Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
reserve open in plane

 


cam  (C License)

Apr 10, 2001, 11:52 PM
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reserve open in plane Can't Post

this happened recently: we're almost on jump run in a cessna, no one obvious 'in charge' and someone's reserve opens, pilot chute out. oh yeah, there's no door on the plane. we get it under control, under the person wearing the rig, and he sits right at the back.
my question is: then what? should everyone ride the plane down? jump? i don't remember being told anything bout this on aff, but now think probly the 'right' thing to do is ride the plane down with him. but jus wondering...



maretus  (D License)

Apr 11, 2001, 2:17 AM
Post #2 of 23 (2700 views)
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I don't recall excatly what was said in basic training about situations like that but I'd prefer riding down in the plane. What makes your situation tricky is that there was no door in the Cessna. Had there been door, the only reasonable thing to do would of course have been shutting the door immediately and reopen it when the plane is down and safe and stopped. That situation of yours is potentially very dangerous situation. If the open reservePC gets out of the door and inflates, it propably means byebye for the whole plane and everybody in it.
So as a conclusion I'd think I'd sit down and ride down in the plane. If this was a real situation how did you act ?



Cacophony  (D 23912)

Apr 11, 2001, 8:01 AM
Post #3 of 23 (2670 views)
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I think that if there was no door, then everyone who is not part of or containing the reserve should exit, because if something does eventually happen then thats less people that could actually get hurt. I really don't know though, if I was there I might prefer riding down in the plane. Don't let the FAA hear about that no door stuff, that can't be good.

Safe landings,
Alex D-23912


Iflyme  (B 4421)

Apr 11, 2001, 8:15 AM
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Ya, I agree with Alex - get out while the getting is good... different story if there IS a door, though



Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Apr 11, 2001, 8:37 AM
Post #5 of 23 (2664 views)
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Re: reserve open in plane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
this happened recently: we're almost on jump run in a cessna, no one obvious 'in charge' and someone's reserve opens, pilot chute out. oh yeah, there's no door on the plane. we get it under control, under the person wearing the rig, and he sits right at the back.
my question is: then what? should everyone ride the plane down? jump? i don't remember being told anything bout this on aff, but now think probly the 'right' thing to do is ride the plane down with him. but jus wondering...
If there was no JM on board, ask the pilot what he wants you guys to do.. He may want everybody out that has good gear so that there are fewer people in the airplane, or he may want everybody there to kinda build a barrier around the person with a PC out.. I once had a jumper's main PC out, and I just had him remove the RSL, pull the cutaway handle(in case the PC got out somehow), and sit on the PC.. It was a spring loaded PC, so it was not feasible to just re-stow it as it would have been for a throw out..

Just remember - the pilot is the final authority.. If there is a JM on board, they will turn to the pilot for instructions.. If the pilot is not dealing with the situation, you're on your own.. Somebody has to take charge, though..

Just beware of one thing.. If the pilot is wearing a rig, and you tell him that a reserve PC is floating around the airplane, he may not even say goodbye on his way out the door.. Smile

Mike



miked10270  (D 10270)

Apr 11, 2001, 10:25 AM
Post #6 of 23 (2644 views)
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Hi there,

With a reserve PC out in the plane, grabbed & smothered, then the affected jumper & at least one other is staying in the 'plane. The "one other" is the person who's going to "cuddle up" behind the affected jumper, control his pack & make sure no other stuff falls out.

If it is practicable, other parachutists may exit provided that this does not involve moving the affected parachutist unneccessarily. This is NOT the time for moving around & pushing past a guy with an open reserve.

Let's face it guys (& gals), this is a somewhat tense situation (probably of the "Brown Tension" varietySmile) & any moving around & past an open reserve will only add complication to an already "complicated" situation.

Get the affected jumper away from the immediate area of the door, sit still, & "enjoy" the ride down.

Mike D10270.

PS. If the pilot decides to leave, then hope that the affected jumper knows how to fly! Everyone else goes with the pilot to get help!



Patkat  (C 31139)

Apr 11, 2001, 11:50 PM
Post #7 of 23 (2599 views)
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Re: reserve open in plane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Don't let the FAA hear about that no door stuff, that can't be good.
Actually, the rule used to be no door on jump planes at all. The powers that be felt that a door designed to open in flight might open on takeoff. If that were to happen on a small plane like a Cessna 182, the open door would act as a huge air scoop, effectively hooking the plane into the ground. So check that door before takeoff roll, kids!
-Patkat



cam  (C License)

Apr 12, 2001, 2:56 AM
Post #8 of 23 (2587 views)
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Re: reserve open in plane [In reply to] Can't Post

hi - thanks for this (and the other replies too) - what actually happened was we jumped once the guy with the reserve open was stowed on his gear at the back. Mike's notion of one person riding down with him to hold things in place just didn't occur to me (til after, when we got told how tense the ride down was - pretty obvious when u think of it!).
one thing that might be useful to think about tho: in this case only 3 out of the 5 people in the aircraft were even aware of what happened, despite everyone being 'told' - the pilot only got the part about having a passenger on the way down, the guy spotting just heard 'reserve' and checked his own gear... guess it pays to remember that it can be damn noisy in a plane with no door!



BPO  (D 87411)

Apr 12, 2001, 6:23 AM
Post #9 of 23 (2572 views)
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Hi all,

Reading this thread I thought it would make some sort of sense to remove the rig and stow it away or just sit on it... Why not do just that?
(mental note for the jumper without a rig: you just lost your privilege to jump)

Bram



Geoff

Apr 12, 2001, 6:44 AM
Post #10 of 23 (2566 views)
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You'd have to kill me to get my rig off, in the back of a small a plane with no door! even if the reserve container's open.

Geoff



Greg  (A -37958)

Apr 12, 2001, 9:17 AM
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This is SO SCARY, it has long been one of my biggest fears (at least since I started jumping). I just cringe to think of someone getting pulled out through the side of the plane, or getting extracted through the door and getting caught on the tail or something. I would think it would be a good idea to have at least one person ride down with the guy in the plane, to help him contain and control the open canopy, but, not to be cold or anything, I think the other divers on the load should be allowed to exit.

Greg A-37958



miked10270  (D 10270)

Apr 12, 2001, 12:51 PM
Post #12 of 23 (2534 views)
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Hi There,

Letting others on the load jump would depend on where they are relative to the person with the open reserve.

Even then, Personally I'd be tempted to just abort the entire lift on the grounds of safety & bring everyone down. Then score it as an "aircraft emergency" & argue for the entire lift to get their jump tickets back! This would be easier to argue if half the lift hadn't exited part way up.

At the end of the day it'd all depend on what seemed the safest course of action at the time, but if I was staying in the 'plane with an open reserve I'd want no movement & lots of help there!

Mike D10270.



Greg  (A -37958)

Apr 12, 2001, 2:02 PM
Post #13 of 23 (2522 views)
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In reply to:
Even then, Personally I'd be tempted to just abort the entire lift on the grounds of safety & bring everyone
down. Then score it as an "aircraft emergency" & argue for the entire lift to get their jump tickets back! This
would be easier to argue if half the lift hadn't exited part way up.
Great point, I was actually thinking (in my earlier post) of the other divers on the plane getting "angry" (maybe) for having to ride back down with the plane, but as you mentioned, I would agree its a pretty safe bet that the dz would honor the divers tickets on another load, more so if all rode back down.Smile

Greg A-37958



unclbennie  (B License)

Apr 12, 2001, 6:57 PM
Post #14 of 23 (2506 views)
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This summer at Richmond, my cousins reserve opened on the Casa, he was sitting near the tailgate and the door was partially open. We had the pilot shut the door, my cousin took his rig off, and went and sat on it up by the pilot. The rest of us jumped. Not the same as a cessna, but thats what we did in the CASA.
Then earlier this year he and I where on an Otter, someone kicked his pin on his main and opened his main up. He cut away, took the rig off and went and sat on his rig up near the pilot, again we all exited except him. Poor boy he missed two fun skydives Tongue
Karen



Krishan  (D 26361)

Apr 12, 2001, 9:31 PM
Post #15 of 23 (2496 views)
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Damn!!!!! Sounds like a pretty scary rig to be able to accidentally open so easily. What kind is it?



miked10270  (D 10270)

Apr 12, 2001, 10:59 PM
Post #16 of 23 (2491 views)
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Re:

Getting jump tickets back...

Look at it this way, the 'plane's down & you go to the DZO & say "Guess what... We've just saved you $50,000 (or whatever the 'plane cost)! Can we have our jump tickets back!?

Mike D10270.



Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 13, 2001, 12:06 PM
Post #17 of 23 (2472 views)
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Re: reserve open in plane [In reply to] Can't Post

true story -

we were doing some big-way up at perris, and tom allen and the cameraman were sitting on the edge of the skyvan's door. we were at about 4000 feet. the cameraman noticed his rig had been packed with the PC in the ROL position instead of the BOC, and with his wing, might have caused a PC-in-tow. he asked tom to move the PC for him. tom pulled out the PC, threaded it through the hole in his wing, and tried to stuff it back under the rig. all this was happening, of course, on the edge of the skyvan door.

melanie started craning her neck, asking "what are they doing up there?" "oh, tom's just giving him a pin check," someone said. he got the PC in place, and the dive went fine. it was eerie to see a pilot chute getting moved around while he sat on the edge, though. of course, if there is a perfect place to have a premature deployment, i guess it would be on the edge of a skyvan door - nothing but open air behind you.

-bill von


luckymatt  (C 101690)

Apr 16, 2001, 2:53 AM
Post #18 of 23 (2439 views)
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Unbelievable, I had the exact same situation on a visit to South Africa. We were in a Cessna, also with no door, and there were 2 static line jumpers to exit first. They did the exit, and then the rest of us were taken to altitude (even if it is only 9.5k in a Cessna!). Luckily at around 7k the guy sitting in front of me, got up, turned around and started talking to me. He noticed that the guy sitting against the pilot seat had his reserve popping out. The pin had been dislodged whilst leaning against the pilot seat (he was a german jumper and was borrowing dz kit). If he had just stood up when we had got to altitude, he would have definately been pulled right out of the plane.

We told him to just keep leaning back, it didn't seem safe for him to move at all, especially not take the rig off as the reserve pilot chute is spring mounted. We all decided to fly the plain down and the dz put us all on the next load.
In this situation I don't think it would have been right to climb another 2k and jump with him sitting there, and it probably wouldn't be safe to do that. Granted, if there is an accident, the less jumpers in the plane the better, but if something does go wrong, at least there is the possibility the other jumpers could prevent a big accident.
Dunno ?

lucky matt



Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Apr 16, 2001, 5:14 AM
Post #19 of 23 (2432 views)
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Re: reserve open in plane [In reply to] Can't Post

-big aircraft (CASA, etc.): I would close the door, move as far forward as possible, take the rig off and secure it, buckle in, and then ride the plane down after the jumpers exit at their normal altitude.
-small aircraft (C-182, etc.) w/in-flight door: keep the door closed, and inform the pilot what is going on. He will likely dictate what happens. It may be possible to keep the jumper belted in (preferably in the back left), remove his gear and secure it safely so everyone else can exit. Jump pilots: what do you think??
-small aircraft with no door: help the jumper contain it and LAND THE PLANE before things have a chance to get ugly.

My two cents.

Respectfully,
SP


sportjumper  (A 36302)

Apr 17, 2001, 8:48 PM
Post #20 of 23 (2390 views)
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I think that yours is the brightest post here......Makes the most sense to me....(but I'm afraid I'll have to steal the expression "brown tension")...Too funny



cdunham

Apr 19, 2001, 6:14 PM
Post #21 of 23 (2336 views)
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Does anyone here have a copy of Dan Poynter's book, <A HREF="http://www.dropzone.com/gear/Detailed/203.html" target="_new">Parachuting, the Skydiver's Handbook</A>?

If so, turn to the page that shows the picture of the plane (Cessna?) with half the fuselage ripped off at the door, and repeat after me:

"Close the door, land the plane. Close the door, land the plane"

And imagine how it must have felt to create that large tear.

This is one of the few times I would prefer to land in a "perfectly good airplane".




nubi78

May 4, 2001, 11:59 AM
Post #22 of 23 (2266 views)
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Re: reserve open in plane [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I only have 20 hours as a jump pilot... Here's what I would do.

I would Immediately slow the airplane down, and start down. NOBODY LEAVES THE AIRPLANE!!!!! Especially if there are people to block the air inside the airplane.

At the same time, tell everyone to get ready incase something bad happens. (Including myself). Get a plan of escape if something should happen. Take off the seatbelts? I don't know... maybe...

Essentially the main point to be stressed would be for me to slow the airplane down, and to have that PC darn near bolted to the airplane. If somebody jumped in this situation without my ok, I would probably deny them a flight on my plane ever again.

Be safe!!!



Joolee  (C License)

May 9, 2001, 3:51 AM
Post #23 of 23 (2201 views)
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I can remember this happening to one of the lads at the DZ, twice in fact. The first time his reserve opened as he dived out of a Cessna (without a door), the second time an instructor stayed with him in the plane and all the other jumpers got out - although I think he was due to be one of the last out anyway (and the plane had a door).




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