclaimed not needed maintanance..

Hope they resolve that in-air-fire soon. Competition will help the market.


Ron

Apr 13, 2004, 2:43 AM
Post #75 of 136 (2485 views)
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Re: [BlueEyedMonster] Vigil Ground Misfire [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
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Quote
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The issue is not resolved or else the premature fire at 3000 feet would not have happened.

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I'll bet that person hasn't had the board replaced... so NO the problem with that one was not resolved.

Well the problem was that they didn't know it would happen...So there is one accident that could have been fatal...And that was before they knew this could happen...Now they know it could happen and I have still not heard anything about it yet. We know it DID happen...If it happened once, it can happen again....Do you want an AAD that could kill you?

In reply to:
Sorry, I speak english, not binary

Thats kinda lame..if it says "0"....you can jump..If it is not working, it does not turn on. Yes, it does not say "Hello", and does not track freefall speeds and jumps....But thats just added crap that you don't need in an AAD. They took a life saving device, and added crap to it. An AAD sould be easy to use (Both are) simple (Both are) buit well (both are) and above all reliable (only one so far).

In reply to:
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In Reply To
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If you can't take the time and energy to learn basic things about the gear that is saving your life all the time thats an issue to me.

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I don't buy products that are not as simple as they can be.

You want simple? Or do you want an AAD that makes expresso? Simple is a CYPRES...You bought the AAD that says "Hello" and tracks freefall time...All of which have nothing to do with an AAD. But you claim to want the simple product...I'll take reliable over seeing "Hello" when I turn it on everyday.

In reply to:
I have a pro dytter... why buy more equipment that isn't necessary?

Because a ProTrack wil not kill you if its wrong.

In reply to:
Funny that... problem with Vigils was boards that were sensitive to static.

Yeah, but the CYPRES static issue made it so you could not read the display...the Vigil fires..Twice now in freefall.

In reply to:
Oh well. We have winter here... good time to do stuff like that.

In FL winter is our busy season. And the whole not needeing maintenaunce was a big selling point. Now all Vigils made before X date have to go back.....I'd rather have an AAD I have to send off for a 4 year check than an AAD I have to send off casue its fucked up.


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